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Topic ClosedPan-Aryanism

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Chieftain
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pan-Aryanism
    Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 18:12
     Well im sure you know that making something like this even close to a reality would be a longshot. If it would come into existence, I would highly doubt Armenia would ever join such a group because:

1. They are the only Christian nation in the group. Armenians are not ready to risk assimilation into Islam with only 3 million Armenians compared to the other 150 million+ Muslims moving freely across borders. I think a European Union bid would appeal more to Armenian politicians for cultural purposes, but mainly for economic purposes, as there is more to be won from Europe than from the East.

2. We're in conflict with one of the 'members' of this group (Azerbaijan). Neither side wants to give up a square inch of land to the other, and there are rumors of another war ensuing in the region within the next couple of years. Unless Iran forces Azerbaijan to recognize Karabagh as part of Armenia (which wont happen), then there is no way Armenian politicians would make this move. If Azerbaijan isnt included, however, there might be a chance, seeing as there are many potential economic gains from such a union. But as I said, an EU bid would take precedence over anything else on the table, and joining this union would jeopordize any chance we have with a future EU entrance.

     Armenians and Iranians have some of the same interests, such as perserving their history and minimizing foreign intervention in their politics/economics. But Armenia has other interests that would be a burden on Iran, such as the conflict in Azerbaijan, along with rebuilding our post-soviet economy. Our cultures might be akin to one another, but our national interests are not. They vary greatly according to the different situations each nation is in.

     About our history with the Turks, I agree with you that we have gotten the short end of the stick, but we are no longer in conflict with them (only talking about Turkey here). We are not friends in the political world, but we are also not at war. I think Armenia and Turkey are pretty much ignoring each other, but the Armenian diaspora (which is larger than the population of Armenia) is trying to put as much political pressure on Turkey as they can. We would rather appeal more to the U.S., where 1 million Armenians live, than to Iran, which would give us absolutely no political sway on a global level. Already in the U.S., 38 out of the 50 states have formally recognized the events of 1915 as Genocide, including my homestate of California. We have the largest political backing in the U.S. behind the Jews. As for Europe, the European Parliament has recognized the genocide years ago, as well as countries like Poland, Italy, Greece, France, Netherlands, Germany, etc. Also, there is the millions of dollars of U.S. and European aid poured into Armenia each year. Compared to all this, we have accomplished very little with mid-east countries regarding our national/cultural interests. So you see its better for us to invest our efforts in the west, where we have made this much progress in only 2 decades.

     Also, while many may view Azeris as Iranians, Armenians view them as Turks. Language, history, political affiliation, etc, makes them Turkish in the eyes of Armenians. Thats just as simple as I can put it.

     As for the cultural aspect, I dont view Armenians as Iranian, although Armenians are an Aryan people. However, I am aware of the many Iranian influences on our culture, and I appreciate them instead of rejecting them like some nationalists do...so i can see where you would make the connection between our peoples. I feel the closest people to the Armenians, culturally and historically, are the Greeks and the Persians. I regard Persian and Greek cultures almost as 'cousin-cultures' to Armenian.

     Thats just a rough sketch of what i think about Armenia in an Iranian union.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 23:58

well, not everyone would agree with me.

I see Azeris as Turkified (culturally) Iranians. Their conflicts with Armenia showcase the petty quarelling our Aryan race has fallen too.

Also I dont care that Armenia is Christian. I dislike Islam in Iran and what these religions have done to separate us. I definately do NOT want Armenia to turn muslim.

I also realize this is a far-fetched plan. Would it happen? Not with these stupid Mullahs, Iran is only gonna fall backwards unless it frees itself.

I am quite literally scared Iranians nations are getting dumber as we speak, no joke. If you study the Ashkenazi Jews they have an average IQ of 122, and got this far, only by accepting intelligent individuals. Jewish society required great scholarship in the Torah, so many less intelligent individuals dropped back into Christian Europe. Thus their IQ.

Iran is the opposite. There are so many smart middle-easterners, every middle-easterner I have met here is more intelligent than average. All the brains are leaving Iran and leaving dumb mullahs in power.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 04:14
Persian Gulf II was a funny one Purya

I talked to a Saudi guy last week and there was a change of topic to this really boring subject of "Arabian Gulf" (actually it was a football related chat which turned into a "So you say everything is Persian" one). Anyway, I heard something which I REALLY SERIOUSLY would like to hear other Southern Arab people opinion on, he said to me Ok, the gulf can be Persian, but fish in the gulf are Arabic! (Let me know what you have to say about this, ok Azimuth? lol)

Sorry if it's a bit "insulting", but I'm very very serious.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 09:36

- There is no such thing as an 'Aryan race'.

- Ethnicities are defined by language before anything else (except for colonised countries).

- Azeris are a Turkic ethnicity. They are no more Aryan than Kurds are Turkic. Only people who claim that Azeri are 'Aryan' are Iranian racists (of any ethnicity). In Turkey we had Turks who claimed that Kurds are 'mountain Turks', it's the same thing. Most Iranians call Azeris 'Turks', anyway. Note that this doesn't mean that Azeri are not Iranians. They are Shia, and are subjects of the Iranian state, i.e. political Iranians. Similarly, Kurds are mostly Sunni and subjects of the Turkish state.

- Pan Aryanism is a ridiculous idea. Pan-Slavism was popular in the 19th century, Pan-Turkism in the 20th because the Turks were 100 years behind Russia. And now you come up with Pan-Aryanism, if Pan-Aryanism becomes popular in Iran, it will only show that Iran is 100 years behind Turkey in ideological development.

- But don't worry, Gypsies (Roma) are Aryan people, and so are the north Indians. You can include them in your list, instead of Azeris. Besides, since you wish to unite the lands where the Aryan people live, by doing this you can lay claim to India and all of Europe as well.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 09:50

If I am not mistaken, your tone was derogatory against Gypsies and North Indians.  Explain yourself.

Pan-Turkism is alive and well, what are you talking about?  It claims Parthians, Scythians, Sarmatians, Chechens, Bosnians and Albanians as Turks. It is racist against Kurds and Armenians.  And you may or may not have noticed but the issue of race has not come up in this discussion until u turned up.

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 10:02

Originally posted by ramin

Persian Gulf II was a funny one Purya

I talked to a Saudi guy last week and there was a change of topic to this really boring subject of "Arabian Gulf" (actually it was a football related chat which turned into a "So you say everything is Persian" one). Anyway, I heard something which I REALLY SERIOUSLY would like to hear other Southern Arab people opinion on, he said to me Ok, the gulf can be Persian, but fish in the gulf are Arabic! (Let me know what you have to say about this, ok Azimuth? lol)

Sorry if it's a bit "insulting", but I'm very very serious.

what do you mean by south Arab? yemen?

anyway i guess he was joking

i think he meant something like you can call it persian but its  Arabic in a sence that the majority of people living on its coast are Arab speaking.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 10:40

If I am not mistaken, your tone was derogatory against Gypsies and North Indians.  Explain yourself.

You are mistaken. I think you consider 'gypsy' an insult, so you think I am insulting people when I say Roma are Aryan. I surely am not derogatory against Roma (whom I quite like) and North Indians, but I was making fun of Pan-Aryans, that's true...

Here's a story for you: The Nazis liked Tolkien's books and wanted to publish them in Germany. They sent him a letter asking if he was a Jew or an Aryan. He replied 'unfortunately I am neither a member of that people of literary genius nor am a gypsy or Indian...' 

Pan-Turkism is alive and well, what are you talking about?  It claims Parthians, Scythians, Sarmatians, Chechens, Bosnians and Albanians as Turks. It is racist against Kurds and Armenians.

There are people like that, but it is not a common political movement. In fatc, in most cases, people who claim the Turkness of non-Turks are Turkish nationalists, not Pan-Turkists. Pan-Turkists want to create a 'Turan', a country for all Turkics. Turks tried to use Pan-Turkism to divide Iran (which was extremely weak) at the end of the World War I, but it was abandoned with the Republic, replaced with Turkish nationalism. A revival came with the World War II, but was oppressed by the government and disappeared with the defeat of Germany and Turkey joining the NATO, since USSR emerged as the new enemy. First time I learnt that there were other peoples speaking related languages was after the collapse of USSR. There was another revival of Pan-Turkism since then, but it is quite marginal.

And you may or may not have noticed but the issue of race has not come up in this discussion until u turned up.

Really?

Their conflicts with Armenia showcase the petty quarelling our Aryan race has fallen too.

PrznKonectoid, two messages above mine...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 12:13

Why would I consider Gypsy an insult? I think you do, that is why you have used them in such a clever way in order to provoke, taking advantage of their low status within society for your arguments sake. Quite low of you.

It wouldn't be the first or indeed second time I have heard gypsies mocked by someone of a certain nationality here and then have Indians, Iranians or Armenians associated with them in a derogatory racist manner, as if it were some sort of insult to be associated with Gypsies or Indians, which it most certainly is not.  So excuse my paranoia.

I didn't have the displeasure of reading a reference to an Aryan race as I wasn't paying attention to this thread recently until I saw your name and considered your antagonistic tendency in such potentially explosive discussions.

And please do consider that this is just a bunch of kids discussing some nationalistic wet dreams they have and consider how many (dozens) of pan-Turanist threads there are and how many of your countrymen have proudly worn some sort of grey wolf regalia in their avatars.

Grey wolf elements are strong in Turkey, they were so shocked when this little incident happened: ttp://www.payvand.com/news/02/nov/1114.html

Who has the power in Turkey to grant citizenships?  This was a huge PR disaster for Pan-Turanist Grey Puppy sympathisers in the Turkish  government. 

Here we have Turkish government official "Mohsun" receiving that uneducated racist charlatan Chehrengali- Can you imagine the hissy fits Turkey would have thrown if Iran had officially received Ocalan?

You're in denial if you say Pan-Turanist racism is dead as an official movement in your home nation... it clearly is not. 

PS Pan-Turanists utterly failed in dividing Iran because of Iran's Azaries having no affinity with them.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 13:04
Why would I consider Gypsy an insult? I think you do, that is why you have used them in such a clever way in order to provoke, taking advantage of their low status within society for your arguments sake. Quite low of you.

It wouldn't be the first or indeed second time I have heard gypsies mocked by someone of a certain nationality here and then have Indians, Iranians or Armenians associated with them in a derogatory racist manner, as if it were some sort of insult to be associated with Gypsies or Indians, which it most certainly is not.  So excuse my paranoia.

Look here, you are accusing me of being racist on your hunches. I am a Communist, I have fought the racists here more than anyone else, and I don't take your insults lightly.

I am not aware of others insulting Gypsies in this thread, but if it is indeed the case I see why you may be wary. Still, it is quite clear from my post that I didn't insult anyone except Pan-Aryans (you do this too), and any insults you see there are your illusions. I'll take the matter to other admins if you continue your accusations.

I didn't have the displeasure of reading a reference to an Aryan race as I wasn't paying attention to this thread recently until I saw your name and considered your antagonistic tendency in such potentially explosive discussions.

Of course, if you are prejudiced about me it is no surprise that you are accusing me without proof. Maybe you should be impartial and read the posts carefully, before accusing people of not noticing things.

And please do consider that this is just a bunch of kids discussing some nationalistic wet dreams they have and consider how many (dozens) of pan-Turanist threads there are and how many of your countrymen have proudly worn some sort of grey wolf regalia in their avatars.

I consider this as a thread in AE, and I reply to whatever thread I like. If you look carefully you'll notice a radical decline in the number of Pan-Turkic threads in AE, which is thanks to me and other non-nationalist Turks like me, who oppose such crap. It is not nice to try to blame those threads on us, who succcessfully combatted them.

Grey wolf elements are strong in Turkey, they were so shocked when this little incident happened: ttp://www.payvand.com/news/02/nov/1114.html

Who has the power in Turkey to grant citizenships?  This was a huge PR disaster for Pan-Turanist Grey Puppy sympathisers in the Turkish  government.

I never heard of that incident. So it can't be a big scandal as you claim it is. Besides, I hope you are not claiming that an alleged attempt to transfer a weight-lifter by another weight-lifter is proof of Pan-Turkists ruling Turkey?

Here we have Turkish government official "Mohsun" receiving that uneducated racist charlatan Chehrengali- Can you imagine the hissy fits Turkey would have thrown if Iran had officially received Ocalan?

I am not aware who the Iranian guy is, but Muhsin Yazicioglu is not a government official. Unlike Iran, Turkey has independent political parties. Yazicioglu, a fascist pig, is the head of BBP (Great Union Party), an Fascist-Islamist party, which is more Pan-Sunni than Pan-Turkic. It got under 1% of the vote in the last elections...

You're in denial if you say Pan-Turanist racism is dead as an official movement in your home nation... it clearly is not.

Turkey tries to improve relations with the Turkic states for practical and economic reasons, but there is no serious movement which calls for a Pan Turkic union. Main source of trouble between Turkey and Iran is Secularist vs Islamist, not Pan-Turkist vs Pan-Iranist. Turkey supports secular Iranian groups and Iran supports Islamists in Turkey.

PS Pan-Turanists utterly failed in dividing Iran because of Iran's Azaries having no affinity with them.

Yes. At the end of the World War I, Iran was very weak, and the region was quite backward. Ottoman armies marched all the way to Baku after defeating the Armenians, and after the collapse of Russia, and tried to create a Pan-Turkic movement, but the Azeris are Shia before they are Turkic, so the move didn't work. Then Ottoman Empire collapsed within a few years and it was replaced with the Turkish Republic, which is Turkish nationalist, not Pan-Turkic in ideology.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 13:38

Then I am glad all of this has been cleared up.

I am locking this thread, if participants in the actual discussion wish to continue, I advise one of them to make a new thread uaing a title without racial connotations. Furthermore, there is no Aryan race, such a notion is ridiculous considering how different supposed Aryans can look to each other.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 13:39
Beylerbeyi, from my observations of your posts you are not a racist. You may be bold in your use of non politically correct verbage but you are still not a racist. In fact you try to be honest to the point that it may catch a few off guard. I do not think your intentions were to harm an ethnic group but to use them as examples in your discussions. So for others who take his stuff out of context, chill!
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