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Being Muslim the Bosniak Way

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  Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Being Muslim the Bosniak Way
    Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 06:52
Qutuz, I'm not saying Islamic CUlture is specifically Arabic, but there are strong overtures of Arabic culture in Islam is it not?
 
It is not possible for Muhammed to redefine Arabic culture within an Islamic context and make it Islamic so that the two are synonymous.
 
I dont see anything wrong with the "Bosnian" way of Islam, early Islam adopted many facets of Arabic and non-Arabic culture. Are you saying Bosnian Muslims should be not be able to adapt Islam to their own culture as early Muslims did?
 
 
 
 
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  Quote The Grim Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 13:14
Originally posted by Nestorian

Are you saying Bosnian Muslims should be not be able to adapt Islam to their own culture as early Muslims did?
 
He's saying that all Muslims should follow the Salafist version of Islam that he and all other radicals follow.
 
He's denying the existence of pre-Islamic cultural and religious beliefs found in Islamic communities outside of the Arabian Peninsula. He refuses to realize that Muslims in Balkans, the Iranian Plateau, the North Caucasus, Turkestan, Indonesia, and even in Pakistan, adhere to many pre-Islamic customs and have adapted Islam to conform to their own history.
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  Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2006 at 05:09
I thought so, Grim Reaper, I simply can't believe that Islam in the beginning had no cultural roots to a particular cutlure, if we are to accept Islam, to say it does not carry any cultural baggage begs the question of where its cultural affinities derive from then.
 
 
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2006 at 21:51

Muslims believe Islam is a continuation of old Abrahamic tradition. So, you can say its root goes as far as what we can call the start of the Abrahamic monothiest comprehension of mighty-centeralized divine.

Now, there are many Orientalists who believe Islam is a modified copy of Christianity and Judaism due to the similarities of its beliefs and rituals. However, these are usually assumptions and it is extremely hard to decide what is copied of what and from whom. Muslims don't hold a hebrew bible or an old testament to compare the added chapters to the roots. Furthermore, the style of the scripture is different where it is more philosophical and dates, numbers, and story details are usually neglected or missing in favor of focusing the moral of the story. Whereas, dates, numbers, locations, names, and story details are essential parts of the biblical scriptures, where it does make it sounds more like a historical record too.
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  Quote The Grim Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2006 at 22:13
Originally posted by Nestorian

I thought so, Grim Reaper, I simply can't believe that Islam in the beginning had no cultural roots to a particular cutlure, if we are to accept Islam, to say it does not carry any cultural baggage begs the question of where its cultural affinities derive from then. 
 

The religion of Islam itself is derived from pre-Islamic Arabian beliefs and cultural practices coupled with some elements of Judaism (which itself  incorporates so many elements of pre-Judaic Semitic culture as well as borrowings from other Middle Eastern groups, i.e. Zoroastrians in Persia, Mithraism, etc.) and it is blatantly obvious that the religion serves as an avenue for the advancement of Arab colonialism. When a Muslim in North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, the Levant, the Balkans, Central Asia, the Iranian Plateau, the Indian Subcontinent, or the Indonesian Archipelago (or is it the Malaysian Archipelago?) dons "Muslim" garb, or prays in Arabic, or gives their child an Arabic name, he unwittingly is accepting pre-Islamic Arabian rituals.

 

The truth of the matter is that one does not have to wear pre-Islamic Arabian garments, give their children Arabic names, and discard all pre-Islamic rituals, which their ancestors practiced, in order to adhere to the Islamic faith, or to identify himself/herself as a Muslim. I think this is a fallacy on the part of the Salafists and other Islamists (the majority of whom tend to be Arabs and Arabists as well at least in my experience).

 

I think that one of the most beautiful things I have witnessed is the diversity amongst Muslims peoples. I love how the Turks bear Turkic names, although some have Turkified versions of Arab names, and the same goes for Bosniaks, Albanians, Persians, Afghans, Pakistanis, etc., I find this to be a great wonder. Each community is unique, and each community, at least in my opinion, ought to be free to adopt and adapt Islam to their own histories and cultures. I do not want to see Bosniaks, Turks, Persians, or any other non-Arab group identifying themselves as Arabs. I very much enjoy going to Noruz (Persian New Year) celebrations with Iranians and Afghans, and I appreciate the mix of Turkic-Persian-Indian culture that is unique to Pakistan, or the Turkic-Slavic mixture that is present in the Balkans. I think that is wonderful. I certainly do not want to see TURKEY: An Arab country, or BOSNIA: An Arab country, or IRAN: an Arab country. That is a dream that only the Salafists have.



Edited by The Grim Reaper - 27-Dec-2006 at 22:14
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2006 at 23:18
Originally posted by The Grim Reaper

I certainly do not want to see TURKEY: An Arab country, or BOSNIA: An Arab country, or IRAN: an Arab country. That is a dream that only the Salafists have.
 
So the beauty in Islam you find is diversity or that Turkey, Bosnia and Iran were saved from Arabatization (here I cast a severe doubt that there was any process of Arabitization of Turkey or Bosnia from the begining).
Also, I'm not sure if I met any salafi who wants Turkey, Bonsia, or Iran to turn into an Arab country. Maybe you can mention one of them, out of curiousity.
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  Quote Dan Carkner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2006 at 00:18
Worthy comments from Grim Reaper, btw I saw Tariq Ramadan speak here last week and the example he gave was that it was ridiculous to think that someone has to dress/act Pakistani or Somali to be muslim in Canada ;)  I would tend to agree with him, if I ever converted to islam it would be for the content of justice and peace, not to become an arab worshipper!  don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of arabic culture, but that should not be the point of a value system.

I personally am not religious, but we have to live in the real world and admit that religions are influenced by what came before.  Compare Irish catholics with south american ones with arab ones. 
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  Quote The Grim Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 17:29

Originally posted by ok ge

So the beauty in Islam you find is diversity or that Turkey, Bosnia and Iran were saved from Arabatization

 

There are many things that I find beautiful in Islam. In fact, I find the religion itself, and the Muslim people, to be very warm and beautiful -save for the extremists of course.

 

Iran probably incurred the highest levels of Arabization due to the Arab conquest of Iran, and the subsequent introduction of Shariah and Islam. The Turks were introduced to Islam not through conquest, but via Sufi missionaries, and hence were never subjected to Arabization (since the Turks themselves were the conquerors).

 

Originally posted by ok ge

(here I cast a severe doubt that there was any process of Arabitization of Turkey or Bosnia from the begining). Also, I'm not sure if I met any salafi who wants Turkey, Bonsia, or Iran to turn into an Arab country. Maybe you can mention one of them, out of curiousity.

 

What I had meant to imply was that the radical elements of the jihadist movement tend to all follow the Salafist interpretation of Islam whether they be ethnic Arabs, Turks, Afghans, or others and are quick to disavow any elements of pre-Islamic belief that a Muslim people may still hold, i.e. the banning of Noruz by the Islamic Republic of Iran, the implementation of strict pre-Islamic Arabian concepts in Chechen society (by both the foreign fighters, Chechen radicals, and the government of Ramzan Kadryov) and the disbandment of Chechen and Caucasian pre-Islamic rituals.

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 21:49

Good comments Grim and Dan.

I guess I have a clear idea of what you meant to say. I just objected to the assumption that "Salafists would like to see Turkey, Iran, or Bosnia an Arab country". Afterall, what good is it to be an Arab, if it will be an anti-religious secular government like that of Tunisia or Syria? I always say it is quiet interesting, you can decide to pray Fajr one day in Washington DC, but not in Hems or Demascus of Syria, or that you can wear Hijab going to college or working in a federal office, in Ohio, but you cannot do that in Tunnis, the capital! So, Arabitazation is not necesarry a promise path toward conservatism or religious-stiffness.
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  Quote The Grim Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2006 at 16:43

cok gec,

 

I completely agree with you in that secularism in some Muslim countries -and especially in some Arab countries - has gone too far. The Muslim world itself is mired in hypocrisy. In Iran, the Islamic Republic espouses religious piety, yet Muslim men and women regularly neglect prayers, engage in premarital relations, consume alcohol, and the use of heroin is rampant. In Taliban-run Afghanistan, many of the same vices were present. In the Central Asian republics that are still governed by authoritarian dictators all of who were former Communist bosses in the USSR, religion is dicated by the state, meaning that the only interpretation of Islam that is accepted -is the one allowed by the secularist state. In places like Turkey, Tunisia, Syria, and Egypt, secularism is promoted at the expense of Islam.

 

My opposition to the Salafist viewpoint is that it is an interpretation of Islam rooted in Arab society, and I don't disagree with it being promoted in Saudi Arabia and in the Arab world at large, but I don't feel that it has a place in non-Arab Muslim societies.

 

And at the same time, my concern is that the promotion of religion through enforcement only produces dissent. For example, even though Turkey is a secular country, women and girls willingly wear the headscarves whereas in Iran, the IRI enforces the chador, but women and girls resent this.

 

Don't you think it is better for an individual to understand, and willingly adhere to his/her religious values, as is the case in Turkey or Pakistan, rather than being forced to follow something that they have no clear understanding of?
 
 


Edited by The Grim Reaper - 31-Dec-2006 at 16:46
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2007 at 09:02
Originally posted by The Grim Reaper

Don't you think it is better for an individual to understand, and willingly adhere to his/her religious values, as is the case in Turkey or Pakistan, rather than being forced to follow something that they have no clear understanding of?
 
I agree. Your point is a valid one for sure, since only when you are not forced to adhere to religious values, is when true believers come out from non believers.
Yet, won't go far in limiting state intervention to a libertarian stand.
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