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Egypt Origins

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Egypt Origins
    Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 22:46

[QUOTE=Catt][quote]

Here is were i have to ask the silly question, just how black do you think the ancient Egyptians were?
Dark like the Egyptians today, or dark as Denzel Washington is?

Most likely here you are refering to Herodotus who said that Egyptians he encountered were dark skinned(melanchroes). He also claimed that Colchians from the east coast of the Black Sea that he encountered to be melanchroes and that they were the same as Egyptians.

QUOTE]

Well a question like that is more of a statement than you realize.  Do we speak about Spanierds, Brittish or Norweigions in those terms?  Do we ask how white were they?  Do we consider one more white than the next because they may have darker skin or eyes?  Not usually.

What I said was that if we saw them today (which is really the time when these terms could apply) we would refer to them as black people.  It seems that many people are of the of the opinion that black people come in one uniform discription and that the term black person only applies to Nubian and/or Sub-Saharan Africans with regards to history.  When it comes to the world we live in, however, there is a much broader population that we call black.

In truth, Africa as a continent has more genetic variation than any place else on the globe.  There is a wide variety of facial features and other physical characteristics that can be observed among different black populations.

Ask yourself this; Would you call Denzel Washington a black man?  What about Will Smith?  What about Tiger Woods?

By the way I know that foreigners had ruled before 670B.C. that's what I meant by intermitent periods.

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 22:57
Tiger woods looks Filipino to me, but then he is half Asian so...
And here in lies the problem, you are assuming everyone has the same American centric 'Black' gaze.
Plus, if people today saw many ancient Egyptians, they'd probably mistakenly label some of them as 'Arab', the Coptics, for example, who are descendant from the people of Lower Egypt and did not intermarry much with muslims but kept to themselves, and do not look like your stereotypical 'black' man.
Fact is Egypt occupies an area that is where meditereanian and sub-sahara meet. you can't label them as just 'black' in a simplistic sense, and pretty everyone much agrees that they are not 'white' in the simplistic European looking sense.

Edited by Cywr
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 22:59
May I offer brown?
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 23:05
Does the US even have a brown label?
In the UK Brown is used for North Africans, Middle easterners and Indians (although some people use it exclusivly for Indians), so it does work here.
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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 23:11
Tiger is half Thai i believe.
Browns in the US refer, as they refer to themselves..
Mexicans or Latinos.

Most in the US who are so radical about this are of Nigerian decent and have almost no relation to ancient
Egypt.
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 23:14
1/4 Thai, 1/4 Filipino, 1/4 euro-yank, 1/4 afro-yank. At least IIRC.
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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 23:40
ahh, i see.

Sandman, perhaps we dont disagree as much about this as i thought,Africa does have alot of variety but i try to stay clear of stolen legacy theories.
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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 00:48

You maybe looking for "Olive skin", but the real differentiating points between racial categories are the facial features not the skin color. Sandman should know this one. He is a Anthropology Grad Student. Although we still don't know which school he has gone to  

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 12:32

Originally posted by Catt

Tiger is half Thai i believe.
Browns in the US refer, as they refer to themselves..
Mexicans or Latinos.

Most in the US who are so radical about this are of Nigerian decent and have almost no relation to ancient
Egypt.

The reason that I brought up those three people is to show a strange trend.  Denzel is someone who we all consider a black man.  Will Smith has a lighter skin tone but we still consider him black.  Tiger Woods is of known mixed racial decent and yet when he first came on to the scene everyone could not stop talking about how great it was that a black golfer had finally broken through to stardom.  Yet if these were people of great historical significance, we might not call any of them black!

We use black to describe a broad range of people today just like we use white to describe a broad range of people (and brown in some places).  As far as official races, there are none.  On a scientific level, there are no different races of human beings as some 90% of possible genetic variation takes place on an individual level.  That being said, the concept of race is a social concept, not a scientific or factual one.

As for the comment that the African Americans who argue the issue are of Nigerian decent, I would venture to say that there is absolutely no way of knowing that.  If their ancestors were victims of the slave trade, then there is no reliable way to know exactly where they came from as people were displaced from many parts of Sub-Saharan Africa and cut off from their pasts and families.  There is also the possibility that they are decended from black immigrants of the past 50 years or so.  Don't be so quick to put people in a box.

By the way its NYU

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 13:09
The reason that I brought up those three people is to show a strange trend.  Denzel is someone who we all consider a black man.  Will Smith has a lighter skin tone but we still consider him black.  Tiger Woods is of known mixed racial decent and yet when he first came on to the scene everyone could not stop talking about how great it was that a black golfer had finally broken through to stardom.  Yet if these were people of great historical significance, we might not call any of them black!


I really don't see people argueing that D. Washington or Will Smith aren't black, they are too iconic and their imagry is allover the place.

As for Tiger Woods, this is where things get intresting, you fluant him as a 'black golfer', as if the whole world agrees. Do you realise that when many Asians look at him they see an Asian golfer (not unreasonable considering he is half Asian)? Why has he suddenly become a 'black' golfer? Because you are incapable of looking beyond your particular way of viewing the world, and that, because he is dark, be must therefore simply be 'black'?
He looks 'Asian' as well, so why can't he be an Asian golfer?
Is it forbidden to mention his white ancestry? Can he be a white golfer too, i mean he is 1/4 white as well as 1/4 black?

Which brings us back to the Egypt fuss, a perfect example in fact.
Forget Denzel Washington, he perfectly fits the concept of how a 'black man' looks (indeed, he is idiolised as an exceptionaly attractive model of one, and rightly so too), as defined by American popular culture, there is no doubt there.
But with Tiger Woods on the other hand, everyone sees what they want to see, because he does not belong in any single simple colour bucket, and niether does Egypt.

That being said, the concept of race is a social concept, not a scientific or factual one.


Many of us agree with you here, but despite that, you seem to be insisting that your socialy defined view of who should or should not be considered black is the most relevant one somehow.


Edited by Cywr
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 17:19
Don't be offended, that's certainly not what I'm trying to do.  Certainly Tiger could be seen as Asian.  As I wrote, he is of known mixed decent.  I was commenting on the way that the American public christened him as the breakthrough black golfer.  The way that we loosely throw around terms like "black" and "white" when we talk about people in the world today but we get really particular when talking about historical figures.  I often get the sense that there is a concious or sub-concious effort to avoid calling significant historical figures "black."
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 22:56

Accoprding tot the Oxford guide of Ancient Egypt acheology has discovered the ethnic backgrounds of the ancient Egyptians to be quite unique, probably stemming from a blend of mediteranina, saharan, and sub saharan ancestry, that gradually over time became mroe and mroe meddieteranian with the later Libyan and Greek migrations then even later the 8th century Arab migrations.

So truly a melting pot, belonging to no one but hte Egyptians themselves really.

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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2004 at 03:48
oh, NYU. Im jealous,i love Manhattan.

You're correct, regardless that many slaves were bought in Nigeria, it probably would have been best for me to simply say west Africa. I think the point is made though. Despite being on the same continent,the connection isnt there.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2005 at 17:51
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

 from right to left: A syrian, a nubian, a lybian and an Egyptian.

actually the first guy s Lybian and the third is syrian. you can easily tell the Lybians by those feathers or whatever on their heads...



LOL! That's what I thought, based not on the feathers but on the tatoos.

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2005 at 21:32

how old is this drawing?

 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2005 at 22:32
Originally posted by azimuth

how old is this drawing?

 


No idea... but it must be at least 2000 years old (but not onder than 5500 years). Possibly 3000 y.o. is a reasonable hint.


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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 02:50

According to this site:

http://www.wcg.org/wn/98may/black.html

it is from the tomb of Seti I (r. 1291-1278 BC), or thereabouts.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2005 at 03:41
3200-3300 years old! What did I say? 

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2005 at 04:56
You said 3000 y.o.  You were 200-300 years too soon!!!
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2005 at 06:08
Originally posted by Sharrukin

You said 3000 y.o.  You were 200-300 years too soon!!!


It wasn't bad for a baseless guess. Was it?

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