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Court Backs Turkish Headscarf Ban

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    Posted: 25-Nov-2005 at 10:48
azimuth... tht's a very long... explaination there... and small... the font size too small....
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2005 at 10:35

ok a Turkish version

http://www.al-islam.com/trk/

just go to hadiths and then the prayer part

i hope its organised as the Arabic part.

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2005 at 10:30

opps sorry for the delay

i totally forgot about replaying to you.

so lests go.

Originally posted by Seko

Originally posted by azimuth

the one Islam ordered women to wear is different , that it has to cover all the hair and the neck and to be less attracting when the women is out of their homes

...dont know how you can use the christian and the jewish wearing of hijab against the using of hijab to musilms?

these two religions are supposed to be the same in line with islam and as per muslims belive that these religions were corrupted and changed by its people, so having some wearing hijabs can be considered one of the things which werent changed or corrupted.

Opinion or reality? Need proof from you on this one. Most traditionalists seem to follow the notion that women back then tied there hair behind their backs and all that the new revelations provided was to cover the hair fully past their necks.

- [33:59] "O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall LENGTHEN their
garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid
being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful."

So what could this mean azimuth? Lengthen garments. But it does not say how far. Thats is up to us. Avoid being insulted. Yeah! So they would not become harrassed by aggressive men who might think of them as something less noble or conservative. Notice how no punishment is proclaimed for believers who don't lengthen the garments. But I am sure the history of traditional Islam and the taliban types love to take basic freedoms and personal choice out of the equation.

Or is this how traditionalists treat their women?

Hadith - Al-Tirmidhi 3257, narrated Talq ibn Ali

Allah's Messenger said, "When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven."

[Tirmidhi transmitted it.]

 If the religion was not changed or corrupted then you are going against your own scholars?

Hadith - Bukhari 4:668, Narrated Abu Huraira , see also Bukhari 7:786

Allah's Apostle said, "The Jews and the Christians do not dye (their grey hair), so you shall do the opposite of what they do (i.e. dye your grey hair and beards)."

what proofs you want? how women dressed before Islam?

its even mentioned in the Quran about "Tabaruj" and "Zeenah" which was excessive before islam and women were ordered not to show their beauti to strangers. from these verses its clear that they did practice this type of clothes before islam and Islam forbid them from doing so.

also you are arguing not to follow what the scholars through history understood from the quran verses and you yourself translating the quran as per your own understanding from a translated verse!

also about the part of the verse which says  "Yudnynah Alyhunah Min Jalabeebhinah"

the word Yudnynah does not mean lengthen, it means lower, the word Alyhunah means Over them ( them as the women) the Ibn Katheer , Tabari, Qurtubi and Jalalyeen Tafseers agreed on that meant to cover the full body from head to feet and show only eyes.

As i said before when any verse came the scholars had to check what the muslims did in order to obay such verse. and those people of the time of the Prophet ( his companions) did understand these verses and acted accordingly.

if you think that you would understand these verses better than them from reading the translated verses you have soley without even checking history as a reference then i assure you that your arguments wont find much ears to listen to.

and about the Hadiths you used to make fun of, i advice you to re-check the occation when they came and what it was exactly meant from them, and most importantly to check their sources and if they are reliable or weak ones.

 

 

Originally posted by Seko

Originally posted by azimuth

lol

how is that in the contrary?

how did you assume that these verses were for the prophet wives?

did you even check the reasons behind these verses and when they came on which occations and what the muslims DID in order to follow these verses??

i can see you are using different meanings of the words in the quran i wonder which dictionary you are using.

also the word hijab has more than one meaning.

you cant just make up a conclution by yourself and deciede that these verses where for prophet's wives.

In the process of writing I wrote prophet's wives and not believers. Only the last verse specifically mentions prophet's wives. My mistake if you were confused. Obviously the two previous verses I mentioned were for women of all ages. You seemed to jump on that like you have made a great discovery. But the point and logic of my presentation has not changed. The things to keep in mind is that the best garment is righteousness modesty; covering bossoms, and lenghten garments (cover legs or chest for example) are physical ways to do so. This all helps keep the wolves at bay and brings respect to women.

iam not arguing that the best garment is righteousness modesty, iam talking about the clothes Islam ordered women to wear.

dont see who you decided that legs and chest are the "required" parts to cover.

obviously you are making decisions on the translated verses you have and taking the orders as per your own understanding, well people has different understanding to the same verse, and all has their reasons as you do, But which one is the correct one??

thats why History of the Actions been taken by the Prophet and his companions are the Strongest proofs of what is the verse Actully saying.

Originally posted by Seko

[

Originally posted by azimuth

what i meant from my quote which you used is that the quran came in the same exact languge as the Arab spoke that time WHICH means that it was understood by them faster and the Actions they took were the accurate ones regarding any order in any verse.

Arabs today do understand the Quran easly too but as you can see to know the exact requrement of certain verses Muslims had to check through history What the early muslims did when such order or requirenmt came.

iam not saying Arabs dont know what is written in the Quran unless they transtlate it. we do know whats written there and for more details about certain matter a history must be used

a simple example the prayers werent mentioned in details in the Quran.

how would you know that you  are praying as God wanted?!

it was explained by the Prophet as he said Pray as you saw me Pray.

I have no problem with the Quran today as being written in the same language as when it first was delivered. The actions taken, as you say, were shared by the prophet and followers. That is why it reminds people to follow God and the prophet. He was a role model. His guide was God and the Quran. The hadith books were not around at the time of the prophet. It would be absurd to think that his compatriots lived by contradictory standards created generations later when they were not cannonized. Muhammad received personal revelations too, like many other humans do. But, the Quran was the only revelation he was commissioned to deliver and it is the only revelation we are supposed to follow.

lol you are saying "that is why it reminds people to follow God and the Prophet and he was a role model"  a question, how would you follow the prophet without using the Hadiths???

also the Hadiths were nt created generations after the prophet, they were recorded along with the Quran, the Hadiths ( the ones agreed by all branches of Islam) are kept save from changes as the Quran. add to that the tail of sources reaching to the prophet were recorded too. you should look more into how Hadiths were collected and saved.

also as it said in more than one place  " Follow the Prophet" and "Obay the Prophet"

so how would you follow and Obay him? from what sources?  OR these verses has no meaning now since the Hadiths we have are "human made" and we are not supposed to consider when taking actions ?

Originally posted by Seko

[

If you think a believer needs to check with history and historical responses then you do not believe God that he is the teacher of the Quran. You need scholars and historians to tell you what to believe.

no not true , what you are saying here or what i understood from what you are saying here is that Interpert the Quran as you wish and say this what god said.

again the scholars aren't inventors of new things , most of them just collected the Historical responses from the Prophet and His companions to the verses of the Quran.

if the Prophet didnt act as God wanted Who would????????????

would it be the man who translated the verses of the quran (word by word) into english as the one who we should follow?

in this case you are not following what god says you are following what the english translator is saying and taking his translation directly as you understood.

Originally posted by Seko

[Seems that traditional believers tend to bring up this lack of detail bit into an arguement. Questions on prayers and such are given as examples. But if you look closer you will find it there in the Quran. I will show you if you do not have that info. But first, I am interested in how you get your info on prayer. Show me your hadiths on it. They must be out there somewhere. Are they detailed as you imply?

yea sure show me where the prayers are mentioned in detail in the Quran.

about the Hadiths talking about the prayers in details i found them and they are more organised in the Arabic version of the site than the english one

in Arabic

http://hadith.al-islam.com/subject/Hier.asp?from=5070&To =6071&ID=5069

in English

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Bayan/DisplayHits.asp?Lang=eng&am p;ID=2314&From=2315&To=2885

its from Saudi Arabia's Islamic Affairs ministry.

also you didnt tell me how do the women of the "Hijab ban supporters" pray?

if they are praying using the Hijab the question would be why?

Originally posted by seko

Lastly, I am of the mind that the Islamic religion is going through a reformation. It has in the past too. Yet currently we have greater access to vast amounts of information that enables us to question, confront or reafirm our own knowledge. The traditionalists will have to answer alot of questions with sound evidence while trying persuade inquisitive minds to see things there way. And the inquisitive ones will have much to say about age old beliefs. Commands will be evaluated and rules will be changed. People will be offended. But this is all worth it if the truth has a chance to surface. No more diets perscribed by the scholars (i.e.-shelled fish are harram); no more dress codes prescribed by scholars beyond the freedom of personal choice as layed out in the Quran; no more baseless commands. Piety is not how long one grows a beard or follows the rigours of blind superstitions. To each their own.   

i think there are alot of Scholars and Religous people will be happy to answer your questions, you dont even need to meet them, just mail them.

and as i said before what you understand is not what all the people understand from the Quran its wise to see what others think and why they think so.

by others i mean people who spended longer time of their lives studing the Quran and its commands and rules and system.

you know the Quran came in more than 20 years to the prophet, it didnt come once.

why do you think is that?

were they were dumb in the past that they wont get what the verses say?

in your quick analysis and decisions about the Quran and its commands from what translation you have and talking the verses by the translated brief words, you know that there is a reason why Arabic was chosen to be the language of the Quran.

Arabs at those times were very hard to convence, and they were mastering the way of talking in all occasions , the Quran came in Arabic as a Challege to them and they faild to even try to compete.many of them converted to Islam from hearing one chapter or even one verse.

my point is that each verse has much deeper meaning in what it appears to be.

 

 

 



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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2005 at 11:19

Mortaza you said I was changing the facts, so can you also tell me and to the public why the headscarf is banned after 1998 while it was free before that time?(may be 1997 either not quite sure about that)

Because Erbakan talked much,  so  because he talk  bad, you have right to  suspend millions rights?

One guy said and millions paid his price? justice? how many innocent suffered because of this law? or do you think, no innocent sufferred?

By the way, headscarf is always banned, before 1988 or after, wearing headscarf is ignored. Remember acording  to law, you should wear hat.

 

 

 

 

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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2005 at 11:10

Mortaza you said I was changing the facts, so can you also tell me and to the public why the headscarf is banned after 1998 while it was free before that time?(may be 1997 either not quite sure about that)

Anyone in Turkey can see all the facts, I don't wanna make any claims upon you or etiquette you based on our past talks,but so at least let's not fool each other and people from rest of the world here.

I had already stated my opinion about it, and stated I am either a Muslim, but Turkey's situation here, unfortunately doesn't allow such a thing as it is being abused.

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  Quote oTToMAn_TurK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2005 at 10:17
Originally posted by Mortaza

Banning headscarf or forcing headscarf is two side of same coin, I wont call one better. Both of them suspend basic right of humans.

well said, i agree

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2005 at 10:02

So they are actually bribing families to force their women to wear the veil... I see.

Infact you see nothing, what he means scholarship. I dont understand how did you understand this something related  with family.

And Religious people or instutitions are not only scholarship givers.  There are other instutitions too(pro-kemalist, mason, or christians)  I dont see, how  can you see this as a bribe?

Not actually, have you seen the pictures posted by Mila of Bosnian Muslim women? They do not wear headscarf but they do wear miniskirt at times. In my neighborhood, old Muslim ladies do but young ones mostly don't. It's a vanishing fashion

Realy? I didnt know, bosnia is only muslim country. you can see headscarf  used all of world by muslims. I didnt say, every muslim use it.Infact It is not a vanishing fashion in Turkey. Even state force people, Number of Muslims who use headscarf in Turkey is increasing. By the way, It is not a fashion.

Typical traditional Islamic prejudism in action?  Looks like Turkey isn't the only country facing the injustices of religious bigots

This is not our topic, lets dont change topic. we are not playing ping-pong.

 

While some are fighting the ban against headscarves, others are struggling against order to put them on. In the Netherlands, Muslim teacher Samira Haddad filed a suit against Amsterdam's Islam Preparatory School when her application for work there was rejected on the basis of her not wearing a headscarf."

so? why did you paste this? I dont think this is related with our topics, and I dont think anyone support this action.This is exactly same thing with banning headscarf.

 

Turkey may sound extreme, but I would rather have it her way then let fundamentalists take it over and make all women were a headscarf. Look at the Iranian women. That is one kind of revolution that is not welcome in Turkey

LOL, seco you just exactly showed us what I said before, you are scaring us with iran, but as I said before, in core, we are same with iran but lets say our face is more beatiful.

Banning headscarf or forcing headscarf is two side of same coin, I wont call one better. Both of them suspend basic right of humans.

 

 

 

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2005 at 08:17

Typical traditional Islamic prejudism in action?  Looks like Turkey isn't the only country facing the injustices of religious bigots.

"While some are fighting the ban against headscarves, others are struggling against order to put them on. In the Netherlands, Muslim teacher Samira Haddad filed a suit against Amsterdam's Islam Preparatory School when her application for work there was rejected on the basis of her not wearing a headscarf." http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20051118093203684

Turkey may sound extreme, but I would rather have it her way then let fundamentalists take it over and make all women were a headscarf. Look at the Iranian women. That is one kind of revolution that is not welcome in Turkey.



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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2005 at 04:33

give extra monetary help to those who wear the headscarf.

Not excatly true, even If this is true,this means nothing, this people use headscarf with their free will and let remember, they have more thing to loose than gain. Remember they wont let to enter uni, If they use headscarf.


So they are actually bribing families to force their women to wear the veil... I see.

They want to put the religion into the politics, which is basically against a secular state system.

Nonsense, all  world muslim use headscarf, do you think all of them is against turkish secular state system? ridiculus.


Not actually, have you seen the pictures posted by Mila of Bosnian Muslim women? They do not wear headscarf but they do wear miniskirt at times. In my neighborhood, old Muslim ladies do but young ones mostly don't. It's a vanishing fashion.


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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2005 at 04:10

is a matter of choice. And people in Turkey are free to wear it except those who work for the state institutions and high school/university students(So still the state institutions). So there is freedom except for the workers of those places.

 

I dont  think becoming a student can be called as a workers of those places.

Hospitals, public parks or even some big banks are state institution, will we not accept ill people because they use headscarfs, because hospital is  state instutition? No need to distort fact, and lets remember, headscarfs not only banned at state univercity but also private university, so this state institution dont hold much water.

So, what we discuss here is the dressing of headscarf in the state institutions.But Turkey's situation is different here on that specific issue.

Yeah, I agree, we have a little different from france or germany. Our population is mostly muslim.

The extreme-Islamic sects and sectarians use headscarf as an Islamic symbol. They even force some students to wear that to make their propaganda.

lie, noone is forcing student to wear headscarf(they have no force), but state force them to not use headscarf. Changing fact?

by the way, what it this The extreme-Islamic sects and sectarians?

I dont know any The extreme-Islamic sects who is effective too much in Turkey, but I think for you, wearing headscarf make every one, extreme islamic sect.

give extra monetary help to those who wear the headscarf.

Not excatly true, even If this is true,this means nothing, this people use headscarf with their free will and let remember, they have more thing to loose than gain. Remember they wont let to enter uni, If they use headscarf.

They want to put the religion into the politics, which is basically against a secular state system.

Nonsense, all  world muslim use headscarf, do you think all of them is against turkish secular state system? ridiculus.

 They want to found a theocratic regime in Turkey in long term. So, what makes headscarf to be banned in these state institutions were the abuse of them.

what I can see is, state is pressuring religious people, not otherwise.You cannot punish someone, because you think he would do something. Against every basic of law.

there cannot be any punishment  without guilt.

Some people didn't wear it for their own reasons, but for their sect's reasons, they weren't really cordial.

Absurd, cant find other word.

they  wear headscarf not their religious idea but politic idea. Great sense, just curiosity, do this people also pray for their politic ideas?

Either, the traditional headscarf worn in Turkey is a little different from the turban which some groups use, mostly still for provocative reasons

let me think, banning headscarf is accepted, but wearing is called as provocative. are you out of mind, do your grantmother wear it because  of provocative reason? hit her, she is provoking you.

Especially, there are some who is around with black sheets, closing even their nose and one eye, that is really absurd, and has nothing to do with religion.

this is their decision, not yours. and lets remember they are minority of minority. even, no need to mention(of course If you have good will)

 

So, I am personally not against headscarfs being worn in those state institutions as it is worn outside, but of course if it is made cordially, from the heart, in the right form,not the provocative one and not abused by blending religion and politics.

can you tell me, what they should do, to be not called as provocative? do not wear headscarf?

 

What is done in Turkey was something abusive, and the court is totally right about this issue considering terms of secularism.Some things had to be given to prevent more dangerous things.

So you are not against headscarf. I understand you, remember your grand mother is enemy of state. (most probably she is wearing  headscarf)

It is not banned in Turkey, I had several Armenian people in my old school when I was in high school, walking around freely with their crosses on and showing them to us intentionally.

oh so this crosses are also provocative. To much provocation in Turkey.

Ironic, minority have more right than majority. they can use their cross, but a muslim cannot use headscarf.

By the way, dont you think, Iranian goverment also think not using headscarf is provoking.

I think our country is different than Iran(Infact It is mainly said, If we let this people use headscarf, our country would become like Iran)

But It looks like your country is almost same with iran, just different face..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2005 at 01:24

Originally posted by Kapikulu

.The extreme-Islamic sects and sectarians use headscarf as an Islamic symbol. They even force some students to wear that to make their propaganda.They give extra monetary help to those who wear the headscarf. They want to put the religion into the politics, which is basically against a secular state system. They want to found a theocratic regime in Turkey in long term.

How did a simple right of choice turns to be at the end a step toward a theocratic regime!

Making assumption that Islamist parties are giving money for spread of headscarf and to increase religion involvement in politics is an untested claim. Also, working toward religious groups invovlement in politics is not a bad thing. In fact, it encourages the application of the state system on all groups and provide an access to authority to all the groups in a true democracy. Instead of frustrated members who cannot participate in decision making turning against the state and adopt extreme measures, allowing them to participate is alwaying them to persue their believes and goals through systematic and recognized channels.

By the way, many religious groups operate in many secular countries, even in France, Germany, Austria....etc.  In fact, some European countries witnessed an increase of  the right & conservative groups involvement in politics, as recently the Christian Democrat party succeeding in Germany.

Increased representation of Islamic parties in Turkey should not be a worry if there is a true democracy as people are englighted and free to choose their approperiate next president. It can only worry either  Islamo-phobic or fanatic secular who sees every increase of religious representation a direct threat to the whole democratic system! As if religious groups can produce only theocratic leaders!



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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2005 at 19:18

Originally posted by morticia

In one of the phrases above, it is written:
"shame of sex".
Why is sex considered shameful? It is a normal function for the male and female human species, not to mention neurologically and physically necessary to maintain hormonal levels (chemical imbalances) at a normal level!

Sex without marriage is banned in Islam as it is considered as adultery.

It has reasons though, to provide true loyalty and commitment and either, we see children being left by parents, and AIDS,syphilis etc. 

It is the rule, some apply it, some don't

And about the scarf stuff in Qur'an, from what I know either, there is no clear and bare statement about covering the head, it is about covering the bosom as I read in some Turkish translations.

Originally posted by Maju


Not sure in Turkey but in France you must (at schools). Of course small disimulated crosses or other symbols are not included, what are banned are explicit ostentative religious symbols.

It is not banned in Turkey, I had several Armenian people in my old school when I was in high school, walking around freely with their crosses on and showing them to us intentionally.

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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2005 at 17:32
Originally posted by Seko

Pretty much my sentiments too Kapikulu.

Thanks a lot,Seko

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2005 at 17:25

Pretty much my sentiments too Kapikulu.

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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2005 at 16:48

I will state my own ideas about that.

I totally have nothing against people wearing headscarfs or not. It is a matter of choice. And people in Turkey are free to wear it except those who work for the state institutions and high school/university students(So still the state institutions). So there is freedom except for the workers of those places.

So, what we discuss here is the dressing of headscarf in the state institutions.But Turkey's situation is different here on that specific issue.

The extreme-Islamic sects and sectarians use headscarf as an Islamic symbol. They even force some students to wear that to make their propaganda.They give extra monetary help to those who wear the headscarf. They want to put the religion into the politics, which is basically against a secular state system. They want to found a theocratic regime in Turkey in long term. So, what makes headscarf to be banned in these state institutions were the abuse of them.Some people didn't wear it for their own reasons, but for their sect's reasons, they weren't really cordial.

Either, the traditional headscarf worn in Turkey is a little different from the turban which some groups use, mostly still for provocative reasons.Especially, there are some who is around with black sheets, closing even their nose and one eye, that is really absurd, and has nothing to do with religion.

So, I am personally not against headscarfs being worn in those state institutions as it is worn outside, but of course if it is made cordially, from the heart, in the right form,not the provocative one and not abused by blending religion and politics.

What is done in Turkey was something abusive, and the court is totally right about this issue considering terms of secularism.Some things had to be given to prevent more dangerous things.

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2005 at 20:03
Mortaza worte:
"It is not important if headscarf is related with islam or not. headscarf ban is related with freedom. Even If It have no relation with islam, people should have right to use it."

totally agree. This isnt about religion just freedom of expression, and hec fashion!! This problem i hope Erdogan can fix.




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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2005 at 11:29
I really don't know how I feel about the banning of
headscarves anymore.

Firstly, it's very important to distinguish between a
headscarf or veil and the idea of hijab, or modesty.

You can wear a headscarf with the most tight-fitting,
revealing outfits and then it has absolutely no
religious relevence because it defeats the whole
purpose. Likewise you can still be modest in
thousands of other styles and fashions that still
conform to Islamic rules.

So are they banning a fashion accessory, or a
religiously-motived idea? The story that they also
banned women from wearing bandanas as a
substitute seems to suggest they're banning the
religious idea, which I don't support. But then again,
Turkey is a secular country - and the majority of the
population are proud of that, want it, and fight for it -
every day. What I would consider harmless, by my
country's standards and what threats we face, might
seem as bad as domestic terrorism to most Turks.

And the same is true in reverse. Take a Jehovah's
witness visiting door-to-door. In Dallas, Texas, it
might be a simply inconvenience. In Zepa, Bosnia, it
would probably be a terrifying, uncomfortable
experience. In Tel Aviv, Israel, I believe it's even a
crime? Like Shakespeare said: Nothing is either
good or bad, thinking makes it so.

As for banning a veil, who cares. These politicians
have to feed their egos and feel they're doing
something. As for banning a religious idea, that
shouldn't be allowed. Secular states aren't Godless
or soulless states, or at least they don't have to be.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2005 at 10:54

Darn! I don't like it when this happens.

When I say government, I mean the ruling bodies in charge. So for clarity sake and my lack of being more specific I should say 'Governmental bodies'. That would be the current reigning political parties, National Secutity Council, Office of the President and the Constitution. So in this sense the process of checks and balances would approve/reject such laws.

I agree that freedoms of expression can improve.

 

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2005 at 10:32

I think that the government is being protectionist.

which goverment  you mean? I cant see any goverment protectionist  against headscarf ban. this issue has nothing with goverment.  Infact Erdogan goverment is complately against to this ban.isnt this a little weird? goverment was choosen by turkish people, but he cannot even stop this nonsense ban? Ban is not wish of turkish people.

It is not important if headscarf is related with islam or not. headscarf ban is related with freedom. Even If It have no relation with islam, people should have right to use it.

 

 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2005 at 02:15
Originally posted by ill_teknique

Originally posted by ok ge

 

Originally posted by Maju

. but I hate the feeling of being limited..

That is the whole foundation of our argument. When it is allright for you to excercise options of not feeling limited and when is it not your right to unlimit yourself. You have to teach yourself to accept feeling of being limited. From simple things as being limited not to eat the whole candy box in a store without being able to pay for it, all the way to limiting your sex adventure to your truely chosen beloved wife.

To say "I hate the feeling of being limited" is kind of a selfish statement.



That is what is supposed to seperate us from lower animals, the ability to reason and the ability to limit ourselves and supress our animal urges and practice self control.  If anyone has a question of why muslims fast during Ramadan that would be it.


While I don't have any objection about ascestism, fasting and other self-imposed restrictions for one's spiritual improvement. I also think that just that doesn't make us humans.

What make us humans is the great fan of choices we can make with our intelligence, using the animal instincts or overcoming them at our convenience.

Instincts are not anything negative on themselves, the animal, the body is like a car. It's useful and you have to give it some attention, according to its needs. You just can't start beating the car because you will break it, you can't force it to break in ice conditions because you are likely to lose control and crash, you can't put water in the depot because the car won't work, etc. While prescinding of the car and walking for instance is good, while not abusing the potential of the car is good, you just can't abandon the car in a corner because it will break down on lack of use.

There is an intermediate path: enjoying the car (the body) in a reasonable manner, which is diferent depending on each person and group of people.

...

I definitively don't want a posessive couple. I just can't bear it. I need a free person like myself. What I look for in a couple is understanding, respect, friendship, not dependence and posession.

Overdependence and possesivity are destructive and paranoid. It's sick. I know well.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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