Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

anyone have info on tibetan/arab conflicts in central asia??

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
ihsan View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 831
  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: anyone have info on tibetan/arab conflicts in central asia??
    Posted: 27-Sep-2004 at 15:54
Sharrukin and Warhead are quiet knowledged on this period, they can help you.
[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

Qaghan of the Vast Steppes

Steppes History Forum
Back to Top
maersk View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 04-Sep-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 85
  Quote maersk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2004 at 21:22
i had heard that songtsan gampo had penatrated as far as ferghana in the 650's, i believe that the arabs where then penatrating into the same area (or at least transoxania) at the same time. was there ever a direct clash between arab/muslim and tibetan forces?
"behold, vajik, khan of the magyars, scourge of the pannonian plain!"
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2004 at 22:08

Quite a while ago I translated  into Russian a couple of messages related to the Battle of Talas from the old forum.  Luckily, I saved the originals posted by the chinese reader.

Here is what I have:

The Battle of Talas according to Chinese sources


The Battle of Talas


In the year 751 AD (the tenth year of the Tianbao period of Emperor Tang Xuanzong), the battle of Talas River was fought near today's Kirghizia in Kazakhstan.


The official cause of the battle was due to the Chinese vassal of Tashkent in Central Asia not paying enough respect fit for an vassalage to the Chinese empire. As a result, the Tang Chinese Viceroy of Anxi in Central Asia, Gao Xianzhi, invaded the state of Tashkent. The Tashkent rulers pleaded for peace, to which Viceroy Gao initially agreed, but soon he went against his earlier promise and sacked the city of Tashkent by force. The city was pillaged by the Chinese army, the men were snatched away while the women, children and the elderly were killed. The king of Tashkent was also beheaded. The prince of Tashkent, who luckily got away, begged the Abbasid Dynasty of the Islamic empire for help. At this crucial time Chinese intelligence reported that the Arab Muslims intended to strike the four Chinese districts in Xiyu (in modern day Xinjiang province and parts of Kazakhstan and Afghanistan). Viceroy Gao decided to strike the Arabs first in a preliminary attack. Due to the influence of Tang China in Central Asia at the time, troops from Central Asian states that were allied to China such as the Qarluq Turks and the state of Ferghana joined the Tang Chinese forces. Altogether the Tang Chinese army and allies numbered more than 30,000 men, two-thirds of which were Chinese. The Arab army numbered about 70,000. The Tang army under the leadership of Gao Xianzhi travelled more than 700 Chinese miles and eventually it met with the Arab Muslim army at Talas. Thus a famous and important battle in Asian and world history - the battle of Talas River, took place.


The mutual struggle during the battle lasted for five days, during which the Tang Chinese ally of Qarluq Turks saw that the situation was gradually going against the Chinese army and thus defected and went over to the Arab side. Gao's forces were attacked from both sides by the Arabs and the Qarluq Turks and as a result the Chinese army could not hold on and was routed. Two generals serving under Viceroy Gao, General Li Siye and General Duan Xiushi gathered the scattered troops and escaped towards the Anxi region in Tang-controlled Xiyu. In the process of retreat troops of the Ferghana allies, who were also retreating, crowded and blocked the path of the Tang army. Concerned about the Arab forces chasing them, General Li Siye ordered his men to kill the Ferghana troops in order to get away. Hundreds of Ferghana soldiers were killed before the Tang army got away. Earlier on when the battle was being lost, General Li advised Viceroy Gao to run away. General Duan condemned him saying: "To retreat due to fear of the enemy is not courage, to save oneself by sacrificing the army is not benevolence." In the end Gao Xianzhi escaped with a few remaining troops. Thus the battle ended with a victory for the Arab Muslims over the attacking Tang Chinese. Almost all of the Tang army's 30,000 men were killed or captured and only a small minority got away.

My own English translation of this account: (Not necessarily 100% accurate )

The person that Gao Xianzhi had captured was the King of Tashkent. The Prince of Tashkent escaped away to the various barbarian states and among them he spread words about Xianzhi's unfaithfulness and greed. The various barbarian states all became very angry at this, and with the Islamic empire in the lead, they secretly planned to strike the four districts in Xiyu. After Xianzhi heard about this, he attacked the Islamic empire with an army of 30,000 men, consisting of both Chinese and non-Chinese troops. His force travelled a great distance of 700 Chinese miles before encountering the Islamic army at the city of Talas. The battle lasted for five days. During this time the Qarluq Turks in the Tang army defected and they attacked the Tang forces together with the Islamic army. Xianzhi was decisively defeated. Most of his men were lost and only a few thousand remained. Then the Right Guard General Li Siye advised Xianzhi to escape away. The retreating path was narrow and difficult to travel, and the allied Ferghana troops were in front of them, their men and horses blocking the way. Siye went ahead, and with a large club he ordered his men to kill all the obstructing Ferghana soldiers. The men and horses were all slaughtered before Xianzhi's forces could go through.
The officers and soldiers of the Tang army were all scattered around and could not find each other. Then the Vice-General Duan Xiushi of Xinyang heard the sound of Siye. After they met Xiushi condemned him, saying: "To hide from the enemy and escape away is not courage, to save oneself by abandoning the army is not benevolence. Now fortunately you have been able to escape, but do you not feel any sense of guilt and shame?" Siye bowed to Xiushi and thanked him for his rebuttal. He then stayed behind to hold off enemy troops that were running after them. He also gathered up the scattered soldiers before returning to Anxi. All the soldiers that had ran away were excused from any punishment. After returning to Anxi, Siye told Xianzhi about what happened. Xianzhi therefore rewarded Duan Xiushi, putting him in charge of various forces in the provincial capital and making him a judge in the army.

http://www.kyrgyz.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=524

I don't think it mentions tibetans or tibetan/arab conflicts specificly though. Nevertheless, chinese accounts might shed some light on what was going on in Central Asia back in those days.

To tell you the truth, I never heard of tibetan/arab conflicts in Central Asia. As far as I know tibetans and arabs were allies against the chinese.


I also found this introductory article about Kyrgyzstan by the canadian traveler, Bernard  Cloutier:

Kyrgyzstan occupies a strategic position astride the Tian Shan Range separating the Tarim basin to the east from the Fergana valley to the west and both from the vast asian steppes to the north. It is therefore not surprising that the Issyk Kul region has been the stage for much of the action in that part of the world.

Early residents were the indo-European Saka nomads who opposed and finally stopped Alexander's eastward penetration into Asia in the 4th century BC. The Saka eventually had to submit to turkic speaking tribes who occupied the Issik Kul area until they fell to the Tang Dynasty Chinese in the 7th century. Tang expansion reached as far as Tashkent and Gilgit but diplomatic blunders by a Chinese general provoked a coalition of Turks, Arabs and Tibetans who trounced the Tang in the Talas valley (in north-west Kyrgyzstan) and drove them out of Central Asia in 751.

Muslim Qarakhanid Turks then controlled the Issik Kul plateau until they were overcome in 1130 by the Buddhist Kara Khitan mongols in who had been pushed out of northern China by the Djurchen tribes who came from the Ussuri river region of Manchuria.

The Kara-Khitan submitted to Genghis Khan and the Issik Kul plateau became part of the Chaghatai Mohgolistan which, having survived the advent of Tamerlane, became host to the Kyrgyz-Kazaks after their rebellious split with the sedentary Uzbek.

Today's Kyrgyz have come a long way from their nomadic origins on the shores of the siberian Ienissei river more than 15 centuries ago. 


http://www.berclo.net/page97/97en-kyrgyzstan.html

 



Edited by Elteber
Back to Top
warhead View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 00:18

i" had heard that songtsan gampo had penatrated as far as ferghana in the 650's, i believe that the arabs where then penatrating into the same area (or at least transoxania) at the same time. was there ever a direct clash between arab/muslim and tibetan forces?"

 

No, Gampo didn't reach anywhere near ferghana. Tubo only entered the Kasmir region in 662 a.d. The first instance of Tibetan participation in Ferghana was an alliance with the turk in driving a raiding Tang army out in 705. While the arabs are said to have joned Tibet in the invasion of Ferghana and occupied it. But there isn't any record of them having open conflict during this period.(since their border didn't meet, thats no surprise) However, once Tang power collapsed and Tibet expanded into central asia, it went into indirect conflict. For example, it is said that the Tang minister Li Mi suggested a grand alliance plan to ally with the Arabs, Nan Zhao, Tien Zu(india) and Uighurs to contain the Tibetans, no mention of arab participation, but its possible that they did attack. The first(and only) direct mentioning of a conflict was in Arab sources, When Layth rebelled against Harun Al rashid, Tibetan troops have come to his aid. After Al mamun came to the throne, he made a jihad against the countries of central asia. Directed against kabul, Qarluqs, Autrarbandah and Tibet. The arab general al Fadl defeated all four, and in the case of Tibet, its said that it led a campaign to kashmir and the realm of Tibet(source: Azraqi) he won in wakhan and Balur, sent the captured tibetan commander and cavalrymen back to Baghdad. But Chinese sources have mentioned indirect conflicts, for example when Tang troops defeated Tibetan troops in 801 a.d., the general mention that they captured arabs in the tibetan army which might have been captured war prisoners when fighting against tibet. Its likely that Tibetan power during this period has projected quite far west and has come to conflict with the Arabs a few times, but only in skirmishes and not any large scale battle.

 

btw, where is sharukin? haven't seen him in a while.

Back to Top
Evildoer View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 434
  Quote Evildoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 17:26
Who were the Nan Zhao? Burmese?
Back to Top
warhead View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2004 at 13:37
No, they are in yunnan, and are ancestors of Thai.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.