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Paris riots

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Paris riots
    Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 06:52
I don't know if our French members can add some useful info to this matter but I fear that it is becoming something than a punctual conflict: for 6 days many areas of Paris have been scenario of violent clashes between youths and the police. Declarions of right-wing interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy that the rioters are "scum" (or "rabble" depending on the translation) have only fueled the imprecise conflict that started when three people got electrocuted when (apparently) hiding in an electric substation from a police chase.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4395294.stm

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/257461EE-4259-42A7-AB 98-B712ACE87615.htm

Ethnic and economic tensions are behind the explosion of anger. See this background article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4375910.stm

According to Basque newspaper Gara, Socialist opposition has strongly critizied the government and particularly Mr. Sarkozy for falling into the "war dialectics" with his comments and attitude.

Spanish alternative news site La Haine comments that the causes behind are high unemployement rates among the Parisian youth of inmigrant origins and that the violent attitude of Parisian police is not doing but to fuel the conflict.



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 07:14
again a Revolution in Paris?
it is about time, the last one was already 37 years ago
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 07:20
All things considered, its pretty stuoid to hide in an electricity substation, i mean, don't they have TV adds warning kids how dangerous this is in France?
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 07:45
We had a similar situation in sydney, (being australian on much a smaller scale 1 nite), when a aborigine kid impaled himself on a fence while being chased by police (which also denied they were chasing him)
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 07:50
Was it ever verified whether or not they were chasing him? The Aussie police that is.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 07:59
Nup, it was never proven. I dont remember anyone getting into trouble in the end. while the indigenous community in that part of the city  (and others) feel short changed by it all.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 11:14
Update: president Chirac intervenes to calm down the situation.

Originally posted by BBC


"The law must be applied in a spirit of dialogue and respect," Mr Chirac said.

"A lack of dialogue and an escalation of disrespectful behaviour will lead to a dangerous situation," he told a cabinet meeting, according to a spokesman.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399510.stm


At the following link, you can see some pictures of the clashes, in sort of a timeline of the events: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4399456.stm

And this is a background article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399748.stm






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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 00:29
Originally posted by Leonidas

We had a similar situation in sydney, (being australian on much a smaller scale 1 nite), when a aborigine kid impaled himself on a fence while being chased by police (which also denied they were chasing him)


He actually managed to impale himself on a SAFETY FENCE, how I don't know. In any case it opened up a flood of violence against police, vandalism and consequent sympathy for the aboriginal community from some groups. So are the police responsible for his death?

Well I pose this: if the police were not chasing him, obviously they were not. If the police were chasing him, why was he running (or riding his bike as the case actually was)? It isn't like they actually pushed him onto a fence (a safety fence at that). So if one rally car driver was killed in the lead after he crashed because the other rally car drivers were "chasing" him, does that mean the other rally car drivers should be charged with his murder?

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 03:17
Damn, having a discussion with some boneheads on another forum, people can't seem to understand that maybe people might be angry over the fact taht they have higher unemployment rates, generaly have a harder time finding jobs and have zero represntation in parliamanet (in sharp contrast to some other European countries that have smaller migrant populations).

No, its, "well they shouldn't riot" or "maybe if they got good educations" or even "why should they be allowed in parliament". Nananana i can't hear you.

Theres a reason France has more severe problems with immigrants than other European countries, and thats because they are relativly worse off there in many areas. But i guess we should ignore that.

We need an Emporer Nero smilie.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 23:41
Update: riots continue after a week. The department of Seine-St. Denis and (in more sporadic manner) other suburban districts of Paris keep suffering riots with buildings and vehicles set ablaze and even shotings against the police. In thursday there were some riots also in the city of Dijon (Burgundy).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4405620.stm
58238A873.htm">http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/10EF12 51-D5F3-4C99-B62E-E58238A873.htm

According to basque newspaper GARA, the police station of Antony (Hauts-de-Seine) was attacked yesterday with molotov cocktails (hand-made incendiary bombs). In Aulnay, three journalist of France 2 TV channel were forced to get out their vehicle that was then set ablaze. Shots have been fired against the police in some places without causing any injuried so far.

Fascist leader Le Pen accuses the government of doing nothing "while France is being attacked by foreign hordes" (sic). Foreign hordes that include kids as young as 10, born all in Ille-de-France. The rebel youngsters seem to be ready to continue with the fight, an informal speaker declared that "this is going to continue until Sarkozy (Minister of the Interior) renounces".

The terms "war" and "urban guerrilla" have now become widespread in European media when informing of this conflict. Even Beijing News opens with the Parisian revolt and alerts against inmigration.

Tariq Ramadan, member of a special comitee of the British Government to deal with the background of the London attacks denounces that "we send police and not social services. We are confronting ghettos". He said to Sarkozy that "you can't insult people. They are French citizens. We must talk with them. They want to be part of the solution, not to be percieved just as the problem".

On the ground mediators insist that police must retire to avoid provocations. How will this end?

Some images (from BBC):



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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 06:59
Its pretty funny, following the response to this on some other forums. People who are otherwise conservative (right across the spectrum), instead of arguing for economic reform in France to make the economy more flexible, and thus lower unemployment and improve the lot of the most deprived by magical supplyside economics, call for deportation of French citizens (to where? France?) and the need to 'show those scum, bla bla'.
I guess inside most neo-liberals theres a closet protectionist waiting to come out.
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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 12:32
How about jail or North Africa for the ones from there.

How would you feel if it was your company or truck they were destroying, would you be asking for more tolerance?

Have they not made their point yet, what is the solution now, do nothing, tough police or an intallation of Sharia?
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 12:56
Originally posted by Cywr

Its pretty funny, following the response to this on some other forums. People who are otherwise conservative (right across the spectrum), instead of arguing for economic reform in France to make the economy more flexible, and thus lower unemployment and improve the lot of the most deprived by magical supplyside economics, call for deportation of French citizens (to where? France?) and the need to 'show those scum, bla bla'.
I guess inside most neo-liberals theres a closet protectionist waiting to come out.


People are people.  They often favor "doing the right thing" until that starts to affect their interests negatively.
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 13:03
Maybe Bush can lend some cells in Guantanamo Bay for the rioters. That will teach them...
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 13:07
Seriously, I feel deeply for the people living in the riot zones. Riots like this normally hurt the most the same communities where they happen.

At the end of the day it is not rioters hurting the government, but it is rioters hurting their own people.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 13:25
Yes, most of the cars burned obviously belong to locals, I guess that some of the buildings/stores are too.

Anyhow, the deportation attitude makes no sense: these people are all French (and EU citizens) like any other. Unless people like Cattus want to repeat the "feats" of Hitler and co., there's no legal alternative. Of course you can put some of the rioters in jail but that should be according to legal procedures.

When these kind of riots happened in the 90s, 80s or the 60s the ethnical issue wasn't present (though in the 90s it played a role), and nobody was so nazi as to call for the deportation of the French youth involved. These people speak French with Parisian accent, they have studied in French public schools and they have French and European passports.

Here there are some  BBC articles on how France, despite the legal inexistence of racism, has still a deep racist attitude that hinders the progress (and integration) of French of African ascendance:
And HERE you can find an update: politicians (including Sarkozy) think that the current conflict will need some time to be solved.

And an impressive image of a carpet store burning:


Btw, the riots are still extending to other cities: new inccidents have been reported in Dijon, Marseilles and Rouen.


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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 14:31
That is really screwed up and unacceptable, there are other means to file a grievance than running around and ransacking the place like it's Sierra Leone.  And it was the kids' fault, stupid little idiots running into a substation. Those too little so and sos should receive a Darwin award.
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  Quote PrznKonectoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 23:27

I think the French govt and The rioters are at fault. I mean when ur penned up in a ghetto u naturally are gonna explode at some point. But really these rioters are hurting their own neighborhoods and images more than anything else.

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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 00:29
Maju, I said "if from there",i.e.,North Africans. Even an American minute man would not advocated kicking out foreign nationals. Expelling a Moroccan or Algerian, throwing someone that destroys private property or lighting someone on fire in jail does not make me a Hitler.

There comes a time when enough is enough and these "youths", which look like grown men to me.. should grow up.
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  Quote Loknar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 01:54

If this was happening in America the riot would have been over by day 2.

What are Police doing? Are they even fireing bullets? Any tear gas? random beatings?

 

IN CHicago back during the Vietnam war, peple were rioting when the democratic national convention came to town. The mayor called in the national guard and said "if they're looting, shoot to kill."

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