Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedPlace of cats and dogs in Islam.

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Spartakus View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
Direct Link To This Post Topic: Place of cats and dogs in Islam.
    Posted: 05-Dec-2005 at 16:25
I saw a TV show once about the cats of Egypt.It characteristicaly said that they have founded their lost greatness.Also i've noticed that dogs are being treated as inferior and "dirty" beings comparing to cats who have a lot better treatment by Egyptians.My question is,whether this situation is a law of the Curan or if it's simply a tradition.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2005 at 16:35
I think it must be an Egyptian tradition. It's known that Egyptians loved and even "worshipped" cats before modern humanocentric religions came around. Cats are very practical anyhow: they keep the house clean of mice, rats and other pests. 

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
kotumeyil View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 21-Jun-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1494
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2005 at 16:37

The cats were holy creatures in the ancient Egypt. They were thought to have divine features. It was believed that having a cat at home would bring happiness and AFAIK they had a cat-looking God. That tradition may be originated from those ancient times. As the dogs are the natural "enemies" of the cats...

And I don't think that anything bad for the dogs takes place in Islamic rules...

[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2005 at 16:47

Depends on which brand of Islam you look at. The Koran talks about a dog with the dwellers (sleepers) of the cave (8:9-8:24). The dog was their companion.

18:18 And you would think they are awake while they are asleep. And We turn them on the right-side and on the left-side, and their dog has his legs outstretched in their midst. If you looked upon them you would have run away from them and you would have been filled with terror from them!
18:22 They will Say: "Three, the fourth is their dog." And they Say: "Five, the sixth is their dog," guessing at what they do not know. And they Say: "Seven, and the eighth is their dog." Say: "My Lord is fully aware of their number, none know them except for a few." So do not debate in them except with proof, and do not seek information regarding them from anyone.

A different excerpt:

5:4 They ask you what was made lawful to them, Say: "All the good things have been made lawful for you, and what the trained dogs and birds catch, you teach them from what God teaches you." So eat from what they have captured for you and mention God's name upon it, and be aware of God. God is quick in reckoning.

In some of the Hadiths you will find negative sayings about dogs.

Hadith - Bukhari 3:515, Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever keeps a dog, one Qirat of the reward of his good deeds is deducted daily, unless the dog is used for guarding a farm or cattle." Abu Huraira (in another narration) said from the Prophet, "unless it is used for guarding sheep or farms, or for hunting." Narrated Abu Hazim from Abu Huraira: The Prophet  said, "A dog for guarding cattle or for hunting."

 

Hadith - Bukhari 3:515, Narrated Abu Huraira

I heard Allah's Apostle saying; "Angels (of Mercy) do not enter a house wherein there is a dog or a picture of a living creature (a human being or an animal)."

 

Hadith - Mishkat, Transmitted by Abu Dawud and Darimi

The Prophet said, "Were dogs not a species of creature I should command that they all be killed; but kill every pure black one." [Muslim, Narrated AbuDharr: "...The black dog is a devil."]

 

No foul play with dogs in the Koran. You be the judge!



Edited by Seko
Back to Top
Mila View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2005 at 18:21
Koran. 

Hadiths.

Making it brief so I don't piss anyone off.
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
Back to Top
OSMANLI View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: North Cyprus
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 740
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2005 at 03:26

Quite briefly, both Cats and Dogs are to be treated with equal respect. Thus respect should be given to all of the lords creations. However the diffrence comes in due to the diffrence in their physical and mental charectaristics.

A cat is naturally a clean animal, even instictively a cat will lick it self to stay clean. It is due to this that a cat is allowed inside the house, if ofund in a Mosque one should not kick it out either.

A dog however differs since it is a dirty animal. A position is that it is not allowed inside ones house. This does not mean howver that they do not deserve respect.

 

Qur'an~e~Kerim

Hadith/Sunnah    

Not trying to get to religious, so here a quick quote from the Qur'an:

"And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah: truly Allah is severe in punishment. " [Qur'an 59:7]

Quran + Sunnah = Sharia



Edited by OSMANLI
Back to Top
ok ge View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2005 at 03:47

Before we start bashing a fundemental source of Islam just because we like such and such and we don't like such and such, we shall look into two major questions.

1- Are dogs inferior to cats (as Sparkatus asked)?

2- Depending on their status, what is the wisdom?

In answering the two questions, please put aside your likes and dislikes. Religion is not tailored to what you like it to be, it is the opposite.

1- Are dogs Inferior to cats?

Answer: Inferior in their status? No. In Islam, dogs are considered to be dirtier than cats, however, that is their nature and it doesn't mean they are to be considered inferior. All god creatures are equal in treatment by human beings.

The Quran talked about the usage of dogs in hunting and guardening. It also talked about the "cave story" and their dogs. The fact that dog was discussed as part of the story including that dog traits does not necessary constitute a law or jurisdiction toward dogs nature.

In hadith, the prophet stated clearly that dogs owning shall be only for special needs and purposes.

We shall be talking too about an incident in Madina and at that time, dogs were roaming Madinah street becoming a health hazard. The prophet (PBUH) has ordered killing roaming dogs. it is stated clearly: The Prophet said, "Five kinds of animals are mischief-doers and can be killed even in the Sanctuary: They are the rat, the scorpion, the kite, the crow and the rabid dog."

So clearly he specified here rabid dogs especially the case of Madinah. The other hadith that Seko posted and sayed:

The Prophet said, "Were dogs not a species of creature I should command that they all be killed; but kill every pure black one." [Muslim, Narrated AbuDharr: "...The black dog is a devil."]

It is clear that he stated a specific kind of dog and actually he went explaining that it has a three white dot over its head (continuing the description). This is because devils are taken that shape according to he story. So it is also a specific timing and specific incidence.

In mentiong about dogs in hadith, someone have to be objective too to mention the great reward of taken care of them. In two separate hadiths narrated by Abu Hurayrahm the Prophet told his Companions about two stories. One man who was blessed by Allah for giving water to a thirsty dog. Allah appreciated this and forgave him all his sins. (Reported by al-Bukhari)

The other was a prostitute, who filled her shoe with water and gave it to a dog that was lolling its tongue in thirst.

So basically dogs are regarded to have unclean parts and shall not be kept in the house EXCEPT for special needs explained earlier.

2- Why does Islam then decide that dogs are not always clean and they shall not be kept as pet inside a house? What is the wisdom?

I wish we know the wisdom without working hard to find it. However, that wisdom goes back again to the dog's nature in deciding why you cannot keep them (unnecessary dogs) inside your residancy. The American Center of Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) says:

"Although dogs can pass germs to people, you are not likely to get sick from touching or owning dogs. To best protect yourself from getting sick, thoroughly wash your hands with running water and soap after contact with dogs, dog saliva, or dog feces (stool).

Dogs can carry a variety of germs that can make people sick. Some of these germs are common and some are rare. For example, puppies may pass the bacterium Campylobacter in their feces (stool). This germs can cause diarrhea in people. Less often, dogs in urban or rural areas can carry the bacterium Leptospira (lep-TO-spy-ruh). This germ causes the disease leptospirosis (lep-to-spi-roh-sis) in people and animals. Dogs can also carry rabies, a deadly viral disease. Rabies from dogs is rare in the United States."

http://www.cdc.gov/healthypets/animals/dogs.htm

Therefore, dogs are not to be kept inside houses unless for special purposes.



Edited by ok ge
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Back to Top
Afghanan View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Durr e Durran

Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1098
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2005 at 18:30

My fathers family kept 2 dogs in Afghanistan.  They were for Gaurding only.  In Afghanistan, (and I"m not speaking for the entire Islamic world here), Dogs were not used as pets.  Dogs were dangerous, they DID carry diseases, and they DID attack people if they were hungry.  Some would use their dogs in dog fights, but the majority would use them as guard dogs.   

Cats on the other hand, in some houses were allowed inside, in others, they were cast outside as well.  Birds on the other hand were definitely used as pets.  Especially singing birds, doves, and parrots.

I personally love dogs, and if I were to ever purchase one, it would never step inside my house. 

 

The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak
Back to Top
Infidel View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 19-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 691
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 03:56

I think this whole point is quite ridiculous. Dogs are great animals, good for company, be it inside or outside the house. There are many reported benefits from living with dogs, including child development.

Once more, this issue comes from hadith.

An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
Back to Top
azimuth View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
SlaYer'S SlaYer

Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 07:51

i dont see how some of you guys are thinking that the Hadith contradict with the Quran !

in the three verses Seko posted above, the first two are from the story of people of Al Kahaf that they had a dog which was with them and Guarded them, and in the second one is clearly talking about Dogs used for Hunting.

The hadiths are saying the same,

so to sum up Dogs in Islam are not Pets, they must be for benifit such as guarding or Hunting.

 

also as per the Hadiths the Dog's saliva is considered not Clean "Najas", and if a Dog drank from a water this water cannot be used for prayer washing "Wodo"

while cats saliva is considered clean.

so what happens mostly is that cats are used inside the home for hunting harmfull animals such as mice and insects.

also having a dog and cats for the above reasons obligate a person to treat them nicly and play with them and have fun which equal to what most pets about.

also there are many hadiths about animal treatments, from what i remember in brief there is a hadith about a woman went to hell for prisoning her cat.and a man went to heaven for going down the well to get water to a thirsty wild dog.

 

 

Back to Top
Infidel View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 19-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 691
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 15:37

There are clear benefits to child development when living with dogs as pets. One should expect there would be some hadith about it too.

Furthermore, there are people who can't live with cats inside their house. They are allergic to a substance of the cat's fur.

The hadiths try to cover all areas of a person's life. I don't think that is the purpose of religion. I mean, there are reported fatwas about how a muslim should still use miswak! I mean, back in the time of the Prophet, ok it was good as no one brushed their teeth. But nowadays we have toothbrushes for God's sake!

An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
Back to Top
OSMANLI View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: North Cyprus
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 740
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 16:02

I think this whole point is quite ridiculous.

Excuse me, could you show some respect towards my religion. I know that you said that you are a Muslim to, then you should know that Islam teaches respect.

Furthermore, there are people who can't live with cats inside their house. They are allergic to a substance of the cat's fur.

Whats your point? The Sharia does not say that you must have a cat, it up to the individual. If your allergic to cats dont buy one.

There are a lot of fatwas from here and there. If we was to follow all the fatwas we would be following Bin Laden. Follow Fatwas from knowlegeble people and not those Imam wannabe's. This is why we have the Hadith as a supplementary guide. The madhabs also show various interpretations to help the Ummah.

You can brush your teeth with a toothbrush, who said that you cant, Imam Al- Fred  Bin Flinstone? The Miswak however does have good effects for the teeth, which is why it is used in the ablution (Wudhu).

Back to Top
ok ge View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 17:59

Originally posted by Infidel

There are clear benefits to child development when living with dogs as pets. One should expect there would be some hadith about it too

When we answered the questions regarding the wisdom of keeping dogs out of houses and for special purposes, I did request that "In answering the two questions, please put aside your likes and dislikes"

Im sure children will enjoy having a pet and their mental growth is healthier, but first, it is not only to dogs, it is to many other type of pets. second, the risk is larger than the benifit.

Remember that laws are built in accordance with the norms, and not exceptions. If a law in your state says you cannot drive with 0.10% alcohol in your blood, and you are an exception who can function fine even with 0.11% alcohol in your blood, we cannot change and modify the law just for you. If you love dogs that much, that does not change the fact that dogs presence is not recommended and it is not me who says that but many health organizations including the The American Center of Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Go back to previous posts.

Pork is prohibited in Islam also for our health reasons. That doesn't mean every person who eats prok must carry that disease and that, but overall, it is a known fact to the creator and later to us human through medical advances and experiences.

D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Back to Top
Infidel View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 19-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 691
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 00:29

Pork and intoxicants are prohibited in the Qur'an. Dogs inside the house no. That's enough for me.

As for Osmanli, if you think that I've been disrespectful towards Islam just by stating my opinion on how useless this matter seems to me, I'm sorry but it seems that you're just too sensitive.

An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
Back to Top
ok ge View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 02:52

Ok Infidel,

   Remember that Sunnah is an essential part to many Muslims (actually the majority). Im sure you will be offended if let's say a Christian said prohibiting alcohol is ridiciolous in the Quran just because he doesn't share your script source, and so for you to say the same regarding this issue just because you don't share the source of Sunnah is not different in that matter. Especially that you have not shown us why do you think the Hadith is ridiciolous except the only fact that you reject all of the Hadiths.

D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Back to Top
OSMANLI View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: North Cyprus
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 740
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 08:37
The a way Muslim, or infact any other person with a certain level of manners would atleast have the courtesy to reply by saying "OK, i can see your point although i personally dnt agree because of the sourse....."
Back to Top
Infidel View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 19-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 691
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 13:37

Originally posted by OSMANLI

The a way Muslim, or infact any other person with a certain level of manners would atleast have the courtesy to reply by saying "OK, i can see your point although i personally dnt agree because of the sourse....."

Such courtesy you haven't shown yourself either. Anyway, don't get offended Osmanli, I was just trying to express my thoughts.

An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
Back to Top
Infidel View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 19-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 691
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 13:45

Originally posted by ok ge

Especially that you have not shown us why do you think the Hadith is ridiciolous except the only fact that you reject all of the Hadiths.

I showed some of them that, I think, speak for themselves. I'm sure we can find good stories and morals in some hadiths but you can also find awkward and non-sense stuff (and I'm talking about the sahih ones).

Do you agree with the ones I posted early on? The ones about the left-hand being the devil's hand or to grow a beard else you be wicked?

If you really follow such hadiths, then I am sorry if I offended you, but I just can't give any credit to these stories.

An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
Back to Top
OSMANLI View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: North Cyprus
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 740
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 17:24

With all due respect i think that your understanding of the hadith is clearly weak. You must remember that the Qur'an and for that matter the Hadith often have symbolic references, thus any old 'joe blog' cannot come to the 'sahih', correct understanding just by reading it on an indiviual basis. This can be compared to a student, a student studies alone however with out the help of a knowledgeble teacher the student will more than likely fail the test.

Muslims are tought for two reasons to eat with their right.

1.The devil has been described as eating with their left hand. So a Muslim will show defience to the Devil by doing the opposite.

2. A Muslim cleans himself after such excreation activities, thus the left hand is used for ones cleaning. The right which will not have exposure to such things is therefore used for eating.

The beard is a Sunnah, thus it is something the Prophet (and in fact every prophet has kept a beard) PBUH has done/kept. Only hardliners like Wahabis may be of the thought that to not to keep one is haram. Althought the majority inc. the orthodox sunni's hold that it is a sunnah (optional)

I have never heard it to be described as 'wicked'. Could you please tell me were you found such verses from.

Regards,

OSMANLI

Back to Top
Infidel View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 19-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 691
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 10:35

Originally posted by OSMANLI

With all due respect i think that your understanding of the hadith is clearly weak. You must remember that the Qur'an and for that matter the Hadith often have symbolic references, thus any old 'joe blog' cannot come to the 'sahih', correct understanding just by reading it on an indiviual basis. This can be compared to a student, a student studies alone however with out the help of a knowledgeble teacher the student will more than likely fail the test.

Ok, I'll accept that my understanding of the hadith is weak. But from what I've read so far, the knowledge in them is weak as well. And about the symbolic values, you're saying that not eating with the left hand, to grow a beard or women's salat being more valuable at home are just symbolic? If so, on what purpose?

Originally posted by OSMANLI

1.The devil has been described as eating with their left hand. So a Muslim will show defience to the Devil by doing the opposite.

Described by whom? By more hadiths?

Originally posted by OSMANLI

2. A Muslim cleans himself after such excreation activities, thus the left hand is used for ones cleaning. The right which will not have exposure to such things is therefore used for eating.

That would depend on the person. There are some who use their left to clean themselves, others the right. There's also people who are left-handed and do most of their activities with the left. I can't see any point in this, I'm sorry.

Originally posted by OSMANLI

The beard is a Sunnah, thus it is something the Prophet (and in fact every prophet has kept a beard) PBUH has done/kept. Only hardliners like Wahabis may be of the thought that to not to keep one is haram. Althought the majority inc. the orthodox sunni's hold that it is a sunnah (optional)

Well, this is the definition of sunnah that I've been given:
 
Sunnat: Sunnat is that action which Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam did or sanctioned. Sunnat is of two types: sunnat-e-mu'akkadah and sunnat-e-ghayr-mu'akkadah. Sunnat-e-mu'akkadah is that which Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam continuously carried out. To leave out such a type of sunnat is a sin and one is punished for this. However, there is no harm if one leaves it out because of some valid excuse.
 
So, if to grow a beard is sunnah, then or you have a valid excuse not to grow it, or otherwise it's a sin and you should be punished for this. That is what I understand from it.

Originally posted by OSMANLI

I have never heard it to be described as 'wicked'. Could you please tell me were you found such verses from.

I found such judgements in some muslim sites. Just type islamic beard in google to find them. But what disturbed me more were not those sites, whose authorship is always questionable, it was a discussion in a portuguese islamic forum where there was someone who brought this up and no-one, including people I know, questioned it (so far)!  

Originally posted by OSMANLI

Regards

Regards Osmanli. Don't be offended, we are just trying to discuss some points here. Assalamu alaikum, peace be with you.



Edited by Infidel
An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.047 seconds.