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north africa: in the islamic world, but not really the arab......

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  Quote maersk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: north africa: in the islamic world, but not really the arab......
    Posted: 01-Oct-2004 at 01:03

contrary to what many people thin (at least the ones i know) the majority of people in north africa are berbers, not arabs, yet that fact escapes almost everyone i know..........just cause their muslim (for the most part, althought this wasent always the case, another misconception ill save for another thread) and wear clothing similar to those peoples of the arabian peninsula and live in the same kind of aird environment, people automatically equate them with the peoples of the middle east.....

 

 

gets annoying sometimes...

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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2004 at 01:55

Ya, being Muslim is an obvious factor, but i think an even bigger factor is that they all speak Arabic. But ethnically the majority of them are definitely not Arab.

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2004 at 16:33

they are different...but I cant tell the difference

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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2004 at 14:31
I can tell the difference, the native clothes and physical outlook of North African Berbers are quiet different.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 21:08
ahh but cna you pass the ultimate test...telling chinese, koreans, and japanese apart???
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 13:18
Uhm, I remember mamaging to make some differences in such a test
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 02:23
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

Ya, being Muslim is an obvious factor, but i think an even bigger factor is that they all speak Arabic. But ethnically the majority of them are definitely not Arab.



I'm seen this thread so i thought i'd put some info for ya.

I'm a berber though i like to be called an "Amazigh". I'm not an arab and i'm a native north african. I have a mother tongue and in fact my whole city speaks in "Tamazight" with a tarifit dialect which is totally different from arabic. There are different dialects depends in the country your talking about but in morocco the 3 major dialects are "tarifit", "Tamazight" and "tassoussit". In algeria for instance there is "kabyle" dialect.

Even when it comes to the look we look more meditteranean. I'm white with bown eyes and hair. I have an uncle who's red!! the amazighs to the south are more dark and black. We're definitly mixed after the many empires that invaded north africa. but we somehow managed to retain our culture even though the last ppl to invade which are arabs tried and are still trying to wipe out culture or at least to falsify it.

so I'm definitly different from arabs in terms of the look and the culture
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 03:01

well the official language or the first language there is Arabic

they are part of the Arabian group of countries

so they are Arabic countries even if some of them has orgin which is not arabic

BTW not all countries in the middle east are arabic. i mean countries such as Iran

Iraq has a big non arab majority and Iraq is considered Arabic country

 

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 04:05
Originally posted by azimuth

well the official language or the first language there is Arabic

they are part of the Arabian group of countries

so they are Arabic countries even if some of them has orgin which is not arabic

BTW not all countries in the middle east are arabic. i mean countries such as Iran

Iraq has a big non arab majority and Iraq is considered Arabic country



Why are you trying to make us arabs ?? We're not arabs get over it. yes the countries' first language is arabic because we're muslims and arabic is the language of islam but that doesnt mean we are arabs.

however hopefully we will soon get our equal rights in morocco they started teaching tamazight in schools it's just a matter of time morocco will be considered an amazigh-arab country.


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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 04:13
Originally posted by Amazigh


Why are you trying to make us arabs ?? We're not arabs get over it. yes the countries' first language is arabic because we're muslims and arabic is the language of islam but that doesnt mean we are arabs.

i didnt say you are arabic i said the countris in north africa are arabic


 

Originally posted by Amazigh

however hopefully we will soon get our equal rights in morocco they started teaching tamazight in schools it's just a matter of time morocco will be considered an amazigh-arab country.

yea say that to the king

 

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 04:56
in terms of attitudes and civilizations I think the north Africa is easily my prefrence over the Middle East
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  Quote Emile Boutros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 09:53

It cannot be deneied that most people in Algeria identify with the Arab culture, heritage and cause. I am born in Algeria, I am Arab. Of coarse there are minorities. But they are maybe 25% at the most and even then this is because people CHOOSE to be. Only the nomads and the Kabyle are true Beber undisputed. The "city" Berbers that try to say Algeria is not ARab are mostly "converts", they are born as Arabs and then make themselves Berber because they think it is cool. Morocco is majorty Berber. Algeria is not. Tunisia is not. Libya is not. All North Africa does not have Berbers and most of it is Arab.

 

"contrary to what many people thin (at least the ones i know) the majority of people in north africa are berbers, not arabs, yet that fact escapes almost everyone i know..........just cause their muslim (for the most part, althought this wasent always the case, another misconception ill save for another thread) and wear clothing similar to those peoples of the arabian peninsula and live in the same kind of aird environment, people automatically equate them with the peoples of the middle east....."

You are making an assumption here. Most are Muslim, most are also Arab. Mauritania is mostly ARabic speaking and ethnically mixed, Arab/Berber. It is not because people outside associate us with the Middle East, it is because we do it ourselves! Where is ARab League meeting this year? Algiers! How dare you say we are not Arabs. We are mostly Arab in selfID except Morocco. Morocco is like 60% Berber. This attitude, this Berber nationalist attitude that is mostly faluse in its presumptions is annoying. It is not ALL Arab but itis mostly Arab. Syria is not even all Arab, neither is Egypt or Jordan. Arab is a dispersed group, we live in many places, Africa, Asia, America, Europe. Where we are majority we claim as our own like Europeans claim the Americas as "Western" North Africa is mostly Arab, not all but mostly.

 

"yes the countries' first language is arabic because we're muslims and arabic is the language of islam but that doesnt mean we are arabs."

In Algeria it is because most people wanted to erradicate French and go back to the language most people knew. Most people did not know Kabyle or Berber language befre the 1980s and 1990s. It is a revival.Most knew at least some Arabic before the revolution. Even Kabyles fought and said "our religion is Islam, our language is Arabic and our country is algeria". Algeria is Arab but some of it is not. Most of it is. Arabic is part of the Arab identity. I am Algerian but not Muslim and I am still Arab. I speak it because my ansestors did and because it is the language of my nation. Berbers who say they are not Arabs are not Arabs but those who say they are Arabs are Arabs. You are not Arab and neither are other Berbers but people in Algeria, Mauritania, etc who think in the berber nationalist mindset are few except for those in the Kabyle who I think need to fight for more stake  but not autonomous, that is ridiculous. They want to be separate from Algeria, his cannot be allowed what if you are Arab and live in Kayble? Like my grandparents? It is not fair, they should have equality of language but not taking territory from Algeria. I don't cinsider Morocco an Arab country though itis ruled by Arabs who act poorly and reflect badly on the others. They invade Algeria, they invade Sahara, they suppress people for ethnicity, they forsake other Arabs for westerners etc.

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  Quote Emile Boutros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 09:57

"Ya, being Muslim is an obvious factor, but i think an even bigger factor is that they all speak Arabic. But ethnically the majority of them are definitely not Arab."


Most Arabs are not Arab by blood. They are Arabized many years ago and take being Arab as their own. Thisis how Palestine beecame arab and Sudan (in the north). Sudanese Arabs look like the blackest of blacks. But they are Arab nonetheless. Most Algerians will say they are Arabs and will fight in Arab causes (many Alerians fought in IRan-Iraq wwar stupidly for the Arab nation) Most North Africans consider themselves Arabs and this is why they are ARabs. It is a matter of what they call themselves not what foreigners call them.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 11:11

many Alerians fought in IRan-Iraq wwar stupidly for the Arab nation

It is true, Iran really fought against Arab world not just Iraq.

I think in 705 Arabs conquered Maghrib (region of North Africa bordering the Mediterranean Sea) and this region was part of the Arab empires (Umayyad and Abbasid) for about 50 years and then they were Persians who established the first independent Maghribi empire in 757 and ruled there for at least 150 years. The Persian empire was called Rustamid and was found by Abd ar-Rahman son of Rustam son of Bahram (Some says Bahram was the same the great Sassanid commander Bahram Chubin). This man has still many followers in the north Africa such as the Mozabites in Algeria.
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 12:51
Largley Arabic speaking with an infusion of Arabic culture, but not 'Arabian' if one must be pedantic.
IIRC, Berbers make up about half the Morrocan population, but less so in other N. African countries.

ahh but cna you pass the ultimate test...telling chinese, koreans, and japanese apart???


Can i look at their surnames?
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  Quote Emile Boutros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 20:19

"Largley Arabic speaking with an infusion of Arabic culture, but not 'Arabian' if one must be pedantic."

Arabian is only on the Penninsula. Thus, Azimuth would be Arabian and I would be Maghrebi, but we are still both Arabs. There is nothing Arabian about the Maghreb but there is much that is Arab. There is the very useless 'Union of the Arab Maghreb" of Libya, Tunsia, Algeria, Morocco and I think Mauritania. Also I think Morocco (national geographic says at least) 60% Berber. I have heard even higher from Berber/Tamazigh nationalist sources.

 

You can tell who is an Arab and who is not by the name, either first or last and by asking someone.

 

"It is true, Iran really fought against Arab world not just Iraq."

Yes, it was a "race war" more than anything else. There is no other way to explain such stupidity. And it is shameful that only one Arab state actually said it was wrong with meaning (Syria).

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 20:23
Thats pretty much what i said no?
And yeah, i'm fairly sure Mauritania in that union.
As for Morocco, things get very muddle when you have Berbers who speak only Arabic, where do you put them? Depends on who you ask. Meh, when politics and ethnicity mix, bullsh*t follows.
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 06:12

Originally posted by Tobodai

ahh but cna you pass the ultimate test...telling chinese, koreans, and japanese apart???

i can tell if i heard them speaking

 

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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 19:37
Originally posted by Emile Boutros

"Ya, being Muslim is an obvious factor, but i think an even bigger factor is that they all speak Arabic. But ethnically the majority of them are definitely not Arab."


Most Arabs are not Arab by blood. They are Arabized many years ago and take being Arab as their own. Thisis how Palestine beecame arab and Sudan (in the north). Sudanese Arabs look like the blackest of blacks. But they are Arab nonetheless. Most Algerians will say they are Arabs and will fight in Arab causes (many Alerians fought in IRan-Iraq wwar stupidly for the Arab nation) Most North Africans consider themselves Arabs and this is why they are ARabs. It is a matter of what they call themselves not what foreigners call them.

Being an Arab is an ethnicity, not a nationality or a culture. You can only be an Arab by blood no matter what they or other people call themself. Most people don't know this but a lot of Arabization of middle East and North Africa happen in the past century by the ex-colonial powers. Arab took side with them and naturally were put in power when the colonial powers left. Importing someone from what is now Saudi Arabia to be the first ruler of Iraq probably was not the first logical choice. In the North Africa the rulers are mainly ethnic Arab and the official language ( not the native language) is Arabic but majority of people are not ethnic Arabs. The real ethnic Arabs are only the Afro-Semite people of western Arabian peninsula.

 

 

 



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  Quote Emile Boutros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2005 at 18:49

"Being an Arab is an ethnicity, not a nationality or a culture. You can only be an Arab by blood no matter what they or other people call themself. "

 

This is incorrect. Arab is a culture, very much so and it is an ethnicity. If someone says they are an Arab, and have commited themselves to it and lived it they are an Arab. Arab is not by blood, Arab is by history and in many places by choice. This is why you see Arabs in the Sudan looking like black Africans, Arabs in Lebanon looking like Greeks, Arabs in Morocco and Algeria and Mauritania looking as anything and everything in between. You are telling me that the Arabs of Sudan are not Arabs? When they attach themselves to the Arabic language, culture and history? That Egyptians are not Arabs though most of them do the same as the before mentioned Sudanese? You are telling me that an outsider knows who is an Arab and who is not an Arab better than an Arab himself?

." Arab took side with them and naturally were put in power when the colonial powers left. Importing someone from what is now Saudi Arabia to be the first ruler of Iraq probably was not the first logical choice. In the North Africa the rulers are mainly ethnic Arab and the official language ( not the native language) is Arabic but majority of people are not ethnic Arabs. The real ethnic Arabs are only the Afro-Semite people of western Arabian peninsula. "

 

Again, you are not speaking from the standpoint of someone who has lived in the Arab world or has not been a part of this life/lifestyle. The Arabs in the Maghreb are just as Arab as those in the Levant and the Penninsula. There is no "real Arab" today. All the Arabs have mixed blood. There is not an Arab of pure stock, not even in Yemen or Saudi Arabia. I was in Jeddah two years ago, I saw Arabs who were as black as night and told me their tribes and famiels had been there since before any of the oldest folks could remember. Arabic is the native langauge of most Algerians and Tunisians and Libyans and Mauritanians. They have become Arabs. The idea that this identity is going anywhere one put forth by foreigners, mostly Westerners in an effort to tailor us to their own wishes. It is different from the "Berberist" claim which is actually legitamate because it calls for the revival of these previous identities among those who never really Arabized (or who want to deArabize) for local concerns. Your claim is just trying to impose a western mode of thinking to an area where it is alien. We do not make color or blood castes among Arabs. We are not like Germans or Swedes. Being Arab is a culture, is a choice with many younger folks, it is a heritage of personal identification. The idea that it is anything else is outdated and foreign.

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