QuoteReplyTopic: Historic Greek Populations In Anatolia Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 23:15
Though I am quite fond of Byzantine history, the Turkic invasions can
be a little cloudy sometimes. Were there actual migrations of Turkic
populations, or just conquering armies intermingling with the already
present population? If this has been answered before in another thread,
I'm sorry.
There were shifts of Turkish populations, but not as big as to completely alter the demographic structure of the regions. The intermingling of the invading armies with the locals and cultural and religious conversion over time, did the rest of the job.
Belisarius,
The genetics of the anadolian population has been discussed, Arfunda and i posted links and extracts/studies. here
The overall feeling is that it was more military conquest than immigrantion/ population replacement.
The range in the latest study (2003) concluded a C/Asian genetic range
of 4.5% to 8.5% a little low than i expected, but maju is on the money
the link to the studyitself
Most common studies anyhow focus in the Y-chromosome, which, at least
on the case of military invasions, should be higher than maternal
lineage (MtDNA). So, if we have about 5% of paternal genuine Turkic
lineages, we can expect that the overall apportation is even smaller,
as they would likely mate with local women as they advanced, specially
meaningful if we consider the practices of poligamy, concubinate and
slavery that such a warrior elite would practice.
Also, we can't forget that the original homeland of IEs, who invaded
Anatolia and other regions earlier could well be Central Asia as well,
so the datat for IEs and Turkics could be supersed and imposible to
diferentiate (as Viking and Anglo-Saxon blood in Britain is also
impossible to pick apart).
I do think so. But this is not privative of Turkey. It can apply to
most of the world, where population hasn't changed significatively
since Paleolithic times, or at least since Neolithic. Some modern
colonies like the USA, Australia and Argentina are the major exceptions
to this rule.
Belisarius, The genetics of the anadolian population has been discussed, Arfunda and i posted links and extracts/studies. here
The overall feeling is that it was more military conquest than immigrantion/ population replacement.
The range in the latest study (2003) concluded a C/Asian genetic range of 4.5% to 8.5% a little low than i expected, but maju is on the money the link to the studyitself
Thank you. I'll get right on it.
However, could one of you fine people approximate on the number of Turkic people actually entered Anatolia? Or is this impossible to know? At the end of Basil II's reign, the Anatolian part of the Byzantine Empire was populated by around 8-10 million people.
Turks are not Turks because of their genes, but because of their culture, language, and history (as the descendants of the Ottoman Muslim 'millet'). Moreover, what made Ottomans so powerful was their open and composite society. Ottomans were cosmopolitan- they incorporated other cultures, religions, civilisations, ethnicities, languages, etc. to their own. Ottomans (Turks) were not great because they were pure in any way, on the contrary, they were great precisely because they were very mixed.
Anyway, I've seen papers with maternal m-DNA which give similar results to Y chromosome studies. I think (at least the later stages of) Oguz migration into Anatolia included women as well. You should remember that they were nomads, their population moves together with the armies. Besides historical documents and archeological data indicate that certain types of sheep were introduced to Anatolia with the Turks, because they brought their herds with them. Which in turn means, not only the armies came.
On the other hand, I don't think their numbers were large enough to overwhelm the local population. Sedentary peoples are usually more populous than nomads, and Anatolia had been settled for ages. If I'd make an educated guess, I'd go for about 5-10% as well.
Moreover, what made Ottomans so powerful was their open and composite society. Ottomans were cosmopolitan- they incorporated other cultures, religions, civilisations, ethnicities, languages, etc. to their own.
If they were so great at doing this than why was there such widespread revolution on various parts of the empire? Let us think of your statement. The Ottoman Empire crumbled because of its lack of bringing together different ethnicities and peoples, just because some converted to Islam does not mean that they incorperated these different cultures, it means that once they converted they were no longer welcome along there usually Christian ethnicities and lived and joined in the life of there Turkish "brothers". Not to transform this whole topic, but we must also not forget during the breakup of the Ottoman Empire to the Republic of Turkey, it had to "get rid" of many different ethnicities so it could complete its transformation of a whole, pure turkish state of Turkey.
If they were so great at doing this than why was there such widespread revolution on various parts of the empire? Let us think of your statement. The Ottoman Empire crumbled because of its lack of bringing together different ethnicities and peoples, just because some converted to Islam does not mean that they incorperated these different cultures, it means that once they converted they were no longer welcome along there usually Christian ethnicities and lived and joined in the life of there Turkish "brothers". Not to transform this whole topic, but we must also not forget during the breakup of the Ottoman Empire to the Republic of Turkey, it had to "get rid" of many different ethnicities so it could complete its transformation of a whole, pure turkish state of Turkey.
I am not sure what you mean at points, due to your spelling.
Anyway, nobody said that Ottomans successfully brought together different cultures, and they lived happily ever after... I said that their own culture was cosmopolitan, i.e. had elements from all over the place. it is perfectly possible to have elements from the culture and genetics of a people and treat them like scum at the same time. Like the Japanese did in China, for instance. I think no serious person thinks that the Ottomans have a pure Turkish culture and Central Asian genetics.
The collapse of the Ottoman Empire, on the other hand, was mostly due to increasing Western power, not to a lack of cosmopolitanism in Turkish culture. Nationalism was a Western idea, Western economy was dominant, and they won wars against the Ottomans on the battlefield. So they replaced the Ottomans in some of the territory (but not all). You are right that Ottomans (and the Republic) also adopted Western (modern) ideas such as nationalism, and not as cosmopolitan today. But this happened in the 20th century. For 600 years, the Ottomans (and for 1000 years, the Turks), were cosmopolitan. Since 100 years the Turks are ethno-nationalistic. Thus, the ethno-centric, nationalist, isolationist stand is a new development in Turkish culture, and it came from the West.
Belisarius wrote: "However, could one of you fine people approximate on the number of
Turkic people actually entered Anatolia? Or is this impossible to know?
At the end of Basil II's reign, the Anatolian part of the Byzantine
Empire was populated by around 8-10 million people."
That would be hard, but its a good question. The problem is that
probably, and for a very long time, a small continual migration of
turkish speakers probably lasted after the conquering, which would make
any estimates hard, to say the least. AS Beylerbeyi thinks
that more family type migrations came later, would probably be correct.
Once after Anadolia was secure and completely conquered would you think
of moving the rest of the tribes and family groups over.
Whatever the exact process, the first Ottoman rulers don't seem
particularly Mongoloid, but rather Caucasian. The admixture with locals
would have been taken place before the foundation of the Ottoman
Sultanate, maybe even during the migrations and the Seljuk period:
The first two Ottoman Sultans: Osman I and Orhan I (13th and 14th centuries), who look very much as modern Turks do.
i think the mothers of the padishahs where allways non-Turkic women, i know that from Ihsan (not perfectly, he explained that good tough i cant remember all what he said), the mother of Fatih sultan mehmed whas an Serbian.
Vast majority of the Anatolian gene-pool is local. Genetically speaking, Turks have (mostly) descended from the ancient peoples of the Anatolian peninsula, and any other ethnicity from Celts to Mongols, who passed through that land and contributed to the local gene-pool. Turks, or more correctly, Turcomans, have arrived in Anatolia in large numbers from Central Asia, too, but nevertheless, since most of them were nomads, they were not numerous enough to outnumber the sedentary peoples of that land.
I found a few scientific papers on the internet about the influence of Central Asian genetics on the gene-pool of Anatolia. The papers are serious scientific efforts from respectable sources, most of them involving Turkish researchers.
The Turkish and Azeri populations are atypical among Altaic speakers (Table 1) in having low frequencies of M130, M48, M45,and M17 haplotypes. Rather, these two Turkic-speaking groups seemto be closer to populations from the Middle East and Caucasus,characterized by high frequencies of M96- and/or M89-related haplotypes.This finding is consistent with a model in which the Turkic languages,originating in the Altai-Sayan region of Central Asia and northwesternMongolia (31), were imposed on the Caucasian and Anatolian peopleswith relatively little genetic admixture (another possible exampleof elite dominance-driven linguisticreplacement.)
Meaning: Turks and Azeris are closer to the populations from the Middle East and Caucasus rather than to those of Central Asia.
Populations speaking very different languages, i.e. Indo-European (the Talysh) and Altaic (the Turkish and the Azeri), show little differences in the incidence of this network. One can hypothesize that the presence of this network in this area is the result of migrations of Altaic-speakers into Turkey in the eleventh century AD and subsequent admixture into the Talysh. This hypothesis is, however, ruled out by the high (20-30 per cent) frequency of this network in Continental Greece and Crete. This would imply a massive contribution of recent Turkish genes to the gene pools of these populations, an unlikely occurrence. Thus it is reasonable to conclude that network 1.2 chromosomes were peculiar to Indo-European-speaking populations which settled in and in the surroundings of the Turkish peninsula prior to the arrival of Altaic-speakers.
Meaning: Turkish and Azeri genetics are similar to the genetics of neighbouring ethnicities, and the similarities are due to the local genes in Turks.
- http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/HG_2004_v114_p127-148. pdf
Minor genetic influence of Turkic speakers
Various estimates exist of the proportion of gene flow associated with the arrival of Central Asian Turkic speaking people to Anatolia. One study based on analyses of six STR loci in 88 Y-chromosomes from Turkey suggested only a 10% contribution (Rolf et al. 1999). Another study suggests roughly 30% based upon mtDNA control region sequences and one binary and six STR Y-chromosome loci analyzed in 118 Turkish samples (Di Benedetto et al. 2001). While it is likely that gene flow between Central Asia and Anatolia has occurred repeatedly throughout prehistory, uncertainties regarding source populations and the number of such episodes between Central Asia and Europe confound any assessment of the contribution of the 11th century AD Oghuz nomads responsible for the Turkic language replacement. These new Y-chromosome data provide candidate haplogroups to differentiate lineages specific to the postulated source populations, thus overcoming potential artifacts caused by indistinguishable overlapping gene flows. The best candidates for estimations are Asian-specific haplogroups C-RPS4Y (Wells et al. 2001; Karafet et al. 2001; Zerjal et al. 2003) and O3-M122 (Su et al. 2000). These lineages occur at 1.5% in Turkey (8/523). Using Central Asian Y-chromosome data from either 13 populations and 149 samples (Underhill et al. 2000) or 49 populations and 1,935 samples (Wells et al. 2001) where these diagnostic lineages occur at 33% and 18%, respectively, their estimated contributions range from 0.0153/0.329100=4.6% to 0.0153/0.180100=8.5%.
During the Bronze Age the population of Anatolia expanded, reaching an estimated level of 12 million during the late Roman Period (Russell 1958). Such a large pre-existing Anatolian population would have reduced the impact by the subsequent arrival of Turkic speaking Seljuk and Osmanl groups from Central Asia. Although the genetic legacy of Anatolia remains somewhat inchoate, our excavations of these new levels of shared Y-chromosome heritage and subsequent diversification provide new clues to Anatolian prehistory, as well as a substantial foundation for comparisons with other populations. Our results demonstrate Anatolias role as a buffer between culturally and genetically distinct populations, being both an important source and recipient of gene flow.
Meaning: We cannot tell for sure, but the genetic impact of the Oghuz isnt that much.
The genetic features of populations before admixture are unknown, and must be approximated using information on contemporary samples (see Guglielmino et al., 1990). If the European populations of the eastern Mediterranean region are not too different genetically from the 11th century Anatolian population, and if the Turkmen incomers were not too different from the modern Turkic speaking groups of Central Asia, this study shows that: 1) the Anatolian gene pool contains a substantial fraction of alleles of Asian origin; 2) immigration rates inferred from female- and male-transmitted traits are similar; 3) if there was a single, nearly instantaneous admixture event, some 30% of the current Anatolian genes have a Central Asian origin; and 4) if there was a continuous input of Central Asian alleles, it occurred at a rate of 1% per generation (or less, had the process started before the first Turkmen contact).
Meaning: If we compare the genetics of the modern Anatolian population to those of the modern Central Asians, up to 30% match. Note that this research is the one which found the highest percentage. It still says that 70% of the genes are not from Central Asia. Other research usually finds a lower percentage, 10% (Rolf et al, mentioned above) and even less.
Conclusion:
Anatolians are genetically much closer to the peoples in neighbouring areas (i.e. Balkans, Middle East, Caucasus) than to the Central Asians.
My note to the Turkish nationalists infesting this forum:
You are not cousins of the Turkmens, Uzbeks and Kyrgyz, you are cousins of Greeks, Armenians and Kurds,so be nice to your cousins the next time.
Beylerbeyi wote: "My note to the Turkish nationalists infesting this forum:You
are not cousins of the Turkmens, Uzbeks and Kyrgyz, you are cousins of
Greeks, Armenians and Kurds,so be nice to your cousins the next time."
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