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Who is the better brother Ce or Quan

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who is the better brother Ce or Quan
    Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 23:03
Hi many people read the Romance of the Three Kingdom and I found it very interesting to discuss rather Sun Ce or Sun Quan is the better ruler or Quan.
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 23:39
Sun Ce
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  Quote Koguryeo-sonyeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 03:00

I love Three kingdom story~!

But I don't know Chinese pronunciation. so I can't say at all. T_T 

Who is the Sun Ce and Sun Quan~~! =_=

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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 03:35

in Korean pronounciation, they would be Son Chaek and Son Gwon.

and Sun Ce is definately better

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  Quote Koguryeo-sonyeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 06:41

Thanks I/eye! I can tell about them thanks to you!

In my thought Sun Quan(son gwon)

Is his elder brother Sun Ce impatient?  Clear away novel. Their nation continued 52 years.

The period of (Ohh in Korean pronunciation) ruled by Sun Quan.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 21:13
Personally I think Cao Cao and Liu Bei would had lots of problem if Sun Ce was alive. Because he can work in politics and in battle. He can also strategize. It said that Sun Ce was loved in the Southland when he was the ruler.
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  Quote Beijingguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 06:32

The empire of Tamerlan was highly depend on the personal ability of its founder, but it quickly fell apart after his death. So was Alexander's.

like  Chinese saying " it's hard to do the pioneering work, but it's even harder to maintain the estates".

With an able founder but without able successors, the kingdom would not survive for long.

Given Cao Cao was quite the victor in northern China, who possess wisdom and power to overcome his strong adversaries, the "battle of GuanDu" decisively weakened his strongest rival the YuanShao clan.

But after consolidating his rule over whole of north, Cao Cao couldnt manage to defeat the Wu kingdom in the south which was ruled by Sun Quan. He suffered humiliating defeat at the famous "battle of ChiBi" by the hands of Sun(Wu royal house)-Liu(laterly, the kingdom of ShuHan's royal house, which makes one of the 3 kingdoms) alliance.

Later, LiuBei, emperor of ShuHan kingdom also suffered same humiliating defeat by the Wu at the famous "battle of YiLing", in which Liubei's huge army was utterly destroyed by Wu army,he died after this blow.this time Wu was still under Sun Quan's rule.

Of course one can say its not Sun Quan's ability that defeated the Wei kingdom at "ChiBi" or the ShuHan kingdom at "YiLing", as they were executed by the famous Wu commanders, ZhouYu's ChiBi, LuXun's YiLing victories.

But just like the Chinese saying " without a wise ruler, there would be no able generals under the service", remember the founder of the Han dynasty LiuBang once said " to lead an army fighting battles i can not match General HanXin's ability, to excellently execute state affairs, prime minister XiaoHe is better than me, to draft strategy, i can not compare to ZhangLiang's wisdom, but what makes me notable is that i can utilize all of them under my service."

So my credit to both the Sun brothers.



Edited by Beijingguy
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 12:43
I have to san Sun Quan.  Ce was too impulsive.  Quan was not very brilliant, but understood his abilities and also understood when and who do delegate authority to.  Not many would be confortable to have a Zhou Yu take such a visable leadership role but Quan was. 
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 17:36

Sun Quan was actually dependent on the Southern aristocracy for his power and influence.  He had to give power to the likes of Zhou Yu, Lu Su, and Zhang Zhao because he needed them, as members of the elite class in the South, to support him.  Overtime, however, after Sun Quan consolidated his power base and when the Three Kingdoms had become a unrefutable reality, he began to undermine the power of the Southern aristocracy.  The most notable action that Sun Quan undertook to undermine the Southern aristocracy was the forced suicide of Lu Xun.  Towards his death, Sun Quan clearly favored Zhuge Ge, nephew of Zhuge Liang, over Lu Xun and other Southern aristocrats because Shuge Ge's family was not from the Southern elite, and thus did not pose a threat to the Wu ascendency.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 17:38
Without Sun Ce there will be no Wu Kingdom
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 17:39
Originally posted by poirot

Sun Quan was actually dependent on the Southern aristocracy for his power and influence.  He had to give power to the likes of Zhou Yu, Lu Su, and Zhang Zhao because he needed them, as members of the elite class in the South, to support him.  Overtime, however, after Sun Quan consolidated his power base and when the Three Kingdoms had become a unrefutable reality, he began to undermine the power of the Southern aristocracy.  The most notable action that Sun Quan undertook to undermine the Southern aristocracy was the forced suicide of Lu Xun.  Towards his death, Sun Quan clearly favored Zhuge Ge, nephew of Zhuge Liang, over Lu Xun and other Southern aristocrats because Shuge Ge's family was not from the Southern elite, and thus did not pose a threat to the Wu ascendency.

Wow!  I knew some of that, but you gave so much more info.  Thanks!

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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 18:27
Originally posted by jiangweibaoye

Originally posted by poirot

Sun Quan was actually dependent on the Southern aristocracy for his power and influence.  He had to give power to the likes of Zhou Yu, Lu Su, and Zhang Zhao because he needed them, as members of the elite class in the South, to support him.  Overtime, however, after Sun Quan consolidated his power base and when the Three Kingdoms had become a unrefutable reality, he began to undermine the power of the Southern aristocracy.  The most notable action that Sun Quan undertook to undermine the Southern aristocracy was the forced suicide of Lu Xun.  Towards his death, Sun Quan clearly favored Zhuge Ge, nephew of Zhuge Liang, over Lu Xun and other Southern aristocrats because Shuge Ge's family was not from the Southern elite, and thus did not pose a threat to the Wu ascendency.

Wow!  I knew some of that, but you gave so much more info.  Thanks!

no problem

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  Quote fastspawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 07:00
Would Zhou Yu have such an important role to play if Sun Ce was long-lived? I think the reason for Wu ascendency was Zhou Yu. Could Sun Ce do the same?
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 10:28
Originally posted by poirot

Originally posted by jiangweibaoye

Originally posted by poirot

Sun Quan was actually dependent on the Southern aristocracy for his power and influence.  He had to give power to the likes of Zhou Yu, Lu Su, and Zhang Zhao because he needed them, as members of the elite class in the South, to support him.  Overtime, however, after Sun Quan consolidated his power base and when the Three Kingdoms had become a unrefutable reality, he began to undermine the power of the Southern aristocracy.  The most notable action that Sun Quan undertook to undermine the Southern aristocracy was the forced suicide of Lu Xun.  Towards his death, Sun Quan clearly favored Zhuge Ge, nephew of Zhuge Liang, over Lu Xun and other Southern aristocrats because Shuge Ge's family was not from the Southern elite, and thus did not pose a threat to the Wu ascendency.

Wow!  I knew some of that, but you gave so much more info.  Thanks!

Poirot,

I have to ask, who was your favorite character in the Three Kingdoms?

Jiangwei

no problem

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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 10:28

Originally posted by fastspawn

Would Zhou Yu have such an important role to play if Sun Ce was long-lived? I think the reason for Wu ascendency was Zhou Yu. Could Sun Ce do the same?

Good point!

Jiangwei

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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 17:35

Originally posted by fastspawn

Would Zhou Yu have such an important role to play if Sun Ce was long-lived? I think the reason for Wu ascendency was Zhou Yu. Could Sun Ce do the same?

more reason why Sun Ce is better.

Sun Ce was someone Zhou Yu could work under.

Sun Quan was someone that needed Zhou Yu to take over the entire matter

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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 18:33
Had Sun Ce lived longer, then he would have given more room for Taishi Ci to contribute to the Wu.  With Sun Quan, Taishi Ci was unable to prove himself worthy of anything except being an ordinary field general under Zhou Yu and Lu Su.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2005 at 21:12
If Sun Ce lived longer Zhou Yu would probably too because they together can toppled the empire. Cao Cao or Liu Bei would have a hard time to gain power. Sun Ce in the south was already making Cao Cao fearing him. If he wasn't hurt he would kick Cao Cao out of Xu Chang and held the emperor himself.
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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2005 at 21:45

I don't think so..

I can see him follow through with Zhou Yu's "strategy of division in two, of land under the heaven" and having a two kingdoms period, but I'm not sure about going straight to Xu Chang like that..

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  Quote Censored Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 01:16

Originally posted by azndavid1

Hi many people read the Romance of the Three Kingdom and I found it very interesting to discuss rather Sun Ce or Sun Quan is the better ruler or Quan.

i think sun ce.

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