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Nick1986
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Topic: Favourite Medieval Heretics Posted: 08-Sep-2011 at 20:19 |
No mention of John Wycliffe? Without the Lollards the English Reformation would not have happened as their residual-beliefs prepared laymen for the arrival of Protestantism
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Nick1986
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Posted: 08-Sep-2011 at 09:32 |
Originally posted by Scealai
Joan of Arc. She may not have been the best military leader, but she did amazing things. Even though she was Catholic, and France was predominantly Catholic, her claim to hear the voice of St. Catherine led her to be labled a heretic. She was seventeen, and just a peasant-woman from Domremy, but she still had the power of voice to gain military power for two years, until her death at age nineteen. (She was burned at the stake.)
But whether or not she actually heard the voice of St. Catherine--I have some theories on that. 1- It is possible that she suffered from schizophrenia, (sp?) and thought that she heard the voices. Possible--but not probable, as the characteristics of schizophrenia are vile voices, that say horrible things, whereas Joan of Arc heard voices of Good--a Higher Power. 2- She could have lied about it, thinking that she had good military tactics, and could free all of France from the English. 3- She really could have heard the voices. What are your opinions and theories? |
Ah yes, Joan of Arc: the only man the French army ever had. Her fate is very similar to that of the fraudulent nun Elizabeth Barton, hung for predicting Henry's death. She may have worshipped as a Catholic, but you could still be a member of the church and commit heresy (subverting the many pharisee-like laws)
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Komnenos
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Posted: 10-Jan-2006 at 07:00 |
I don't think Joan of Arc belongs in here.
There was nothing particulary heretic about her, having visions was as common in the Middle Ages as having the plague.
She was of course accused of being a heretic during her trial, but that was never more than a pretext, to make a purely political murder seem legitimate.
The Catholic Church finally canonised her in 1909, something that wouldn't have happened if she really had promoted heretic ideas.
Edited by Komnenos
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Quetzalcoatl
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Posted: 09-Jan-2006 at 23:26 |
Originally posted by Scealai
Joan of Arc. She may not have been the best military leader, but she did amazing things. Even though she was Catholic, and France was predominantly Catholic, her claim to hear the voice of St. Catherine led her to be labled a heretic. She was seventeen, and just a peasant-woman from Domremy, but she still had the power of voice to gain military power for two years, until her death at age nineteen. (She was burned at the stake.)
But whether or not she actually heard the voice of St. Catherine--I have some theories on that. 1- It is possible that she suffered from schizophrenia, (sp?) and thought that she heard the voices. Possible--but not probable, as the characteristics of schizophrenia are vile voices, that say horrible things, whereas Joan of Arc heard voices of Good--a Higher Power. 2- She could have lied about it, thinking that she had good military tactics, and could free all of France from the English. 3- She really could have heard the voices. What are your opinions and theories?
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Joan of Arc a heretic? what the hell are you smoking mate? Nah, she didn't suffer from any form of schizophrenia, that's a nonsense from Luc Besson. She probably had a dream or something and was driven by faith alone.
Edited by Quetzalcoatl
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Scealai
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Posted: 09-Jan-2006 at 17:39 |
Joan of Arc. She may not have been the best military leader, but she did amazing things. Even though she was Catholic, and France was predominantly Catholic, her claim to hear the voice of St. Catherine led her to be labled a heretic. She was seventeen, and just a peasant-woman from Domremy, but she still had the power of voice to gain military power for two years, until her death at age nineteen. (She was burned at the stake.)
But whether or not she actually heard the voice of St. Catherine--I have some theories on that. 1- It is possible that she suffered from schizophrenia, (sp?) and thought that she heard the voices. Possible--but not probable, as the characteristics of schizophrenia are vile voices, that say horrible things, whereas Joan of Arc heard voices of Good--a Higher Power. 2- She could have lied about it, thinking that she had good military tactics, and could free all of France from the English. 3- She really could have heard the voices. What are your opinions and theories?
Edited by Scealai
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Diversity is what makes the world beautiful.
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Serge L
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Posted: 07-Jan-2006 at 12:44 |
Originally posted by Maju
I never thought as Giordano Bruno as an heretic but rather a scientist
that was prosecuted for his open mind not for keeping any diferent
doctrinal position. After reading your link, I still find no ground to
consider him a heretic, just a free thinker.
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I suppose you can be right, it depends on one's definition of heretic. In my definition, heretics . . . just not exist. Everybody has his or her own opinions and that is all. However, in such cases I usually take a pragmatist approach, and, since he was condemned as heretic (pls. see article). I included him here
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Komnenos
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Posted: 29-Nov-2005 at 19:21 |
Originally posted by Maju
There is some unclear legend about the Templars being influenced by the
Assasins, but I'm not sure how much of truth is in it.
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The theory goes, that the very idea of a strictly organised warrior/monk order as the Knights Templar, was adopted from the similar structured Assassins after the Christian knights had first come into contact with them. Although I have never seen it conclusively proven, the notion doesn't seem to be that absurd.
It might not have been the most decisive influence on the foundation of the Templars, but it might have occured to Hugo de Payens to build a Christian counter organisation to the by then rather powerful and influential Muslim order.
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Maju
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Posted: 29-Nov-2005 at 17:02 |
There is some unclear legend about the Templars being influenced by the
Assasins, but I'm not sure how much of truth is in it.
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Decebal
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Posted: 29-Nov-2005 at 16:00 |
Originally posted by Maju
Other heretics of my interest are the Assasins, Hashishims or Ismailite Nizaries of the period of Alamut. Hassan i' Sabbah is a true character, as would be later the Great Master of Syria, Sinan ed Din, the Sheikh of the Mountain of western myths, who apparently succeeded to coerce Saladin himself into "peace". There are many legends about how this happened, including that he threatened Saladin's mother with the total extintion of the lineage but one that I liked most tells that the envoy of Sinan asked Saladin to speak in private. Saladin promtly send everyone out but for two guards. And these?, asked the Assasin. They are like my sons, you can speak freely, replied the King. Then the envoy spoke to the guards: If I order you in the name of my master to kill this man, would you do it? To the surprise of Saladin, both handed their swords and replied: Whatever you command, we will obey. The exact truth though will never be known but Saladin never fought again against the Assasins.
The remains of Alamut, shattered by many earthquakes after its times of glory.
But much more interesting for my taste was the third Pir of Alamut and 23rd Imam of the Ismaili Nizaris, Hassan II (aka Mowlana Ala Zikrihis-Salam). This spiritual leader not only gave a new impusle to the "terrorist" policies of the Assasins but also, due to the pressure by more orthodox Muslims, he dared to proclaim the Qiyama or Resurrection. After he announced the New Era to men, angels and djinns in Alamut, they "santified" it by drinking wine while giving their backs to the direction of Mecca.
This Qiyama didn't last for long and Hassan II was poisoned five years later by some his own followers, returning the sect if not to orthodoxy at least to Islam. The Assasins were only destroyed by the Mongols, who captured Alamut. Curiously enough, though it's not well known, the Ismaili Nizari sect still exists and their leader and current Imam is the Agha Khan. Most of their followers live in India though.
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Actually there's a substantial community of Ismailis in Canada. I've met at least 3 unrelated Ismaili persons. They are all nice (at least on the surface), usually very well off, and very secretive about their religion. Quite interesting...
I do agree though: the Assassins are fascinating. I like the story of the visit of Count Henry of Champagne who visited the Assassins in 1194, and is supposed to have witnessed a remarkable display of loyalty on behalf of the followers of the "Old Man of the Mountain".
While walking together in the castle one day, Henry and the Assassin chief began to talk of obedience. Some youths in white were sitting on top of a high tower. "I will show you what obedience means", the chief said; he gave a sign, and immediately two of the youths leapt from the tower and were dashed to pieces at the foot of the rock.
Apparently the Count of Champagne took many of the Assassins organizational methods and employed them in the founding of the Templars.
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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
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eaglecap
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Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 18:41 |
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Maju
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Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 18:31 |
Other heretics of my interest are the Assasins, Hashishims or Ismailite
Nizaries of the period of Alamut. Hassan i' Sabbah is a true character,
as would be later the Great Master of Syria, Sinan ed Din, the Sheikh
of the Mountain of western myths, who apparently succeeded to coerce
Saladin himself into "peace". There are many legends about how
this happened, including that he threatened Saladin's mother with the
total extintion of the lineage but one that I liked most tells that the
envoy of Sinan asked Saladin to speak in private. Saladin promtly send
everyone out but for two guards. And these?, asked the Assasin. They are like my sons, you can speak freely, replied the King. Then the envoy spoke to the guards: If I order you in the name of my master to kill this man, would you do it? To the surprise of Saladin, both handed their swords and replied: Whatever you command, we will obey. The exact truth though will never be known but Saladin never fought again against the Assasins.
The remains of Alamut, shattered by many earthquakes after its times of glory.
But much more interesting for my taste was the third Pir of Alamut and
23rd Imam of the Ismaili Nizaris, Hassan II (aka Mowlana Ala
Zikrihis-Salam). This spiritual leader not only gave a new impusle to
the "terrorist" policies of the Assasins but also, due to the pressure
by more orthodox Muslims, he dared to proclaim the Qiyama or
Resurrection. After he announced the New Era to men, angels and djinns in Alamut, they "santified" it by drinking wine while giving their backs to the direction of Mecca.
This Qiyama didn't last for long and Hassan II was poisoned five years
later by some his own followers, returning the sect if not to orthodoxy
at least to Islam. The Assasins were only destroyed by the Mongols, who
captured Alamut. Curiously enough, though it's not well known, the
Ismaili Nizari sect still exists and their leader and current Imam is
the Agha Khan. Most of their followers live in India though.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Maju
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Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 17:47 |
Basques were prone to witchery and
eventually their monarchs adopted Protestantism as well, but the more
curious Basque heressy is that of the Begards of Durango.
C. 1425, Franciscan priest fray Alonso de Mella, brother of the Bishop
of Zamora, preached his Begard heressy in Durango, now Biscay but then
a separate district. His doctrine was as follow: combating the worship
of the cross, and the sacraments, particularly marriage and communion,
they practiced the "community of goods and women" (communism and
promiscuity) and proposed a re-reading of the Bible according to the
theory of the Three Ages: of the Father (Old Testament), of the Son
(New Testament) and of the Spirit (theirs). They favored personal
freedom, which they considered an experience of the Spirit, and they
considered themselves saints.
It seems that fray Alonso had many followers, specially women, many of
them originary from the Franciscan order (still very strong in the
Basque Country). His predicament took place for about 20 years without
any major intervention (Durango was a semi-independent territory). The
Begard/Beguine heressy (originary from northern Europe), that promoted
perfection of nature in Earth, had anyhow been condemned a century
before by the Council of Vienne and the particularly radical proposal
of the Durangese Begards actually was closer to that of the Brothers of
the Free Spirit, condemned even before by Boniface VIII.
Eventually the King (of Castile) intervened and put violently an end to
that heressy, burning many people on the stake (the martyrs of Durango
for some). Most obviously avoided punishment, through opportune
"repention" but the mystic-communist experience was supressed anyhow.
Fray Alonso managed to flee to Granada, then under Muslim rule, where
he tried to reproduce the experiment, attracting also many people. Yet
the Kings of Granada did not tolerate this for long and promtly
executed him.
Cross of Krutziaga, Durango, apparently erected after destroying the heressy.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Maju
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Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 17:11 |
I never thought as Giordano Bruno as an heretic but rather a scientist
that was prosecuted for his open mind not for keeping any diferent
doctrinal position. After reading your link, I still find no ground to
consider him a heretic, just a free thinker.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Serge L
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Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 16:15 |
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ulrich von hutten
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Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 01:42 |
Originally posted by Komnenos
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten
jan hus a professor of the karls -university of prague was burnt in
Constanz in 1415. he appointed to the authority of the bible.oh ,sorry
the dinner is prepared,later more ..
jan hus at contanc council
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Are you still eating? I know the Germans serve huge portions, but you have been at it all night.
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it was only a snack ,but then i felt asleep about your ancient jokes.
but indeed your informations about jan hus are right then.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 27-Nov-2005 at 20:10 |
Hm, I just realized that Luther is not quite Medieval, but cuts quite close. Mani, founder of the Manichaeans, belongs to the ancient world. In that case I will go with the Paulicians.
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Emperor Barbarossa
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Posted: 27-Nov-2005 at 20:08 |
Jan Hus, as mentioned in this thread, is one of my favorites. I
especially like one of the Hussites though, Jan Zizka. He fought with
the Poles at Grunwald and would later lead the Hussites through the
first few Crusades. I like the War Wagon Tactic .
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 27-Nov-2005 at 20:01 |
My favourite, only just edging in first ahead of the Paulicians and Manichaeans would be the Lutherans, also known as Protestants. Luther, their leader, protested against the gross corruption of the Papacy and lead the way to establish a Christian church which relied on the essential teachings of the Bible without the superfluous influence of ceremonial and landed authority. The new sect grew rapidly, primarily in Northern European nations where the emphasis on unceremonious worship and greater stress on worship taking a less overt form were appealing to the peoples in Northern Europe. Freed from the restrictions imposed by the traditional religious structures, people began increasingly to turn their attention to secular matters, in particular the pursuit of personal wealth and enterprise.
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Komnenos
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Posted: 27-Nov-2005 at 08:25 |
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten
jan hus a professor of the karls -university of prague was burnt in
Constanz in 1415. he appointed to the authority of the bible.oh ,sorry
the dinner is prepared,later more ..
jan hus at contanc council
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Are you still eating? I know the Germans serve huge portions, but you have been at it all night.
Yes, good old Jan Hus, he was promised safe-conduct by Emperor Sigismund, but as soon as he reached Constance, he was arrested, tortured, tried and finally burned at the stake by the good Christian Church authorities.
But his movement didn't die with him,his followers, the Hussites, fought a long war for their religion and their country against the Catholic Imperial authorities, and took revenge for Hus' death by laying waste to parts of Czechoslovakia and Germany.
Edited by Komnenos
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Jhangora
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Posted: 26-Nov-2005 at 12:56 |
For Indians it would be Kabir.
1398-1518
Kabir ranks among the world's greatest poets. In India, he is perhaps the most quoted author, with the exception of Tulsidas. Kabir has criticized perhaps all existing sects in India, still he is mentioned with respect by even orthodox authors. Vaishnav author Nabhadas in his Bhakta-Mal (1585) writes:
hindU turuk pramAn ramainI sabadI sAkhI pachchhapat nahiN bachan sabahiN ke hit kI bhAkhI
[His "ramaini" "shabda" "sakhi" (sections of his "Bijak") are accepted by Hindus and Turks alike. He spoke without discrimination for the good of all]
He lived perhaps during 1398-1448. He is thought to have lived longer than 100 years. He had enormous influence on Indian philosophy and on Hindi poetry.
His birth and death are surrounded by legends. He grew up in a Muslim weaver family, but some say he was really son of a Brahmin widow who was adopted by a childless couple. When he died, his Hindu and Muslim followers started fighting about the last rites. The legend is that when they lifted the cloth covering his body, they found flowers instead. The Muslim followers buried their half and the Hindu cremated thier half. In Maghar, his tomb and samadhi still stand side by side.
Here I quote some of his verses from his "Bijak", from the section called "sakhi". My translation follows the Gurumukh TIkA by Puran Sahib done perhas a century ago. He was associated with the Kabirpanthi center at Burhanpur. Kabir's writings can be hard to translate, not only because the language is old, but Kabir's expressions are different from what we are used to seeing.
The verses below use the term "hira" (diamond). It should be noted that during the time of Kabir, diamonds were very rare. At that time, diamonds were found only in India and nowhere else.
Bijak/Sakhi 168:
hIrA soi srAhiye sahai ghanan kI choT kapaT kurangI mAnavA parakhat nikrA khot
Admire the diamond that can bear the hits of a hammer. Many deceptive preachers, when critically examined, turn out to be false.
[Here diamond is siddhanta (the basic principles or doctrine).An experienced diamond cutter can hit the diamond using a chisel so that the chips will break off as expected. A diamond because if its crystalline structure tends to break off at specific angles. Similarly the true doctrine would come out shining when it is critically examined].
Bijak/Sakhi 170:
hIrA tahaN na kholiye jahaN kunjroN kI hAT sahajai gaNthI bANdhike lagiye apni bAT
Don't open your diamonds in a vegetable market. Tie them in bundle and keep them in your heart, and go your own way.
[Don't discuss gyan (knowledge) with those who can not understand it].
Bijak/Sakhi 171:
hIrA parA bajAr maiN rahA chhAr lapaTAy ketihe murakh pachi mUye koi pArakhi liyA uThAy
A diamond was laying in the street covered with dirt. Many fools passed by. Someone who knew diamonds picked it up.
[Those who understand gyan-siddhanta (true knowledge/principles), pause to acquire it].
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baagon naa jaa re naa jaa
Do not go to the garden of flowers! O friend! go not there; In your body is the garden of flowers. Take your seat on the thousand petals of the lotus, and there gaze on the infinite beauty.
koi prem ki peng jhulaao re
Hang up the swing of love today! Hang the body and the mind between the arms of the beloved, in the ecstasy of love's joy: Bring the tearful streams of the rainy clouds to your eyes, and cover your heart with the shadow of darkness: Bring your face nearer to his ear, and speak of the deepest longings of your heart. Kabir says: `Listen to me brother! bring the vision of the Beloved in your heart.'
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http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/kabir.html
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Jai Badri Vishal
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