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US hypocrisy

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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: US hypocrisy
    Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 21:56

The definition of fascism is rather loose, as people haven't seemed to be able to agree on it. However, there are certain characteristics that people agree on.

From Wikipedia:

More generally, fascism, uncapitalized, is typified by attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life: political, social, cultural, and economic. The fascist state regulates and controls (as opposed to nationalizes) the means of production. Fascism is typified by this selective state control imposed through use or threat of force; by exaltation of the collective (or other entity, State or nation) above the individual, often taking the form of explicit populism; and by loyalty to a single leader, often to the point of a cult of personality.

Note that we are talking about control of the means of production, not nationalization, so an economy where large corporations associated with the state control the means of production is not incompatible with fascism. An authoritarian nationalistic America, where the leader is demanded undisputed loyalty, would be in my opinion dangerously close to fascism.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 07:55
I agree with Genghis here. It is definately not nice, but it is not fascism.

Fascism is often used to loosely. Many leftists tend to call most if not all rightwing dictatorships fascist, but I don't. The most important differences between fascism and rightwing authoritarianism/authoritarian conservatism are that fascists want to overthrow and change the whole society, while authoritarian conservatives prefer to keep things as they are. Seconly fascists want to integrate civil society into the state, leaving no sovereignty for churches and other organizations, which is not at all something that happens in authoritarian conservative dictatorships.
Furthermore authoritarian conservatives try to silence public opinion, while fascists want to mobilize public opinion for their support. (One could say that on this point Byzantine Emperor s fascist).

On a side note, has anybody read the Anatomy of Fascism?
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 11:34

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Furthermore authoritarian conservatives try to silence public opinion, while fascists want to mobilize public opinion for their support. (One could say that on this point Byzantine Emperor s fascist).

Will you and Decebal please stop reading what you want into my comments?  You are like a couple of CNN "experts" who give their analysis in Wolf Blitzer's "Situation Room", but their analysis only ends up being a bunch of random sound bytes taken out of context in order that they might make them say what they want.

I never said that the President should bring in the Marines or order local SWAT teams to come in and shut down the news agencies by force so as to silence them.  Nor did I say that I advocated the use of force to silence the opposition.  I just gave my heavy critical opinion of the American media, saying that by far I think they are doing more bad than good and have other motives besides presenting the news and "informing" the public.  I don't know how I can make it more explicit.  In the end, I like having CNN and the New York Times and others around, it puts a blatant and naked face on the "ultra left wing" (which I would say is farther to the left than I am to the right) in this country for everyone to witness and to form their own opinion about.  That's if they can first tell that it is more than just plain "news."

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  Quote lennel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 13:37
In essence the US wants to do whats right, but self-interest will usually override ideals.  This can be said about the best of nations.  It was summed up best at the beginning "if some other nation were in the US's place it wouldnt be any better"

Edited by lennel
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 22:58
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor


Ha ha, yeah, it is good for the entertainment value.



I can't stand idiots like Wolf Blitzer and Christiana Amanpour! It
is so apparent that their only motive is to portray the president in as
negative of a light as possible. They could care less about informing
the public or just providing the news. To them its all a big game and
they try to "one-up" each other in their Bush-hating and America-hating
editorials.



Ya, but its better than the presidential ass-kissing handed out by
Fox News on a nightly basis. I used to pick the lesser of two evils and
watch CNN, but i dont even watch news on t.v. anymore...it became
redundant for me.





Now come on Fox is liberal but for a true editorial on Bush tune in onto the Michael Savage Show. He is not a true conservative and his spending will break our nation. I think Pat Buchanan has been right all along.
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 23:10
HI Strategos
I have seen too many of your other posts to think you are an American hater but I consider you very patriotic.
The US, full of its ideas of democracy and freedom throughout the world, has been very hypocritacal at many times in its history, especially recently.

The US wants to spread peace throughout the Middle East but will BREAK ITS BACK for countries like Saudi Arabia and to some degree Kuwait.

This is true- they still enslave people and persecute Christians and Hindu workers there. (see www.persecution.org)

The US supported the coup in the 1960's-1970's that overthrough the Government of Greece.

This is true but I do not understand the full story but Greece is sort of a sacred cow for me. Next to America I am very patrotic to Greece even though I don't always see eye to eye with my fellow Greeks.

The fact that Lebanon still faces aggression from Israel which wants Syria to be treated as a pariah state; or that Iran and Syria are accused of possession of weapons of mass destruction while Israel is permitted to protect its arsenal of WMDs is all part of the hypocrisy that characterises US foreign policy.

Here I do not agree and Israel is simply defending itself against terrorism and great odds.



It is very hypocritical for the US government to claim to promote democracy and freedom throughout the world yet when it comes to the nation of Cyprus expediency and a double standard takes precedence over the lofty ideals of liberty.
Need to look at this more

There are many other examples which can be talked about, but I guess this goes for many countries. But I expected the great nation of the US to start to live up to these ideas of freedom and democracy, and not bow down to hystaria and the "oil kingdoms."

What nation has ever live to perfection and I agree we have a dark side but what nation or empire in history hasn't. The oil companies have us poor peasants by the throat!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2005 at 07:28
Originally posted by eaglecap

Now come on Fox is liberal

explain
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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2005 at 17:03
O these topics i love, a post per minute and i stop reading them from the second reply to a page long quote i see. But i hardly think reading anything on this topic would change my opinion, only lengthen my post into pointlesness.

My simple view: Having free elections, even those were manipulated in the 2000. presidential elections if i remember all the comotion right, doesn't make any democracy for the United States. They make right for might and saying that "everybody who has been #1 has done it" is a simple deflection of reality. Nazi Germany just did what he thought was right. The German people might have felt good, stop moaning in them. And don't say "what, how dare you compare the US with the third reich, they were killing for fun, we for freedom and justice." You can go and kill random people across the Globe any day of the week whenever a senator or two sees a threat to an area of influence for YOUR "democracy". No right or far off reason. I wont justify a navy seals head shot to a gas chamber of Auschwitz, i'll put them in the same sack.
If almost every American feels that the opposers are blowing smoke and envy out of our rectums, tear every "democracy" out of your constitution. This is where the HYPOCRISY comes in. You call yourself leading democratic force protecting the world while attacking on vendettas and personal ignorance for no threat to yourselves. America hasn't had to use any force to protect its sovereignity or power since Pearl Harbour and the following fights agains the Japs, give me a break. Today it has become a simple billionaire effect - we have a billion dollars, the other guys one million put together, we still need more, but nobody knows the reason why. A simple power trip effect.
If the United States of America is a democracy then every state since ancient Sumeria and Iran were democracies, they lived by the same principals our American members so "democratically" do - Anything to keep us alive, afloat, it is normal.
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  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2005 at 17:59

I dont agree with you at all. Your post is rather ran-together so I only picked up on a few of your points. As far as having everybody believe in our campaigns? And whats with comparing the US to Nazi Germany? The US doesnt have to have the entire world buy into their campaigns. And you say that that the US hasnt had to use military power since WWII?? Korea and Vietnam were supposed to be for communism, either way it was a campaign for the people of Vietnam and Korea as well as for the security of the US and all other free countries against the threat of global communist takeover. Panama, mogadishu..etc..etc.. ya maybe youre right maybe the US didnt neccesarily have to get involved.....but what would the world think if we didnt??

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 17:27
I didn't say the US hasn't used military power since 1945., i  meant it hasn't had to use it for self-defence since then. Yes, kicking commie ass is great, but too many of these military steps were for economic benefit in a certain area, not regarding if the people were under communists or democrats. I bet Mixcoatl knows a lot about US involvment in Central-America. Nothing for the people was done there, only fattening the wallet of America happened there. The US is only against dictatorships who are against him or stop licking his ass. Dictatorships become these evil axis members from the day your president decides so, until then, anything goes. That is hypocrisy.
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 17:47
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

I like having CNN and the New York Times and others around, it puts a blatant and naked face on the "ultra left wing" (which I would say is farther to the left than I am to the right) in this country for everyone to witness and to form their own opinion about. That's if they can first tell that it is more than just plain "news."



If it makes you feel happy, people in the left think that CNN, the New York Times and other around lean to the right.
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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 18:07

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg


If the United States of America is a democracy then every state since ancient Sumeria and Iran were democracies, they lived by the same principals our American members so "democratically" do - Anything to keep us alive, afloat, it is normal.

There's nothing that says a country with a democratic system of government has to have a nice, idealistic, human rights promoting foreign policy.

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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 18:19
Originally posted by Mixcoatl


eaglecap wrote:
Now come on Fox is liberal

explain


I need an explanation also. Calling Fox News liberal is like calling John Lennon an ultra-conservative.
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 21:43
COMPARED TO MICHAEL SAVAGE IT IS SOMEWHAT LIBERAL.
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Aydin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2005 at 02:32

Originally posted by Genghis

The U.S. is doing what it needs to, defending it's interests.  A country should do nothing else except that.

 

At the expense of others? At the expense of International laws? At the expense of world peace?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2005 at 09:48
Originally posted by eaglecap

COMPARED TO MICHAEL SAVAGE IT IS SOMEWHAT LIBERAL.

compared to Hitler Mussolini is somewhat liberal as well
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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2005 at 22:55
Originally posted by Aydin

Originally posted by Genghis

The U.S. is doing what it needs to, defending it's interests.  A country should do nothing else except that.

 

At the expense of others? At the expense of International laws? At the expense of world peace?

Yes, the world is a dog eat dog place, the only thing that keeps people from bullying you is bullying them.

International Law and World Peace are just useless buzzwords, they sound nice but in the end they don't mean anything.

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  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2005 at 00:24
I partly agree with you there genghis. International Law is definitely a myth because well .. laws change with each country and of course this is hard to enforce. If such thing as International Law existed George Bush would be in prison but instead he is smoking a cigar in his office.

World Peace is a buzzword because it hasn't been achieved yet.  I don't know if it will be achieved soon but I believe we will have a time not too long into the future of relative prolonged peace between nations. Sometimes we have to stop and think why we are fighting these modern wars and they are getting less and less about ideology but more for materialistic profit.


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Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2005 at 00:26
Thanks for your agreement, but I would say wars today are fought for much the same reasons as they have been since times immemorable.
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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2005 at 03:45
International law is nonsense. Many countries can get away with many things as long as they do not try to interfere with the US. Most other countries will not take serious actions. So for all nations: Avoid the US, and you can do mostly what you want(to some degrees of course)
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