Georgia in Medieval

Temujin, the links you provided dont prove anything. An NBA player on the Spurs named Tony Parker, is French by nationality and Algerian by ancestry. The name Tony Parker is neither French or Algerian, and therefore gives no clues or proof about his origin. The same can be said about your links. There are many Armenians that have last names ending in -ov and -oglu, this is because they are from Russia and Turkey. It gives no clues about their ethnic background. I even have Armenian friends with last names that end in -oglu, because their parents are born in Turkey. Likewise, Georgians dont use the name "Bagratuni", they Georgianized it and pronounce the name "Bagration". Notice the Armenian version ends in -uni while the Georgian version of the same name doesnt. So your name theory really has no validity, considering theres not a single Georigan surname ending with -uni on that list. Many of them end in -dze or -vili, but not a single -uni. My Armenian teacher's surname on the other hand, is Bagratuni. Yes, Bagratuni.

Armenian surnames in the first and early 2nd millenium A.D. rarely ended with -ian, as Artaxiad pointed out. We learned this in Armenian history class as well...most Armenian surnames of that period ended in -uni. The -ian ending was rare and there were some exceptions such as the Mamikonian noble family, which again Artaxiad already pointed out. Sure, the Arsacids were not Armenian in origin (they were Parthian as you said). Thats why others call them "Arsacid", and Armenians call them "Arshakuni", because they ruled Armenia and hence their names became Armenianized by the local population. We dont know them as the Arsacids, only as the Arshakuni.

Also, the first rulers of a sovereign Armenia had the surname Yervanduni, and they ruled from 585-200 B.C. Georgians adopted a lot of aspects of Armenian culture, such as the adoption of Christianity as their state religion (Armenia was the first Christian state on earth, with Georgia accepting not too long after), as well as Armenian architecture. They adopted the architecture because they had never built churches and therefore needed to take example from someone (just how the Greeks adopted the Egyptian contrapasto pose for their statues). Also, the Georgian alphabet was created by an Armenian named Mesrob Mashdots. Notice his surname does not end in -ian (he lived in the early 400's A.D.).

The two most famous Armenian historians are named Movses Khorenatsi and Aristakes Lastiverci. Movses is from the 5th century A.D. while Aristakes is from the 11th or 12th century. Again, theres no -ian surnames. The -ian surname usage on a mass scale is only a few hundred years old. The names on the list you provided are modern Armenian names, radically different from Armenian names a few hundred years earlier.

Plus, i already provided links that said the Bagratunis were active in Armenia in in the late 200's A.D., while they appear in Georgia about a thousand years later (with the migration of Prince Ashot of Armenia).


Edited by ArmenianSurvival

Yes Zagros you are right. I had a teacher with the last name -ian, but he was ethnically 100% Persian. Do Iranians use -ian widely or only to a certain extent? I ask because besides that one teacher, i have never heard of anyone with an -ian surname that wasnt Armenian, even though he told us some others use -ian, but only to a certain extent.

A few Bagratunis still exist today, such as Karim Pakradouni.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karim_Pakradouni

There aren't a lot of them, because the Byzantines killed most, or all of the Armenian noble families.

Zagros, I thought that ''ian'' was of Persian origin.

Edited by Artaxiad

It could be then, and if it is I would imagine that something like Hashemian would mean that he is from the Hashemi line.

Vakhtang I was a Gorgasali. The first Bagratuni king of Georgia was actually Gvaram I who ruled from 575-600 (only according to a Georgian source). And that doesnt mean much, either. The Bagratunis had many princes and prestiged family members for generations in Armenia before they actually crowned the first Bagratuni king.

And I still fail to see why the wikipedia source is being completely disregarded.

Heres another source:

"For example, in his History of Armenia Movses Khorenatsi traces the family origins of his sponsor prince Sahak Bagratuni to non-Armenian roots. However, the historical sources prove the existence of Bagratuni family in the most ancient period of the Armenian history and speak of them as aboriginal Armenians . The linguistic analysis also maintains that the name Bagarat most probably is of Indo-European origin and stems from bhaga (god) and arat (plentiful, rich), i.e. literally "divine plentitude" or "god's richness" . It is remarkable that prince Bagratuni himself rejected Khorenatsi's version of the origins of his family."

And when you mentioned the Bagratuni line being discontinued in Armenia and continued in Georgia...that doesnt prove they are Georgian. Armenian noble families would be killed all the time either by competing families or by foreign governments. This is evident throughout Armenian history:

"For example, in 705 the Arab ostikan (governor) of Armenia deceitfully invited around 800 Armenian noblemen together with their guards to Nakhichevan as if for negotiations and massacred them all . Nevertheless, some Armenian noble houses lived through this tragedy and continued their efforts to liberate the country. Some descendants of the Armenian nobility achieved high-ranking positions at foreign royal courts. For example, the offsprings of the Armenian noble house of Artzruni became influential grandees at the Georgian court. The Georgian branch of the Armenian noble family of Bagratuni was enthroned as Bagrationi and became the reigning house on Georgia."

Link:http://nobility.artsakhworld.com/Atabekian_Arm_Nobi lty_History_Eng.htm

Edit: For some reason, everytime i post a link, there is always a space somewhere in the link. Just close the spaces in the web address.
 


Edited by ArmenianSurvival

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival Also, the Georgian alphabet was created by an Armenian named Mesrob Mashdots. Notice his surname does not end in -ian (he lived in the early 400's A.D.).

the Georgian alphabet was created by King Pharnavaz (284-219 B.C.), and not by Armenian.

i

Edited by Herekles - 26-Jun-2006 at 22:22

btu as i said previously in the thread, Bagrationis appeared first in Gerogia, also their name implicates Georgian origin, not Armenian. and all the famous Bagrationis considdered themselves Georgians.

Armenians betrayed Vakhtang Gorgaslan,the founder of Tbilisi ,on the battle field against persians where he was murdered by Armenian throwing an arrow to him.....and in 1919 year Armenia demanded Tbilisi under their Rule and charged us without success......

As for Alphabets and church styles that's realy funny your claims.....in what century Armenian Alphabet was created?

I have a book of G. Kauhchishvili about Georgian-Byzantine relationships ("Georgian sources on Byzantine history", in *.pdf) ", but it is in Russian and Georgian. It consists of fragments of ancient Georgian historians.