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ihsan
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Topic: Arabians at Constantinople Posted: 09-Oct-2004 at 11:42 |
Ok, of course
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Christscrusader
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Posted: 13-Nov-2004 at 00:35 |
I believe the MAIn reason for the vurtual fall of the Byzantine Greek east is the sack of constantinople by the crusaders. The city was pillaged and it was a pitiful example of Christian vs Christian. I wonder how the West trys to clear that one up with the Eastern Church, no wonder the divisions are so deep.
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Tobodai
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Posted: 13-Nov-2004 at 00:38 |
eh, money and plunder is a sufficent explanation for why anyon does anything.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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JanusRook
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Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam
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Posted: 13-Nov-2004 at 10:14 |
I wonder how the West trys to clear that one up with the Eastern Church
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By acknowledging and apologizing for their mistake, the only thing they can do.
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
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Kubrat
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Posted: 13-Nov-2004 at 20:56 |
Yeah, I agree with Christscrusader.
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Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare
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Christscrusader
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Posted: 15-Nov-2004 at 20:34 |
Noone else gona add to anytin?
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Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
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Yiannis
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Posted: 16-Nov-2004 at 01:24 |
Originally posted by Christscrusader
Noone else gona add to anytin? |
No, you have us covered
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Christscrusader
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Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 19:26 |
Goodie,
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Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
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Ptolemy
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Posted: 20-Nov-2004 at 22:52 |
I believe the MAIn reason for the vurtual fall of the Byzantine Greek east is the sack of constantinople by the crusaders. The city was pillaged and it was a pitiful example of Christian vs Christian. I wonder how the West trys to clear that one up with the Eastern Church, no wonder the divisions are so deep. |
The fall of the thematic system which preceded that event preobably has more to do with the fall of Constantinople (both times). I would like to see what the crusaders could have thrown against Basil II.
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Christscrusader
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Posted: 20-Nov-2004 at 23:15 |
Explain yourself
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Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
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Temujin
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Sirdar Bahadur
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Posted: 21-Nov-2004 at 13:32 |
well, simply said, Byzantium had to recruit a lot of mercenaries to keep itself a major player after the national thematic troops decreased drastically in performance after Basil II.
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Yiannis
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Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 01:26 |
The Thematic scheme collapsed when the small farmers that were the backbone of the army, began to collapse economically. As a result they started selling their land to big landowners (Dynatoi = strong ones) and became serfs to them (some sort of feudalism. There were some attempts by a few emperors to reverse this trend but without success. If you search for "dynatoi" you'll find a lot of information on this interesting matter.
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Kubrat
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Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 17:12 |
Really? That's interesting because much the same thing was
happening in Bulgaria at the same time. That and the division of
the country into 3 kingdoms.
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Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare
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Guests
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Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 21:15 |
The thematic system that was subsumed by the landowners divereted power from the central government. the peasant farmers owed military service not to the state but to the rich landowners. hence the rebellions of bardas sclerus and bardas phocas and then the usurpations of nicephorus phocas and john tzimickes. all these four men were related by marriage.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 05-May-2005 at 23:17 |
Finally someone who agrees that the thematic system was the backbone of Byzantium! Byzantium basically had to find a way of making itself a viable state once it was deprived of its place of universalism in the world. When the Great Migrations died down Byzantium lost its source of military power: the mercenaries. With the loss of Syria and Egypt to the Persians and then the Arabs it needed a way of funding a large army capable of defending a nation which lay inbetween two major invasion routes and which would forever be neighbours with large, powerful and organised nations. The response was the theme, a district within the empire governed by a man with supreme civil and military authority which was responsible for providing a quota of professional troops from a massive class of small-holding peasants who provided their own arms and armor and submitted themselves for training and service. The system worked brilliantly, although Byzantium collected only one tenth of the revenue in taxation that the Abassid Caliphate did in the early 8th century it was still on the whole very successful in defending itself. Byzantium transformed itself from a prostrate, weak entity which was badly depopulated into a superpower once more. From the 9th century onwards there is massive creativity, expansion etc coming from this nation. The thematic system often allowed Byzantium to field large professional armies which were very cost effective. In the 10th century the army was sustainably maintained at 120,000 men distributed through the Empire, while more soldiers could quickly be called up readily armed for emergencies. By contrast the German Emperor at that time could raise only 40,000 men and these refused to serve for sustained campaigns or long periods. When the government allowed legislation to slip and the Dynatoi to become powerful it destroyed the two most important organs of the Byzantine Empire: its source of income and its source of military manpower. The destruction of the small-holding peasant achieved that. And so began the decline that need not have occured.
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Jazz
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Posted: 07-May-2005 at 01:26 |
Originally posted by Constantine XI
..... When the government allowed legislation to
slip and the Dynatoi to become powerful it destroyed the two most
important organs of the Byzantine Empire: its source of income and its
source of military manpower. The destruction of the small-holding
peasant achieved that. And so began the decline that need not have
occured. |
Nice - but looking back, what could have been done to prevent this decline?
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giani_82
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Posted: 07-May-2005 at 08:17 |
Nothing much really, lying on the crossroad of the two migration waves has engaged the empire in constant wars, besides they lost quite many impornant territories to the west as well - Thracia and Macedonia to say at least. This depleted them of access to valuable riches. Their goal to have a north border on the Danube river was never fully accomplished even though they conquered Bulgaria and preserved their rule for some 200 years at one point. The Danube border was once easily defended by numerous fortifications, and just at the V and VI century slavs, bulgars, avars started invasions on a regular basis. Some of them settled down as Byzantine subjects, but an empire with the reaches of Byzantium is hardly ever unnoticable to their neighbours.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 08-May-2005 at 20:21 |
Nice - but looking back, what could have been done to prevent this decline? [/QUOTE]
Well basically Byzantium needed to continue with its anti-aristocratic legislation, if possible. Limiting the amount of land legally held by one household would be a wise move, while imposing heavier and heavier quotas on the troops to be supplied by a given area of land as a household's amount of land increased would be another. Of course this was a hard system to think up, implement and enforce. Even Basil II cannot be said to have been 100% successful seeing how fast the aristocracy re-emerged after his death, and Basil was not one to be half-assed in doing anything. The sad fact of the matter is that Byzantium faced an unusually large number of threats. Reading Gibbon you see alot of reference to immorality being the cause of their decline. I remember when I was 14 and first became interested in Byzantium simply because of the sound of its name, since then I made it my primary area of study and have found it the most fascinating area of all the histories i have delved into. I think it is simply the case that Byzantium was surrounded by a number of distinctly different nations, some militant and semi-barbaric on the one hand (eg the Pechenegs), while others highly developed and organised (like the Arabs and Persians). All nations were too distinct to really find much common cause with Byzantium and so any time Byzantium experienced even a short period of weakness (e.g. 602-610) the damage that waiting enemies could cause could undo decades of hard work. Basically that is why I believe Byzantium collapsed, it was a beleaguered state with a sheer mass of distinct external enemies always ready to pounce. How could Byzantium have prevented the collapse of its small holder farming class in the face of the Dynatoi? Basically only through stringent legislation and a good Emperor. I suppose Basil II did have one big failing, he failed to provide a capable heir to the Macedonian dynasty, and with the throne vacant the Dynatoi came to fill the vacuum and in doing so were all too pleased to further erode the state legislation which protected the small holder peasants.
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Byzantine Emperor
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Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 20:08 |
Originally posted by Constantine XI
How could Byzantium have prevented the collapse of its small holder farming class in the face of the Dynatoi? Basically only through stringent legislation and a good Emperor. I suppose Basil II did have one big failing, he failed to provide a capable heir to the Macedonian dynasty, and with the throne vacant the Dynatoi came to fill the vacuum and in doing so were all too pleased to further erode the state legislation which protected the small holder peasants. |
Good point, if anyone could have stemmed the erosion of the themes and put the Dynatoi in check it early on it would have been Basil II. Didn't he try to pass what he thought was effective legislation in his law against illegal land sales? As you know, the growing class of landed magnates were offering huge sums for the lands of the thematic farmers, who were taking the money and running with it. Basil II tried to reaffirm a law of Romanus I from the year 934, which stipulated that all illegal land sales had to be returned to the thematic farmers without compensation. I think in the end it was too late, the Dynatoi had a firm stranglehold on land ownership and the central government was too weak to reverse the situation or to establish limitations. After Basil II, the emperors themselves started to come from the big land-holding families. He was the last of a dying breed.
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eaglecap
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Posted: 02-Jun-2005 at 00:57 |
Originally posted by JanusRook
other strange part is how Kieven Rus had the choice to convert to either,
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I heard they went with Christianity because of Islam's ban on alcohol. |
That could have been part of it but the story I read was the Rus barbarians were so impressed by the glory of Hagia Sophia that they chose Orthodoxy over Islam, the Roman Catholic faith and, the Jewish religion. remember, they lived in mud huts and the dome structure, of this great church, seemed to reach to the heavens, the paintings of saints, angels and Christ helped I am sure.
I do believe I read this in one of John Julius Norwhich's volumes on the Byzantine Empire.
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