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    Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 10:10
You all make very good points...............but rember what the question was (who were the best horse riders).......not who had the best calvery........or had the most victories........all the cultures listed were grat horseman...and horsewoman................however the Native americans were the only ones to hunt from a horse......the other peoples herded animal. lets face it, most of the time al these people were trying to survive and eat (war only occupied a small part of their lifes).
 
 Remeber as well that the great plains of North america are some of the most fertile...........so horses from this part of the worl where muc h larger than your mongel or turk horse.........simply because of the rich environmet they lived in.
 
 Lastly, agin I reiterate the question was(who were the best horse riders)...that would be an individual. So lets say we have a time travel machine and we go back in time and grab a Turk, Mongol, and Comanche...at randome and let them all show us their stuff on horseback........I'm betting they all would do well........but I think the indian would edge them out.
 
I like this site..........I'm learning a lot.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 10:16
Another thing........in the plains indian society it was all about flash...........they sometimes would not even kill an enemy but count coup on him (were they ride close enough to the enemy an touch him with a stick to show their bravery).......................they had to be grat on a horse because showing off (showing others you could do more brave things)..........was more important than being funtional.......they all fought and hunted as individuals..............they had no leader, every man controlled himself and could thus be more daring........All americans like to show off.........the native americans are no exception.
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Huns and Mongols...Saracens when it comes to camelSmile
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well at least someone thinks our long discussion has some educational value....
 
nealglen37
 
just a few comments, i wanted to answer you in full detail but i didn't had time yet.
 
1. Herodotus reports that Scythians were able to hunt down a charging hare with  javelin, i don't think anyone else thereafter was able to do this.
 
2. you said Comanche rode next to a bison and shot it point blank. well, i've seen an old B/w movie from the inauguration of the last Dalai Lama around 1901 or so. in the movie you could see Tibetan cavalrymen riding next to a target and shooting it from a distance of 1-2 meters with both bow as well as musket.
 
3. you said Mongols are sheepherders but Comanche are hunters. well this is the case today, but in historical times Mongols were hunters as well but its easier and smarter to lvie of ehardign instead of just hutning. i also want to say that i've seen a mvoie were Kazakhs today sued eagles for hutning animals as big as wolves (no kidding). i find that extremely interesting and more impressive than Comanches art of hunting because it recquires years of training and raising an eagle.
 
for me, the best cavalryman of America is probably the Gaucho of the Argentinian Pampa, at least if it comes to lance-armed cavalry. best mounted rifles could be Sioux or Commanche indeed. the Gacho combines Spains Picadores tradition witht eh vast expanses of the Pampa and he fought the same way as Cossacks, but he was propbably better armed, though less skilled horse rider. i've seen a south-american variant of bull-fighting were the rider had to bring down the bull with an untipped lance by pressing the lance on the back of the bull and thus brigning him down, it is hard to descrieb but it was extremely beautiful to watch the skill of horsemanship. and just look at the war of latin-american independence to see what a couple of Gauchos were able to do.
 
ataman, well, you said Cecora doesn't count because Wigned Hussars dismoutned, so i can ask you the same: did the Poles wanted to be fair? as I can see there were no battles were Winged Hussars fought Cossacks cavalry, Zaporozhians always dismounted to fight and used field fortifiactions from what i know, btu Don and Volga voiskos used cavalry more often but they never fought against Wigned Hussars. well, i thought i mentioned in the very beginning that i only considder Cossacks from around 1700 or so onwards as the better horsemen. Yakut cavalrymen of Siberia were reported to defeat Cossacks several times. they were heavily armoured and well armed with halberds, Russians said Yakuts and Swedes produced teh finest steel in the world. but Yakuts vs Winged Hussars is interesting, but it never happened. i've seen those warriors, they look fierce. ok, so lets conclude and say Polsh Winged Hussar was best from 1500-1700 and Cossacks were best from 1700-1900. as for best horseriders, well you have not yet prooven that Poles did it first, i've never heard that before. I know this was introduced in the Steppe and made its way west and Cossacks said they learned from Circassians which makes perfect sense to me since they later on also copied their uniforms. btw Kalmyks were really equipped with new uniforms in 1812 which was Cossack uniform but with konfederatka headdress. maybe i can find a picture, i only have one in my book.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 23:03
In respose to Temujin:
 
2. you said Comanche rode next to a bison and shot it point blank. well, i've seen an old B/w movie from the inauguration of the last Dalai Lama around 1901 or so. in the movie you could see Tibetan cavalrymen riding next to a target and shooting it from a distance of 1-2 meters with both bow as well as musket.
 
3. you said Mongols are sheepherders but Comanche are hunters. well this is the case today, but in historical times Mongols were hunters as well but its easier and smarter to lvie of ehardign instead of just hutning. i also want to say that i've seen a mvoie were Kazakhs today sued eagles for hutning animals as big as wolves (no kidding). i find that extremely interesting and more impressive than Comanches art of hunting because it recquires years of training and raising an eagle.
 
My reply:
 
 1.) Shooting a stationay target ....................is not quite the same as shooting a moving animal thats trying to kill you.
 
 2.) Anyone out there every seen a bird big enough to kill an 80 pound wolf.....................oh wait us..................a teridectal.
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Posts: 1144 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 00:50
Originally posted by Temujin

well at least someone thinks our long discussion has some educational value....
 
  
ataman, well, you said Cecora doesn't count because Wigned Hussars dismoutned, so i can ask you the same: did the Poles wanted to be fair? as I can see there were no battles were Winged Hussars fought Cossacks cavalry, Zaporozhians always dismounted to fight and used field fortifiactions from what i know, btu Don and Volga voiskos used cavalry more often but they never fought against Wigned Hussars. well, i thought i mentioned in the very beginning that i only considder Cossacks from around 1700 or so onwards as the better horsemen. Yakut cavalrymen of Siberia were reported to defeat Cossacks several times. they were heavily armoured and well armed with halberds, Russians said Yakuts and Swedes produced teh finest steel in the world. but Yakuts vs Winged Hussars is interesting, but it never happened. i've seen those warriors, they look fierce. ok, so lets conclude and say Polsh Winged Hussar was best from 1500-1700 and Cossacks were best from 1700-1900. as for best horseriders, well you have not yet prooven that Poles did it first, i've never heard that before. I know this was introduced in the Steppe and made its way west and Cossacks said they learned from Circassians which makes perfect sense to me since they later on also copied their uniforms. btw Kalmyks were really equipped with new uniforms in 1812 which was Cossack uniform but with konfederatka headdress. maybe i can find a picture, i only have one in my book.
1.Ok, I see we finally coming to the end of this long discussion. I don't want to ansswer all things that You wrote in Your previous s I only mentioned that Uhlans of Visthula routed Coulburne brigade during battle of Albuera. If not answer me who did it or it didn't happen in Your opinion?
 
Also Polish Lancers assault in Somosierra was succesful:
But I think if I would write that Polish Lithuanian army defeated Teuton knights in Tautenberg 1410 You would say that it's not true and correcxt me somehow.
2. I can't agree Cossacks were the best cavalry from 1700 untill 190 because it's just untrue. I've already said they were por during Crimean War ( half of XIX th century and there is no prove they were the best in XVIII thcentury. Actually Napoleonic Wars are times of many very good cavalries and Cossacks had great competition. For me they were not the best. They were one of the best. The discussion about best horse riders is diffrent thing. In my opinion the best were Tartars but surely Cossacks were very close.
3. During the Battle of Cecora Polish army was traped and they couldn't charge. This was good tactic of Turkish army and their numerical superiority that let them win not that their cavalry was better than Polish.
4.Comparison of Yakutsk cavalry to Polish Lithuanian Hussars is funny. What did they achieve. To beat Cossacks cavalry which was por those times it's too small to compete with Hussars. Besides Polish light cavalry - Lisowczycy ( also better cavalry than Cossacks, althoug some Cossacks were part of it as well as Polish, Lithuanians and Tartars ) travelled through Siberia in the beginning of XVII th century and they haven't noticed there any decent rivals.
5. Generally Polish were learning many things connected with horses and cavalry mainly from Turkish and Hungarians but not from Cossacks. Their cavalry wasn't valued in Poland in oposition to their infantry.
 
I agree that it's nice to hear that someone is reading what we write. I thought it just us 3 who are in it...
 
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Posts: 1108 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 01:21

Originally posted by Temujin


ataman, well, you said Cecora doesn't count because Wigned Hussars dismoutned, so i can ask you the same: did the Poles wanted to be fair?


No, they didn't. Winged hussars were defeated at night, close to Polish border, in the Polish camp, when Polish servatns become flee from Polish camp. Servants become flee because they realized that Polish commander Stanisław Żłkiewski wanted to punish them for their plunder. They though that close to the Polish border they were already safe, so they (I mean servants) thieved horses their masters, teard a Polish tabor and become flee. Unfortunately for Polish army, there were Tartars around. When they recognized what happened, they attacked panicked Poles and won.
Winged hussars had no a chance to fight mounted. Even Polish hetman Stanisław Żłkiewski was killed dismounted.


Originally posted by Temujin


as I can see there were no battles were Winged Hussars fought Cossacks cavalry, Zaporozhians always dismounted to fight and used field fortifiactions from what i know,


Temujin, I have already written examples of battles where Polish winged hussars fought (and won) with Cossack cavalry. Please read again our discussion.

Originally posted by Temujin


btu Don and Volga voiskos used cavalry more often


AFAIK there was no significant difference between Zaporozian and Don Cossacks.

Originally posted by Temujin


but they never fought against Wigned Hussars.


Well, Don Cossacks supported Zaporozian Cossacks many times. Don Cossacks were also used against Poland in the war 1654-1667.

Originally posted by Temujin


as for best horseriders, well you have not yet prooven that Poles did it first, i've never heard that before.


Maybe because Polish army isn't known outside Poland too much:). Anyway, there are 2 very interesting sources which describe horse skill of Polish cavalrymen from 1620's (I mean 'Przewagi elearw polskich' and 'Wiersze o lisowczykach'). For example there is a description of crossing the Rhene river by Polish riders. They were swimming and were shooting from bows to goals situated on both banks of the river. Some of them were crossing the river standing on their horses (I mean their horses were swimming while riders were standing on them). There are descriptions that riderds changed horses in full career, that riders hided behind horses (of course in full career) etc.

Temujin, can you provide any primary source which describes similar tricks of Cossack cavalry made before 1620's?
    
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Battle of Cecora desription below
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1.) Shooting a stationay target ....................is not quite the same as shooting a moving animal thats trying to kill you.
 
 2.) Anyone out there every seen a bird big enough to kill an 80 pound wolf.....................oh wait us..................a teridectal.
 
it was just parade, btut ehy were able to do that in combat as well, what do you want? actually i don't think riding next to a bull is pretty smart, rifles int eh 19th century were accurate enough to kill bisons over a distance, sorry i will not praise them for stupidity...all in all, hitting a target as small and fast as a chargign hare with a wepaon as cumbersome as a javelin from horseback certainly wins over Comanche daredevilness...
 
2. I've seen it with my eyes, eagles are actually big and powerfull beasts, and i'm not talking about American white-head sea-eagle who preys on fish but the brown eagles of Eurasia...
 
Majkes, thank you for your link on Cecora battle, i will read it when i have time. do you also have description for the battles of the Cossack uprising?
i do not deny that Vistula Lancers crushed Colborne brigade, but a. they lost their flag in the event when they were pushed back by the Spanish infantry and b. they were not alone in the charge, at least one squadron of French 2nd Hussars participated in the charge.
about Somosierra, well the first charge of 100 horsemen was bloodily repulsed, the Polish light horse could only suceed after being backed up by more horsemen and some squadrons from the Chasseurs of the Guard, so actually Polish were minority in the last (sucessfull) charge. remember, Napoleon only admitted them to the Old Guard thereafter because of their bravery, not because they actually suceeded. after all, for Napoleon they defeated just "Spanish peasants".
 
Originally posted by ataman


Maybe because Polish army isn't known outside Poland too much:). Anyway, there are 2 very interesting sources which describe horse skill of Polish cavalrymen from 1620's (I mean 'Przewagi elearw polskich' and 'Wiersze o lisowczykach'). For example there is a description of crossing the Rhene river by Polish riders. They were swimming and were shooting from bows to goals situated on both banks of the river. Some of them were crossing the river standing on their horses (I mean their horses were swimming while riders were standing on them). There are descriptions that riderds changed horses in full career, that riders hided behind horses (of course in full career) etc.

Temujin, can you provide any primary source which describes similar tricks of Cossack cavalry made before 1620's?
    
 
you mean crossing the rhine river? as far a is know the only Polish unit to take part in 30 years war were the Lisowski Cossacks.... ;)


Edited by Temujin - 07-Jun-2006 at 13:29
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Originally posted by Temujin

[ 
Majkes, thank you for your link on Cecora battle, i will read it when i have time. do you also have description for the battles of the Cossack uprising?
i do not deny that Vistula Lancers crushed Colborne brigade, but a. they lost their flag in the event when they were pushed back by the Spanish infantry and b. they were not alone in the charge, at least one squadron of French 2nd Hussars participated in the charge.
about Somosierra, well the first charge of 100 horsemen was bloodily repulsed, the Polish light horse could only suceed after being backed up by more horsemen and some squadrons from the Chasseurs of the Guard, so actually Polish were minority in the last (sucessfull) charge. remember, Napoleon only admitted them to the Old Guard thereafter because of their bravery, not because they actually suceeded. after all, for Napoleon they defeated just "Spanish peasants".
 
Originally posted by ataman


Maybe because Polish army isn't known outside Poland too much:). Anyway, there are 2 very interesting sources which describe horse skill of Polish cavalrymen from 1620's (I mean 'Przewagi elearw polskich' and 'Wiersze o lisowczykach'). For example there is a description of crossing the Rhene river by Polish riders. They were swimming and were shooting from bows to goals situated on both banks of the river. Some of them were crossing the river standing on their horses (I mean their horses were swimming while riders were standing on them). There are descriptions that riderds changed horses in full career, that riders hided behind horses (of course in full career) etc.

Temujin, can you provide any primary source which describes similar tricks of Cossack cavalry made before 1620's?
    
 
you mean crossing the rhine river? as far a is know the only Polish unit to take part in 30 years war were the Lisowski Cossacks.... ;)
Battle of Yellow Waters
Here You have most of Polish Cossacks battles from Chmielnicky uprising:
 
q=cache:VIt3wCpLatkJ:www.jasinski.co.uk/wojna/conflicts/conf05.htm+Battle+of+Batoh&hl=pl&gl=pl&ct=clnk&cd=9
I know taht one of this battles You can be proud of as a German. I don't remember which. German mercenaries after betrayal of Cossacks fighting for Poles refused to abandon Polish army or give up. Finally they were cut off by Cossack.
2. Uhlans of Visthula were main force which routed Coulborne Brigade. Maybe there were some French but not more than 25% of joined Polish-French troops. In most sources it is mentioned that Uhlans of Visthula attacked alone but I met sources which say about 200 of French Hussars. Maybe it is true. I wasn't there so I don't know. But whatr does it change? Nothing. And they were later repulsed by Spanish and so what I didn't say that 600 Polish Uhlans killed everyone in the Battle. You probably thinjk Cossack would destroy Coulborne Brigade than Spanish infantry and finally attack and burn English fleetLOL Well Uhlans of Vistula were not that good but they were called by Spanisz "Los Picadores del Inferno" o "Los Diablos Polacos".
There are diffrent descriptions of Battle of Somosierra. Why are You always so sure that Yours is right? It is sure that charge of Polish Lancers was a crucial moment of this Battle.
3. You claim that Lisowczycy were Cossacks!!! Men You should go to the doctor. You see Cossacks everywhere. Here You have a link. Go ahead, learn something about Lisowczycy - POLISH LITHUANIAN CAVALRY:
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I dont want to step into a personal discussion or anything but would like to point out that on the retreat from moscow when the Garde Lancers of both Poland/Holland were fighting the Cossacks (I shall confess to not knowing which ones) It was ordered that all piquets should consist of two both Poles and Dutch, and that the Dutch.

The Cossacks were picking off the Dutch (in Red) and avoiding the Poles (in Blue). One evening (for fun or revenge I do not know) four poles whent out in Dutch Uniform. The cossacks duly attacked and after discovering there mistake (rather Quickley) ran away shout 'Poles, Poles'

This is from memory, as I am at work and my books are at home. But this is taken from the memoirs of Chlapowski I believe.
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I have to give it to steppe peoples and natives, equally. They could both do more or less the same things, which nobody else could do.

However - there is a difference. Steppe peoples spent thousands of years honing their skills and developing things like stirrups, better saddles, and so on. The natives were like horsemen in a box - just add horse, they jumped on the things and away they went, often bareback and without the experience of previous generations, and just suddenly became as good as the best. Like that. It's rather amazing, really.

edit, I should be more specific: Great Plains natives. The Iroqouis and Mayans and Haida and Quecha and the rest of them don't seem to have taken to the horse terribly well, despite ample opportunity.
    

Edited by edgewaters - 21-Jun-2006 at 09:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 09:30
nealglen 37 wrote: 
 Remeber as well that the great plains of North america are some of the most fertile...........
 
....quite true but from the perspective of when natives became a horse cultural they were in the main merely covered with grass which sustained the enormous bison herds initialy  not horse herds.........
 
 
so horses from this part of the worl where muc h larger than your mongel or turk horse.........simply because of the rich environmet they lived in.
 
....that's a matter of conjecture at best....primarily because horses were not native to north america and only appeared as a result of spanish colonialisation of the western hemisphere....hence the breeds of horses were european and moorish in nature initialy.... and the rest is best left to genetic specialists who understand breeding far better then i.
 
...the great american mustang....was a result of cross breeding...accidentle by the way of earlier strains and it's this horse primarily that allowed the developement of the native horse culture..........
 
 Lastly, agin I reiterate the question was(who were the best horse riders)...that would be an individual. So lets say we have a time travel machine and we go back in time and grab a Turk, Mongol, and Comanche...at randome and let them all show us their stuff on horseback........I'm betting they all would do well........but I think the indian would edge them out.
 
...you are then assuming that the native culture which essentialy devloped from the mid 1650's thru the late 1870's was superior...in comparision this is merely approx 200 years ...and while much was accomplished and great fame arose...it imo was inconsequential  compared to the numerous centuries of varying horse cultures found thru out the steppes countries and the great culture found as a result of the rise of Islam in the middle east that in turn was transported to and thru the eastern hemisphere.
 
historicaly it is more accurate to say that the native american culture was the LAST GREAT culture of its type to be formed.Wink
 
 
 
 


Edited by Wulfher ap Clun - 21-Jun-2006 at 09:32
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Poles and Cossacks cavalry from XVI to First and Second World War...

Poles had Winged Hussars (elite heavy cavarly lancers)from XVI to XVIII,
Szwolezery of Napoleonic Era, Uhlans (light mobile cavalry with lances and sabres) from Napoleonic Era to Second World War...

Great battles of Polish Cavalry:
- Battle of Kircholm
decisive polish victory against swedes... Poles 1,300 Infantry and 2,500 Cavalry... Swedes 9,000 Infantry and 3000 Cavalry... Polish Casualties 100 dead 200 wounded... Swedish Casualties 7,000 - 9,000 dead...
The greatest victory of Polish Winged Hussars
- Battle of Beresteczko
decisive victory of polish forces against Cossacks and Tartars...
- Battle of Vienna
victory of polish and habsburg forces against ottomans... polish winged hussars destroyed ottomans forces... after this battle Ottomans were losing battle after battle
- Battle of Somosierra
victory of polish and french forces against spanish... one of most important battles of Napoleonic Wars
- Battle of Komarow
decisive victory of poles against russians... the largest cavalry battle since 1813... Poles 6 Regiments... Russian 20 Regiments (17,500 men)...
Polish Casualties 500 dead... Russian Casualties 4000 dead...

Great battles of Cossacks Cavalry: I don't know any but they were very good riders...

p.s. There were more great polish cavalry battles but i know only this great victories...




Edited by Chrzanovia - 24-Jun-2006 at 06:36
My English is bad :(
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 05:17
 
Circassian Riders
 
 
 


Edited by Glenn - 28-Jun-2006 at 05:18
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