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Italic peoples
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Degredado View Drop Down
Consul
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Posts: 366 		  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Italic peoples
    Posted: 14-Oct-2004 at 12:11

I wasn't necessarily asking about linguistics, though I do appreciate the info given. All I wanted to know if there were common aspects of spirituality and culture amongst the italic peoples, the same way that there's a common culture and spirituality amongst celtic peoples and germanic peoples.

And Serge, Portuguese isn't really my native language, though my ancestry comes from Portugal. My first language is English.

And the map is cool!
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Posts: 485 		  Quote Serge L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2004 at 09:31

Ancient Italy was populated by Celts (Gauls) in the North West, Veneti in the North-East, Etruscan in the Centrte-North, Proto-Italics (among which the Romans and the a/m Oscans, Umbrians, Volscian, etc.) in the Center South, Sardinians in their island and Greek colonizers on the Shores of the South and Sicily.

Here you can see an interesting map:

Coming from this excellent site:

http://www.evolpub.com/LCA/VTLhome.html

...where you can also find many examples and data on the languages of ancient Italy.

As mentioned yetr, the Proto-Italians (Latins, Faliscans, Oscans, etc.) seemed to be quite closely related in language, Religion (essentially pagan-animistic) and culture, while the Etruscans seemed to come from a completely different stock.

However, large contacts existed among the various people existing, and the most eveident proof of that is the fact they all used slightly different alphabets all derived from the Greek one (see again the a/m site).

 

[Edit]

Maybe Degredado will like this language tree, I just found on this site:

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~marisal/ie/italic.html

spanning from Proto-Italic to Modern Romance languages, including his native Portuguese:

 

                            Proto-Italic
        _______________|_________________
                |                   |
        Latino-Faliscan                               Osco-Umbrian
    ___________|__________      &n bsp;      __________|__________
   |           ; |          |                 |          |          |                     I
Italo-     S Romance  E Romance    Oscan     Umbrian   Volscian etc.
Western  _____|_____  (Rumanian)
   |     |           ; |
   |  Sardinian  Corsican
   |___________
   |                     |
Western        Italian
   |______________________________
   |                                                          |
Gallo-Romance                 Ibero-Romance
   |_______                  _______|________
   |       |           ;    |       |        |           ;   
French Rhaeto-Romance  Spanish  Catalan  Portuguese



Edited by Serge L
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2004 at 10:35
This was part of the quote from the dictionary article.  Based on incidents from sober history, they were simply sent anywhere else, away from the parent tribe.  We read that they conquered Campania, Lucania, Bruttium, and Apulia from populations already in those regions.  Although the Sabelli seemed to have originated from the Sabines, the majority of these "Sacred Springs" seem to have originated from Samnium.  Perhaps the Samnites suffered from more "distress" than other Italic peoples.
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Posts: 1803 		  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2004 at 02:28
Sharukkin, when you say "the humans, when of age, were sent away",where were they sent to.. just away from the populous? Atleast what is your presumption?
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2004 at 23:11

Building on Mixcoatl's language list, it is to be noted how the Romans viewed the other Italic peoples.  The Romans called all the Oscan-speaking peoples collectively as Sabelli and their language, Oscan, due to the fact that the first Sabelli they encountered in the south in Campania were called the Osci.  They viewed all Sabelli as descendants of the Sabines, and in fact, the Sabelli called themselves the Safineis.  The Sabelli included the Sabines, Samnites, Mamertini, Oscans, Bruttians, Lucanians, and Frentani, among others.   What encouraged the multiplicity of Sabelli tribes is their collective ritual called the ver sacrum otherwise known as the Sacred Spring. 

According to The Oxford Classical Dictionary, (Third Edition, 1996):

"In times of distress all produce of the spring (or the whole year) was consecrated to a deity, primarily Mars.  The animals were sacrified; the humans, when of age, were sent away.  This controlled overpopulation led by a god or totemic animals the sacrani (the 'devoted') founded new communities:"  The article explains that to a much lesser degree, even the Romans practiced the ritual, although the only recorded instance took place in 217 BC. 

Also, as a follow-up to what Mixcoatl said regarding the Venetic language, due to improved readings of the known corpus of 250+ Venetic inscriptions, we now know that not only was Venetic not an Illyrian language but an Italic language, but also that Venetic was actually closest to Latin, than to any other Italic language.  It is therefore considered a Latino-Faliscan (or Latinian) language. 

http://iranianlanguages.com/indo-european.htm
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Posts: 1803 		  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2004 at 15:17
just curious, what is the ratio between Italic/Germanic in English?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2004 at 15:04
Originally posted by Degredado

I've tried that, but I can't find the common denominator for each group, including the Romans.


Originally posted by Wikipedia


The Italic subfamily is a member of the Centum branch of the Indo-European language group. Italic has two branches:

  • Sabellic including:
    • Oscan, spoken in the south-central region of the Italian peninsula
    • Umbrian (not to be confused with the modern Umbrian dialect of Italian), spoken in the north-central region
  • Latino-Faliscan including:
    • Faliscan - spoken in the area around Falerii Veteres (modern Civita Castellana) north of the city of Rome
    • Latin, originally spoken in west-central Italy - (SIL Code, LTN; ISO 639-1 code, la; ISO 639-2 code, lat)
I think this list misses a few languages, IIRC Venetic was also an Italic language.
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Posts: 38 		  Quote faram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2004 at 05:56

I think the italics never seen themselves as a whole, before the social war.

I thougth that the Romans saw people who lived in the Lazio as near relatives, but I'm not sure, I also think that at the beginning Romans didn't see the italics as his equals.

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Posts: 366 		  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 13:53
I've tried that, but I can't find the common denominator for each group, including the Romans.
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Posts: 831 		  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2004 at 15:01
Perhaps you should make individual searchs for each people.
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Posts: 366 		  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 09:12
What? No answer? Where are the Italians?
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Posts: 366 		  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2004 at 14:36

I've read essays about Germanic peoples. These essays usually highlighted what the different German tribes had in common with each other, even though each tribe spoke a different language and lived in a different cultural area.

The same could be said about the Celts

In spite of my efforts, I've never been able to find any studies about the Italic people as a whole. Rome has apparently eclipsed the Samnites, Umbrians, etc. But what did these different peoples (Romans included) have in common? And I mean culturally, religiously, etc.? I know that Mars for the Samnites was Memerte, but I know little else. Does anyone know anything?



Edited by Degredado
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