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Arabians at Constantinople

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  Quote Red_Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Arabians at Constantinople
    Posted: 03-Jun-2005 at 08:59
What will you say about Simeon I The Great one of the most ruler who siege the Constantinopole.There is very comic fact>In 922 he send a groupe of diplomats to talk with arabian halif to provide his fleet.But the byzantine learn for it and kill diplomats in Antioch.I think that with arabian fleet and about 100 000 bulgarian army Constantinopole cuold be captured.I'm sorry for my bad English
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2005 at 06:21

Originally posted by Red_Lord

What will you say about Simeon I The Great one of the most ruler who siege the Constantinopole.There is very comic fact>In 922 he send a groupe of diplomats to talk with arabian halif to provide his fleet.But the byzantine learn for it and kill diplomats in Antioch.I think that with arabian fleet and about 100 000 bulgarian army Constantinopole cuold be captured.I'm sorry for my bad English

Believe me, something like that is impossible to orchestrate. If the Arabs, with all their sophistication and organisation, couldn't take Constantinople then I don't think they would ingenuously just send off their precious navy to be commandeered by a nation as young and with the limited power of the Bulgars.

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2005 at 06:38

well arabs were not able to take Constantinople in the 7th century but they were able to take it in the 9th century,

below is from the Wikipedia

In military matters, Harun was an excellent soldier and showed this ability at a young age when his father was still caliph. He later commanded an army of 95,000 Arabs and Persians, sent by his father to invade the Eastern Roman Empire, which was then ruled by the Empress Irene. After defeating Irene's famous general, Nicetas, Harun marched his army to Chrysopolis (now Scutari) on the Asiatic coast, opposite Constantinople. He encamped on the heights, in full view of the Roman capital. The Empress saw that the city would certainly be taken by the Muslims. She therefore sent ambassadors to Harun to arrange terms; but he sternly refused to agree to anything except immediate surrender. It is reported that then one of the ambassadors said, "The Empress has heard much of your ability as a general. Though you are her enemy, she admires you as a soldier." These flattering words were pleasing to Harun. He walked to and fro in front of his tent and then spoke again to the ambassadors. "Tell the Empress," he said, "that I will spare Constantinople if she will pay me seventy thousand pieces of gold as a yearly tribute. If the tribute is regularly paid Constantinople shall not be harmed by any Muslim force." The Empress agreed to these terms. She paid the first year's tribute; and soon the great Muslim army set out on its homeward march. The tribute of gold that the Empress Irene agreed to pay Harun was sent regularly for many years. It was always received at Baghdad with great ceremony. The day on which it arrived was made a holiday. The Roman soldiers who came with it entered the gates in procession. Muslim troops also took part in the parade. When the gold had been delivered at the palace, the Roman soldiers were hospitably entertained, and were escorted to the main gate of the city when they set out on their journey back to Constantinople. In AD 802 Nicephorus usurped the throne of the Eastern Empire. He sent ambassadors with a letter to Harun to tell him that the tribute would no longer be paid. The letter contained these words:

"The weak and faint-hearted Irene submitted to pay you tribute. She ought to have made you pay tribute to her. Return to me all that she paid you; else the matter must be settled by the sword."

As soon as Harun had read these words the ambassadors threw a bundle of swords at his feet. The caliph smiled, and drawing his own sword, or scimitar, he cut the Roman swords in two with one stroke without injuring the blade, or even turning the edge of his weapon. Then he dictated a letter to Nicephorus, in which he said:

"Harun-al-Rashid, Commander of the Faithful to Nicephorus, the Roman dog: I have read thy letter. Thou shalt not hear, thou shalt see my reply."

Harun was as good as his word. He started that day with a large army to punish the emperor. As soon as he reached Roman territory he ravaged the country and took possession of everything valuable that he found. He laid siege to Heraclea, a city on the shores of the Black Sea, and in a week forced it to surrender. Then he sacked the place. Nicephorus was now forced to agree to pay the tribute. Scarcely, however, had the caliph reached his palace in Baghdad when the emperor again refused to pay. Harun, consequently, advanced into the Roman province of Phrygia, in Asia Minor, with an army of 15,000 men. Nicepherus marched against him with 125,000 men. In the battle which followed the emperor was wounded, and 40,000 of his men were killed. After this defeat Nicephorus again promised payment of the tribute, but again failed to keep his promise. Harun now vowed that he would kill the emperor if he should ever lay hands upon him. But as he was getting ready to march once more into the Roman provinces a revolt broke out in one of the cities of his own kingdom; and while on his way to suppress it he died of an illness which had long given him trouble. He is said to be buried in Tus.

 

 



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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2005 at 06:39

Especially since the Arab fleed was devastated in their previous efforts by the "Greek fire" and the walls of Constantinople proved to be impregnable. At least until artillery was introduced in sieges.

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2005 at 07:42
Very true, you needed a navy to take Constantinople. Many times a huge army sat impotently outside Constantinople, but no one without a navy ever managed to take it.
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  Quote Red_Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 07:11
I agree with you.Without navy it's impossible to capture Constantinopole.And I do not said that Bulgars will rule arabs navy.They did not have any expierence with ships.But well-prepared attack of Bulgars and Arabs in 922 might be a disaster for Constantinopole.Look in 922 the situation wasn't so pink for Romeis.The tribes around Bulgaria-Pechenegs Kumans and other were mastered by Simeon.Bulgarian army was just before the walls of the first fortress.And we talk for about 200 000 or more soldiers from +tribes.You have to know that in 917 Bulgarian and Romes army fight in one of the biggest bloodshed in both history.From 70 000 romes only 2000 succeed to escape in Mesemvria.This factor that many of you didn't know.The situation was very critical for Romes.And the killing of Bulgars massanger was a great thing in Romes diplomacy

 



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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 23:40

It is actually quite interesting you bring up the conflict between Romanus I and Symeon. The truth of the matter was it didn't really matter how many men you threw against the walls, in the end it was a triple wall system which could hold off massive attacks provided the walls were properly manned.

On paper the loss of most of their European possessions and a massive Bulgar army encamped outside Constantinople probably looks pretty bad. The truth is it didn't really have a critical impact on the Byzantines. Their source of strength and power lay in Anatolia, and while Symeon's army was twiddling their thumbs infront of Constantinople Romanus was happily sending off large armies to wage campaigns in Armenia and the Taurus mountains. The fact that the Emperor was quite happy to send the bulk of his forces off on a campaign in the East and simply disregard the Bulgar army as an annoying nuisance gives you some idea of how much of a threat the Bulgars were to Byzantium.

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  Quote Red_Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 06:42

Well,well you think that "Bulgar army as an annoying nuisance".I will say you that in 917 all seven legions send off against Bulgaria were from Anatolia.Do you know that in 896 there was another war between Symeon and Byzantium known as The Battle At Bulgarofigon.The reason is moving of Bulgars trader from Constantinopole to Solun(Thessalonicky).In this war lost by Byzantines of course all four Balkan legions were disabled to stop Bulgars.They were constrained to reform the four legions in two(the reason is simple they didn't have enough soldiers.I agree with you that the defence of the "Vasilevscity" incredible and without fleet it a imagine to be captured.But you may be don't know that Symeon  studied in Constantinopole and was called "semi-greek".He knew all diplomatic games and his teacher(I didn't remember his name)said:"We produce the perfect emperor but he is not rome."And if you don't know in the period we are talking about Byzantium was ruled by Irina(Roman's mother).She was not very famous with her tactical knolidge and she have never listened to his strategickons.

I'm sorry for my bad English(I also don't know the names in English)



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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 11:19

No I dont believe the Bulgars were a mere annoying nuisance. Personally I think they were a serious, though not fatal, threat which was a thorn in the side of an otherwise successful Empire. But from his actions it appears that Romanus I Lecapenus certainly did not view their encroachments on Byzantium as a terminal threat, he knew well enough real Byzantine power lay in Anatolia. And I was expressing the likely perspective of the Byzantine Emperor, not my own, so please distinguish between the two.

As for you English, please keep posting and interacting with everyone as a foreign language can be very challenging and I am sure with patience you will be using it like a pro . So far you manage to get your point across quite well so keep at it mate.

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  Quote Red_Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 07:33

The Byzantine empire  likes to many histrorians.Its conception of The Holly Empire impress many people.I'm a Bulgar but I also think that it is one of the greatest empires ever exist.Despite of fact that we were fighting with them almost 600 years I don't want to be vanished by the turks.I want to underline that Byzantia is not Greece.They only use greek as official language and apprehend parts of their culture,it is not the same(like USA and England;Russia and Ukrain;even Australia and England).And to come to capture of K(C)onstantinopole.It's a city that in normal situation can't be captured.When it was taken by turks Byzantia begane from Pera(Golden Horn) and ended to Golden gate in fact the empire was only the city.And with the help of the west Europe(Venice,Genua and Rome) the capital was captured



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  Quote The_Last_Byzantine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 18:18
Bulgarians never had the power to capture Constantinople.The city could have been captured only after an year of total siege either on land and water.Bulgarians didn't have navy so alone they could do nothing.But even if they have made an alliance with the arabs the byzantine diplomacy would prevent such siege on th city.
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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 11:18

Bulgarians aren't a serious threat, ha? That's what Nicephorus thought and we all know how that ended. (I crack myself up sometimes.) The Bulgarians had a much stronger land force than the Byzantines, all they needed was the arab fleet. As for diplomacy- Symeon was a much better diplomat than any of his Byzantine opponents. He used his diplomatic skills to braek up the Byzantine-engeenered Magyar-Pecheneg anti-Bulgarian coalition. After all, he was a student of patriarch Fotius himself. About him Fotius once said "I have produced the perfect Emperor, but forgot he isn't Greek." The Greeks themselves called him "semi-Greek". So don't count on diplamacy, he beat you in your own game.

Last Byzantine, do you speak Bulgarian? It would be interesting for me to chit-chat with you on the Non-English board.

Regards.

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  Quote The_Last_Byzantine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 12:05
Yes i speak bulgarian since i was born in Bulgaria
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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 12:24

Just making sure.



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  Quote The_Last_Byzantine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 12:47
If you have Yahoo Messenger or MSN we could discuss this topic.It is more convinient than in the forum.
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 12:49
Originally posted by Red_Lord

The Byzantine empire  likes to many histrorians.Its conception of The Holly Empire impress many people.I'm a Bulgar but I also think that it is one of the greatest empires ever exist.Despite of fact that we were fighting with them almost 600 years I don't want to be vanished by the turks.I want to underline that Byzantia is not Greece.They only use greek as official language and apprehend parts of their culture,it is not the same

Indeed,the Byzantine Empire was multicultural,but during the last centuries,after the loss of Egypt and Palestine,of Italy and North Africa,the Empire became Hellenic.Even the title of the Byzantine Emperor changed from Imperator Romanorum,caesar,augustus to Vasileus(king) with the accesion of pistos en Christw(Faithfull to God).

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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 13:02
Last Byzantine, what's your ICQ number? Chat is the most convinient means of discussing.

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  Quote The_Last_Byzantine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 13:44
Unfortunately The_Last_Byzantine is not introduced to ICQ
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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 13:49
Neither is the Bulgarian, his older brother is the family computer wiz. Oh well, I guess PM will have to do the job.

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