The best Horse Riders

Originally posted by Majkes Quote that Cossack cavalry was better than Polish and especially better than Polish-Lithuanian Winged Hussars is one of the stupidest I've ever read on this forum.[IMG]height=17 alt=Wacko src="http://www.allempires.com/forum/smileys/smiley29.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>

    
Quote that anybody feared Polish is also the stupidest I have ever heard.

Originally posted by Russian Originally posted by Majkes Originally posted by Russian Originally posted by Majkes Temujin You try to play an expert in cavalry but You just don't know facts and history of region You are talking about. Most of Your arguments is just untrue like Cossacks unbeaten during Napoleonic Wars which is complete bullsh*t. Now You start saying that Cossacks of the Guard were undefeated. Polish Lancers of Emperor Guard qwere also undefeated. If Cossack cavalry was so good and Polish copied it then why Cossacks almost never fought against Polish on horses but on foot. They wanted to be fair? to give a chance to their enemies? Polish infantry didn't use pikes cause there were no cavalry in a known world who could have go through Polish cavalry and attack Polish infantry.For rest of Your claims You have no arguments. These are only Your theoris not having much common with the truth. Maybe Yoy should read more about wars between Commonwealth and Russia and Cossack You would know something more. I still ask You about Battles when Russian or Cossack cavalry defeated Polish before Napoleonic wars. If Polish copied Cossacks they must have been better than Polish and defeat them in some battles. I will be glad to find out about it. Polish-Lithuanian Hussaria was created in the beginning of XVIth and first defeat in 1620 - Battle of Cecora against Turkish. During that period they won e.g. Battles of Orsza 1614, of Obertyn 1531, of Lubiszew 1577, Byczyna 1588, Kokenhausen 1601, Kircholm 1605, Kłuszyn 1610, Chocim 1621, Trzciana 1629, Martyn�w 1624, Ochmat�w 1644, Beresteczko 1651, Chocim 1673, Lwowem 1675, Wieden 1683 and others. Stiil much better than Cossacks- maybe 2 years undefeated. To compare Cossacks cavalry to Winged Hussars means to know completly nothing about history of cavalry. P.S. I agree with You that best horse riders are not the same what best cavalry. But You were saying about Cossack cavalry being better than Polish which is a complete nonsense for everyone who knows something about cavalry history. you see, you are from Poland, in Russia peopole would tell you that it is complete nonsense to compare Polish cavalry to Cossacks, and NO, Hussars were defeated, by Turks, turkish cavalry was probably as good as Hussars. what happened to Polish famous Hussars in 1700s when Poland was divided by three powers? where were they?           Turkish cavalry was beaten by Polish in Battles of Chocim 1621, Chocim 1673 and Wienna 1688. They won only in Battle of Cecora so it is 3:1 to us. So Your tesis doesn't look so good. Where was Russian cavalry when we 7.000 Polish beat 35.000 Russian army in Battle of Kłuszyn and in many others battles like Orsza. It didn't even appear on the battlefield. They just feared to fight with Polish. In 1700 Polish hussars stopped to exist so it is stupid question. It's like ask where was falanga when Turkich conquered Greece? Complete nonsense. Ok, Battle of Dobrynichi, where were Hussars, they were defeated. The Russian cavalry decided to counter-attack the fleeing enemy horsemen and foot soldiers and crushed them completely. There you go my friend. Nobody feared Poland, it almost always united with someone, with Litwa, or with Sweden sometimes, it rarely acted alone. Hussars were not cimply Polish, they were of Commonwealth. what about Siege of Troitse-Sergiyeva Lavra? Polish-Lithuanian army of some 15,000 men (led by Jan Piotr Sapieha and Aleksander Lisowski) laid siege to the fortress of the Trinity monastery (Russian: Troitse-Sergiyeva Lavra), which had been protecting the northern approaches to Moscow. The Russian garrison (estimated at between 2,200 and 2,400 men) consisted of dvoryane, streltsy, monastic servants, monks, and peasants, led by the voyevodas Prince Grigory Dolgorukov and Aleksey Golokhvastov. Polish GREATLY outnumbering army got it's ass wooped, by peasants. I know that Russia was generally losing in these times, but it is also true tat Russia was rarely defending it's territory from Polish at these times, it was mainly a war between Poland and Ukraine, who wanted to liberate themselves, and it was Cossacks who were rebelling, while Russia occasionally helping them. And from 1700 on, Russia was mainly attacking Poland, and as we know, Russia is not that good of an attacker, but still, got Poland divided, together with other states. However, the results of these wars: Russia becomes one of main powers, Poland gets divided, and now you are maybe saying that Poland would win if they would have Hussars? My friend, Hussars were outdated, with the appearance of more advanced firearms, Hussars were slaughtered easily, so, they were not needed anymore. I know eh, everybody feared Poland then, Russia too, it especially feared Polish invasion, was terrified, especially those sneaky attempts by Poland to get someone on russian throne, someone polish, but to disguise him as russian ressurected prince. As I am looking right now at Wikipedia, I am reading, wars of Russia and Poland, in general, throughout the history, Russia is listed as losing every single battle and every single war, but by some magical force, unexplainable force, gaining territories, also, Katherine the Great, her armies are listed under Suvorov to be winning only two battles, both with Turkey, all oter battles, to Prussia and all other countries it also lost, oh yeah, it did, but again, by some unexplainable force gained 200000 miles of territory under it's control, not including Siberia. How was that? I wonder. I don't want to get this discussion in to general, about wars, since it is about horse riding, and we all know that best HORSE RIDERS are cossacks and mongolians, while Hussars were definitely one of the best cavalry, but there is no single BEST cavalry, you can as well find some periods when Turks were also not defeated, so let's also call them best cavalry.

Originally posted by Russian Ok, I was thinking you say Polish hussars, sorry. Russia is a bad attacker, but best defender.

Ok, . You had some great victories I admit.

Where do You live? I was in Russia in Novgorod Wielki. Don't think Your victories are forgotten. It's hard to forget victories over Napoleon and Hitler.

1. Mongols

The best riders

Originally posted by Temujin Originally posted by Majkes Temujin You try to play an expert in cavalry but You just don't know facts and history of region You are talking about. Most of Your arguments is just untrue like Cossacks unbeaten during Napoleonic Wars which is complete bullsh*t.   no it is not, tell me a single example where they were beaten.   Now You start saying that Cossacks of the Guard were undefeated. Polish Lancers of Emperor Guard qwere also undefeated.   in regards of Austerlitz, one can say that Guard Cossacks were beaten (by the best cavalry Regiments of the Nap Wars), but as i already said the Guard Lancers were more severely beaten by light infantry.   If Cossack cavalry was so good and Polish copied it then why Cossacks almost never fought against Polish on horses but on foot. They wanted to be fair? to give a chance to their enemies? Polish infantry didn't use pikes cause there were no cavalry in a known world who could have go through Polish cavalry and attack Polish infantry.For rest of Your claims You have no arguments. These are only Your theoris not having much common with the truth. Maybe Yoy should read more about wars between Commonwealth and Russia and Cossack You would know something more. I still ask You about Battles when Russian or Cossack cavalry defeated Polish before Napoleonic wars. If Polish copied Cossacks they must have been better than Polish and defeat them in some battles. I will be glad to find out about it.   you're only talking about Zaporozhian Cossacks, the Don and Volga Cosacks fought more often on horseback. besides what about Polish cavalry in great northern war? or Charles X invasion? please enlighten us...I also know of 5 battles of the Khmelnitski Rebellion, Zolte Wody, Korsun, Pilawice, Berestechko and Batoh. except for Berestechko Cossacks won each battle. i don't know the battle describtions but i must assume Wigned Hussars must have fought at one fot he first three battles as well and maybe Cossacks fougth mounted in oen of the first three battles too. BTW, i was only talking about Cossacks of Napoleonic Wars, not earlier 17th century, i also think Polsih cavalry was best during that time but it was you who brought up Polish cavalry superiority through the ages.   Polish-Lithuanian Hussaria was created in the beginning of XVIth and first defeat in 1620 - Battle of Cecora against Turkish. During that period they won e.g. Battles of Orsza 1614, of Obertyn 1531, of Lubiszew 1577, Byczyna 1588, Kokenhausen 1601, Kircholm 1605, Kłuszyn 1610, Chocim 1621, Trzciana 1629, Martyn�w 1624, Ochmat�w 1644, Beresteczko 1651, Chocim 1673, Lwowem 1675, Wieden 1683 and others. Stiil much better than Cossacks- maybe 2 years undefeated. To compare Cossacks cavalry to Winged Hussars means to know completly nothing about history of cavalry.   I looked it up and i actually found out every type of Polsih cavalry ever was copied from other armies: Winged Hussars were copies of Serbian/Ottoman examples, Dragoons & medieval knights came from West, Pancerni was copied from the Steppe, probably Cossacks as name implies, Uhlans were copies of young Tatar nobility cavalry called Oglans who also fought with lances. so it is completely nonsense to talk about who introduced first or who copied from whom, eventually it only matters who made the best of it.   P.S. I agree with You that best horse riders are not the same what best cavalry. But You were saying about Cossack cavalry being better than Polish which is a complete nonsense for everyone who knows something about cavalry history.   it depends on the century....   Originally posted by ataman By now you and Temujin were able to give me examples that Polish lancers in 1812-1813 were defeated thanks to suprise or huge numerical superiority (or both). Can you give me an example of regular fighting where Cossack cavalry won although it was equel to (or was outnumbered by) Polish lancers? I have already gave you an example where Polish lancers defeated Cossack cavalry although they (lancers) were suprised and were outnumbered many times by Cossacks.   1. it is irrelevant if your lancers were surprised or outnumbered, you still fail to get one major point, if the question is "what is the BEST cavalry" then it DOES matter if a unit gets outnumbered or surpirsed because such untis cannot be cosniddered BEST in that case. it belonged to Cossacks doctrine always to withdrew if the odds are against them and only attack when they are certain of victory. this mentality puts them ahead of Polish lancers and other cavalry of the time. 2. no you didn't, all you did was giving us a Polish website, no English soruce at all, i couldn't found a single reference about what event you are talking about at all.   Originally posted by Majkes That's nice that You know so many cavalry formations but so what. They weren't of equal quality. Polish Vistula uhlans and Lancers of the Guard were better than others You mentioned.   if they weren't of equal quality its the fault of the Polish lancers because all Lancer Regiments in French service were trained by Poles...and Red Lancers and Lancers of Berg were certainly better in quality than most if not all Polish lancers of the Grandduchy of Warsaw.   even Swedish cavalry who were listed in tier 4 by your beloved Naftziger defeated Polish 17th Uhlans. read here: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3495&KW=hussar&PN=2   Originally posted by ataman If so, you can see that it is nonsense to compare Cossacks to French or Polish cavalry in Napoleon period, because neither Polish nor French cavalry was composed only of members of 1 social class. Now I can agree with you - Cossack cavalry (during Napoleon's period) was the best in their category, because they were alone in this category . Anyway, there is also a period before Napoleon. There are 16th or 17th c. There are winged hussars, who were both - a formation and a social class. Compare Cossack cavalry to them. I'm wainting for a battle where Cossack cavalry fought and defeated winged hussars.   Ok so we agree once...   The period we were talking about was 1500-1620. The Swedes didn't defeat Polish hussars in that time.   You are wrong.  Poland had maybe 10 years without any fighting in the period 1500-1720.   now hold on, which period do you want to talk about now? i wouldn't go as far back as 1500, the Hussars you talk about (heavy lancers) only came into existence during Bathorys time. you cannot simpy compare cavalry of different periods, for examples dragoons who changed alot in the period we talk about.   Originally posted by ataman Prove it.   Pskov Cuirassiers wore captured French polished cuirasses instead of the usual Russian blackened Cuirasses. theres no other regiment with such trophies...   check here for more Russian cavalry supremacy: http://web2.airmail.net/napoleon/Russian_cavalry.htm here i found this reference: They also fought at Slonim where with the Cossacks defeated Napoleon's 3rd Lighthorse-Lancer Regiment (Young Guard). I think this is the same event where the Tatars of the Guard were almost destroyed because they were attached to the 3rd Guard Lancers. http://web2.airmail.net/napoleon/Russian_guard.htm and finally this which i think you will find interesting: http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=battle_la_fere_champenoise   Again, prove it. BTW, here is interesting story about Krakusi (from http://web2.airmail.net/napoleon/polish_army_2.htm#polishcavalry) [/quote]   1. as Napoleon remarked, they have small mounts, just like the Donskoi Steppe Pony of the Cossacks. 2. they carried lances, but why where they not Uhlans? 3. their uniform is slightly similar to some Cossack uniform. 4. it is said Napoleon got the idea for the Eclaireurs of the Guard by this Regiment. the Eclaireurs are intended to counter Cossacks. 5. in some French sources they are refered to as Cosaques 6. they had no lance pennons (like Cossacks) but horsetails like Tatars 7. they were created by decree of 19th december, 2 days after Napoleon reached Paris after him leaving the army in Russia, it is clear that he needed to create an answer to the Cossacks above everyhting else...   It's not true.   this shows that you are either completely ignorant or you're a Propagandist. it is known by EVERYONE that Cossacks at way longer Lances than Uhlans, this reference can be found in each book about Napoleonic wars and its really not a secret, for example your own reference site says that:   "... the lance is their main weapon. He knows how to use this weapon with great skill and security, nevertheless the fact that it is one and a half foot longer as the Polish lance.   http://web2.airmail.net/napoleon/cossacks.htm   this site gives 265-277cm for Polish lances and 280-290 for Russian Uhlan & Hussar lances for example. Cossacks lance was 4.25 meters in lenght for most but some minor Cossack host had Uhlan lances with pennons which were only 3 meters in lenght.   Read Polish memoires from 16-17th. For example Pasek's memoire. It is enough to read the first page of his memoire and you will change your opinion.   this is but one nobleman, but what about poor peasants? Cossacks were just one class and every male was automatcially a soldier and raised with the horse.   [quote] Read for example 'Przewagi elearow polskich' to see that Polish cavalrymen did it long time before Cossacks learnt such tricks.   Temujin, it becomes boring to correct all your mistakes.    learn to use English soruces if you want to back up anythign you say. maybe there was a couple of Poles who knew how to do it but to say Poles did it first is the most ridiculous statement ever because everyone on this forum can tell you that Mongols did it 300 years earlier aynways. but the difference here is, it was required for all Cossacks to to such tricks to be accepted a true Cossack but it was just a trick that few noblemen knew in Poland, it was not common nor expected for regular Polish cavalrymen. and i wonder how winged hussars should be able to do this anyways...

Edited by Wulfher ap Clun - 05-Jun-2006 at 13:54

Originally posted by Temujin because both of you sabotage this discussion with continuously comparign everyhting to winged Hussars

Temujin, it seems that you are not able to understand that we (Majkes and me) compare Cossack cavalry to winged hussars because these kind of cavalry existed in the same time (I mean 1500-1775) and fought with each other.
You and Russian claim that Cossack cavalry was the best. If so, why you can't find any example that Cossack cavalry defeated Polish winged hussars?
If you don't want any comparison to winged hussars, you should say something like this - 'Cossack cavalry was the best from 1776'. But you didn't do it and you don't want do it.

Originally posted by Temujin Guard Lancers were defeated at Montmirail by the Silesian Rifle battaillion.

I didn't know that Silesian rifle battaillion was a Cossack cavalry. WOW.
If you don't remember I will repeat last time: this is discussion about cavalry. I've asked you about any battle where Cossack cavalry defeated (in regular fighting) Polish lancers. I've already written an example of the battle where Polish lancers defeated outnumbered Cossack cavalry - although the Poles were suprised. You were able to find only an example that Cossacks defeated sleeping Poles.

Originally posted by Temujin you cannot proove that Poles did those tricks first because they didn't.

Temujin, I know that my English isn't perfect, but I don't think that it is so bad that you can't understand very simple sentence. I have written that the Poles did those tricks before Cossacks. I didn't write (and Majkes has already explained it) that the Poles did it before anybody.

Originally posted by Temujin 5. In XVIII century Poland was in anarchy if You don't know. Our army was a joke. if your army was a joke, why you constantly claim Polsih cavalry was the best?

Temujin, tell me this sentence where I have written that Polish cavalry was the best.
We (Majkes and me) claim that Polish winged hussars were better than Cossack cavalry (so Cossack cavalry wasn't the best). If you don't agree with our opinion, tell me an example from 18th c. that Cossack cavalry defeated Polish winged hussars. I want an example from 18th c. - from this century, when Polish army was 'a joke' and Cossack cavalry was (in your opinion) the best.
You are not able to find any example, because even poor winged hussars were better than your excellent Cossack cavalry.

Originally posted by Temujin Wigned Hussars were beaten at Cecora btu you still are saying Winged Hussars are unmatched. again you accuse me of propagadna that you are using yourself.

Temujin, it is really boring to write again and again basic facts. The battle of Cecora was in 1620. We claim that Polish winged hussars were undefeated until 1620 and the battle of Cecora was the first battle, when they were defeated.
BTW, Polish hussars lost in this battle becase they were dismounted. So it is not an example that enemy cavalry was better than mounted hussars.

Originally posted by Temujin Cossacks exist at least since 15th century

WOW. Temujin, I see that I made mistake. You are able to understand that Cossack cavalry existed before Napoleon's time. It's really great. So tell me why you don't want to compare them to Polish cavalry which existed in the same time?

Originally posted by Temujin and they indeed had armoured cavalry, but the Cossacks Poels fought didn't.

Well, it is very interesting sentence. The Poles copied armour from Cossacks who didn't use armour.

Oh, well. This discussion is really boring. Here is my proposal. We can start this discussion again, but let's keep the topic of this thread. This is the thread about the best horse riders. It is not about best cavalry!
Remember that if you claim something, give us a source of your information. And finally - if anybody wants to use sources written in Polish, Russian etc., he must translat this source.
If you will keep these 3 rules, I can continue this discussion. If not, I'll leave it.

Originally posted by Zorigo One interesting fact is that Napoleonic SOldier hat become their national hat after 1812 �

Thanks Zorigo for your post. Look at this:
http://www.republika.pl/pan_tadeusz_miniencyklopedia/konfederatka.jpg

This is a Polish hat called 'konfederatka'. This hat was used by Polish nobles in a second half of 18th. Its name is from 'konfederacja barska' (The bar's confederacy). The Poles introduced this hat to Napoleon's army and it seems that it could be a model for Kalmyks' national hats :).

     
    
    

Edited by ataman - 06-Jun-2006 at 06:13