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Leonidas
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Topic: Paris riots Posted: 27-Nov-2005 at 06:34 |
More analysis on the rioters. THis is quite interesting take on its all.
The "Non-Political" Nature of the November Riots
"What is striking about today's French riots are their "non-political"
nature. That does not mean, of course, that politics do not play a
role. Instead, it means that those gangs performing the violent actions
do not propose anything politically subversive, nor really anything
political at all. In addition, it means that the rioters will get
little or no support from other French people.
In fact, the
rioters do not fight for civil or human rights. They know that the
French government has already given them such rights. However, they
perceive such rights as purely formal and institutional, but not
actual. According to some interviewed youths, the very fact to be born
in a suburban area and to keep a non-European cultural identity (Islam
and Arab names) creates a specific representation of their relationship
with France.
The rioters argue that they feel scorned upon, and
therefore react with anger and rage. They are citizens of France
without being part of the French national identity. On the basis of the
available information, it is possible to exclude Islamism from the
causes of the rioting. It is not religious extremism, but ethnic
friction which has the great effect of exacerbating social differences.
Individually, or even taken as a group, the rioters seem to be
revolting against their own condition and context. They destroy their
own quarters, their neighbor's vehicle or small enterprise. Their
actions look as a desperate attempt to signal their will to access the
"wealthy society." Such a society may be just five underground train
stops away. Still, they almost never go there. They act in their own
environment, as if they were unable to move -- limiting their free
movement inside their own country."
Unfortunalty the article predicts a right wing response
The Bottom Line
"The French government decided to adopt a
hard line against rioters, and the last surveys indicate that three out
of four French citizens support the introduction of curfews in the
affected suburbs. The coming days will probably be decisive to assess
the efficiency of such measures. Should the move fail, the revolt could
spread further and even pave the way for foreign activists with plans
of terrorism (as French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy suggests).
As
the 2007 general election approaches, look for immigration and
integration issues to take central stage permanently in the French
political debate. Depending on the chosen national policies in these
fields, expect France to try to influence its European partners to
introduce new European legislation on immigration issues, and, if such
an attempt fails, to enhance its own national program even in
opposition of Brussels.
Since the French right-wing is split
among many factions, be prepared for a harsh battle inside the French
Right. French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin is probably the one
who risks the most in the present phase for the simple reason of being
the prime minister during this time. If the security issue does not get
solved rapidly, his entire political agenda will be severely hampered
and his ambitious industrial policy will be difficult to maintain.
Moreover,
given the loss of momentum of Jean-Marie Le Pen's rightist National
Front, an interesting competition will take place between the
neo-liberal Nicolas Sarkozy and the Catholic sovereignist leader
Philippe de Villiers."
the whole article
Edited by Leonidas
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Maju
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Posted: 24-Nov-2005 at 06:26 |
New update: though the riots have subsided for the most part, anonymous
leaders of the revolt warn of a civil war if Sarkozy is elected
president.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4463862.stm
In declarations to the BBC a group of anonym youths from Clichy-sous-Bois and other Parisian banlieues, who accept leadership on the riots, say the following:
(...)
"We want jobs like everyone," says Mohamed. "We want to be respected and we want to get out of the estates."
As he says this, he breaks down in laughter. I ask why.
"Because we know it's not possible," he says.
Some of the youths say they have secondary school qualifications, but say they cannot get jobs because of racism.
"It's because we're Arab or black," says Rida. "Go to a
business and try finding a black guy to talk to. There aren't any.
They're all white there."
He brings out a tattered photograph. It shows him holding a gun - not a revolver but a 12-bore shotgun.
"We're armed," says Mohamed. "We're well armed and in
2007, if Sarkozy becomes president, we'll have a real war. That's why
they didn't want to attack Iraq, because they know if they attack Iraq,
there'll be big trouble in France."
(...)
"We're only French on paper," says Mohamed. "I was at
school with a friend. I passed my exams and he didn't. We both applied
for the same job as a salesman, but they took him because he's white."
And these young men are convinced that the only time
anyone listens to their grievances is when there are cars burning in
the streets.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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ScythianEmpire
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Posted: 21-Nov-2005 at 14:29 |
yeah, you're right on that Maju. Integration works both ways. Also depends how you define integration.
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Kapikulu
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Posted: 20-Nov-2005 at 16:58 |
Well, I believe these riots were return of smart-alecky and so-called French democracy and equality, which is present theorically but not practically.
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
A Strange Orhan Veli
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Maju
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Posted: 18-Nov-2005 at 06:33 |
Wikipedia has this nice animation on the spread of the riots. I think it's a good update:
And also this graphic on their intensity:
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Cywr
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Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 12:34 |
Both the disinterest in assimilation, and the lack of encouragement for
same have inevitably led to segregation, separatist identity and ill
feeling on both sides. |
You don't think unemployment and discrimination has anything to do with it?
The French model would be close to perfect if there was no such thing as a French Xenophobe, sadly thats not the case.
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Arrrgh!!"
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Beylerbeyi
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Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 12:14 |
The Politically Correct mantra of "diversity" has been enunciated again and again. |
This comment alone shows you don't know anything about France. You are just another Yankee who thinks everywhere is like America. And you are trying to score some points for your side in America, by coming up with this neuron-free analysis of France.
Here's the news for you, the French have a different social integration model than the Anglo-Saxon one. They don't talk about 'diversity', but about French values, which are based on enlightenment, and say that everyone who has these values is French like any other. So on paper Ali is as French as Alain, but in reality, he gets discriminated against.
So, no 'diversity mantra' for France. UK, on the other hand, talks about diversity, and they have much better situation, ethnic relations wise.
Edited by Beylerbeyi
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 11:17 |
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by pikeshot1600
Oh, which trash websites would you recommend?
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I've been reading the BBC mostly, the oficial media of the best US ally.
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Maju
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Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 10:51 |
Originally posted by pikeshot1600
Oh, which trash websites would you recommend? |
I've been reading the BBC mostly, the oficial media of the best US ally.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 08:06 |
Originally posted by Maju
Again saying nonsense, Pike?
Nothing to do with Islamism (as has been discussed before), not just anything about failure of the people to integrate: they are not accepted by most ethnic French, as some of the background articles posted in this topic show clearly. In fact it is over all a revolt against racism and impossibility of integration.
Try reading something instead of just assuming that everything that happens in the world is due to to some convenient Islamo-Masonic conspiracy or something.
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Hey, my friend, you think everything that happens in the world is a U.S. conspiracy, so I am entitled to my own.
Oh, which trash websites would you recommend?
Edited by pikeshot1600
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Leonidas
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Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 03:24 |
pikeshot1600 wrote:
"The strength of the Right is understandable due to the failures of the policies of the Left."
Failure of the left is much to do with the people as it does with the
policies, so being Right doesnt mean that it naturally will succeed
either. Im a proud swinging voter, I dont believe in dogmatic
adhearance to any political theory. Sometimes you need a bit of left
approach for some situations and a bit of the old right for others. At
this moment, some real progressive
thinking that has so far been lacking (from both sides from the looks
of it) is what is really needed. This is situation that both sides
could of fixed long ago. But definatly not this lock the doors where
being overtaken by "scum" approach from the Right wingers.
BTW in Aus it was our version of the "left" that liberalised and opened up the economy so go figure on correct labelling.
"For many decades now, the immigration of those who have not
assimilated, or who have not wanted to assimilate, into Franco-European
culture has been setting the stage for what has recently transpired"
Assimilation goes both ways, accepting the immigrants for what they are
helps them accept what is around them. Rascism either directly felt or implied is just as big a factor. This is a
society either not able or atleast ready to accomidate more than one
type of culture, and this is just as much their fault than the people
they shut out.
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Maju
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Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 02:24 |
Again saying nonsense, Pike?
Nothing to do with Islamism (as has been discussed before), not just
anything about failure of the people to integrate: they are not
accepted by most ethnic French, as some of the background articles
posted in this topic show clearly. In fact it is over all a revolt
against racism and impossibility of integration.
Try reading something instead of just assuming that everything that
happens in the world is due to to some convenient Islamo-Masonic
conspiracy or something.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 19:49 |
Originally posted by Leonidas
well its the case of the lesser of the two evils i guess. I just hope atleast his rhetoric is partly to blame for this shift and there is a line that french arent comfortible with. The strength of the right is worrisome, but these things come in cycles, when the right dont delever or stop delivering then they get chucked out and the otherside get a turn agian. |
The strength of the Right is understandable due to the failures of the policies of the Left.
For many decades now, the immigration of those who have not assimilated, or who have not wanted to assimilate, into Franco-European culture has been setting the stage for what has recently transpired. The Politically Correct mantra of "diversity" has been enunciated again and again. Both the disinterest in assimilation, and the lack of encouragement for same have inevitably led to segregation, separatist identity and ill feeling on both sides.
What did the isolated French elites think was going to happen? That their manifestos would make it all better? France, great as she has been in her past, has been in denial. Not admitting that large scale immigration from the Mahgreb could fatefully challenge France and French culture has been most ill-advised. Now that there has been a substantial and widespread consequence to these immigration policies, those elites, with their Sorbonne educations and their $2,000 suits, need to think harder and to earn their salaries. What is to happen next?
Does France think opposition to and disapproval of the war in Iraq holds her harmless from radical Islamist actions? I don't think she is.
Edited by pikeshot1600
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Exarchus
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Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 18:27 |
Originally posted by ok ge
I guess that is a recognition of the government
fault and the unhealthy growth of suburbs due to their policies. |
About the unemployment, I was talking of France as a whole.
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Vae victis!
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ok ge
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Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 16:55 |
Originally posted by Exarchus
They are the ones that made unemployment that high, growth that low and the weak economic context that made those surburbs devellop this way.
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I guess that is a recognition of the government fault and the unhealthy growth of suburbs due to their policies.
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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
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Exarchus
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Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 15:04 |
The
socialists are only pathetic clowns. I used to vote for them and
it was a terrible mistake. They were the ones who stayed the most in
power those last decades. They are the ones that made unemployment that
high, growth that low and the weak economic context that made those
surburbs devellop this way.
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Vae victis!
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Leonidas
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Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 06:18 |
well its the case of the lesser of the two evils i guess. I just hope
atleast his rhetoric is partly to blame for this shift and there is a
line that french arent comfortible with. The strength of the right is
worrisome, but these things come in cycles, when the right dont delever
or stop delivering then they get chucked out and the
otherside get a turn agian.
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Maju
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Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 02:47 |
Originally posted by Leonidas
AS the smoke clears those that talked along the lines of Mr "scum"
Sarkozy will see their knee jerk comments and overall attitudes are
just narrow calls that ignore the bigger issues.
Update: Opinion polls are starting to favour the softer line (of the two) Villepin (52% vs 44%) source
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Obviously the nice cop is always the favorite of the two... but they work in a team.
Anyhow, while I don't have right now any source, I recall yesterday
reading that the opinion polls also showed a major increase of Le Pen
and the sinking of Socialists, who inmersed in their own inner disputes
have been as invisible as Chirac or more.
While obviously this is a major challenge for France and all Europe and
I hope we have heard the alarm and will react constructively, the fact
is that for many people of native background, whose xenophobic
tendencies were already strong, this conflict seems only to mean an
obscure danger that they may want to deal with in a fascist way.
Europe (and France specially) has already strong neo-fascist xenophobic
political currents and this may even reinforce them, I fear. Meanwhile
the class war component (dominant, no doubt) may remain hidden behind
the curtain of ethnic conflict.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Leonidas
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Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 02:21 |
AS the smoke clears those that talked along the lines of Mr "scum"
Sarkozy will see their knee jerk comments and overall attitudes are
just narrow calls that ignore the bigger issues.
Update: Opinion polls are starting to favour the softer line (of the two) Villepin (52% vs 44%) source
Riots are a class act - and often they're the only alternative
"By the end of last week
it looked as though the fortnight of struggle between minority French
youth and the police might actually have yielded some progress.
Condemning the rioters is easy. They shot at the police, killed an
innocent man, trashed businesses, rammed a car into a retirement home,
and torched countless cars (given that 400 cars are burned on an
average New Year's Eve in France, this was not quite as remarkable as
some made out).
But shield your ears
from the awful roaring waters for a moment and take a look at the
ocean. Those who wondered what French youth had to gain by taking to
the streets should ask what they had to lose. Unemployed, socially
excluded, harassed by the police and condemned to poor housing, they
live on estates that are essentially open prisons. Statistically
invisible (it is against the law and republican principle to collect
data based on race or ethnicity) and politically unrepresented
(mainland France does not have a single non-white MP), their aim has
been simply to get their plight acknowledged. And they succeeded."
Editorials in france (also sourced from the guardian) have said:
Le Figaro:"France is paying for its arrogance. In the eyes of the world, our famous model of social integration is going down the drain.."
L'Humanite:"Nicolas Sarkozy's arrogance evidently has no limits.....After having deliberately lit the fuse, he happily surveys the damage, and wants time to think about it.
Le Monde: "A country that regards
itself as the birthplace of human rights and a model of social welfare
has shown itself, in everyone's eyes, to be incapable of giving its
young people the opportunities they deserve.."
Edited by Leonidas
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Maju
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Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 00:11 |
Some other comments/updates from local Basque press ( http://gara.euskalherria.com/idatzia/20051114/art138631.php):
The EU tries to avoid the debate on the excluded ones despite the French explossion.
Fights increase in in Lyon, while Belgian police arrests half a hundred youngsters in Brussels.
The European Union looks cautiously
to the uprising that started already more than two weeks but doesn't
want to treat in depth a phenomenon that is common to many member
states: the increasing social and economic exclusion and
marginalization of wide layers of society. The uprising meanwhile has
expanded from Paris, taken by the police, to neighbour states,
particularly Belgium, with massive police interventions.
So far the header, now let's see some most interesting remarks:
...
Greek diary "Ta Nea" confirmed this weekend that "France is the capital of European failure in inmigration matters".
...
Jos Saramago, Nobel Prize of
Literature, advses on the urgency of dealing with the situation of the
excluded of Europe before uprisings of this sort extend to other
countries of the Union.
The Prime Minister of the Republic of
Ireland, Bertie Ahern, made an appeal to watch to prevent the creation
of inmigrant ghettoes that can exlode as in the French case.
...
Confronted to the image of France as
"the country of art, fashion, culture and gastronomy", Japanese [media]
can't hide their surprise. [Russian] sociologst Lev Godukov points out
that "France is for Russians an ideal country, kind of a utopy of
civilized country (...) We are in a state of shock". The press of the
USA attacks without compassion "a country willing to give lessons to
everyone".
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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