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Mongol trebuchets

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Mangudai View Drop Down
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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mongol trebuchets
    Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 16:28

When did the mongols use the counterweight trbuchet for the first time?

Nu guhk go mis leat meahcit, de lea mis dorvu dn eatnam alde

Ossfok i s kringest sturwekster sttliger. Summer v kulluma i riktit finer!
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  Quote shurite7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 21:42

I'm going off memory, so I may be off a little.  The counter weight trebuchet was created by the Arabs.  It is most likely it was used with the Il-Khans.  There are many depictions of such weapons with the Il-Khan Mongols.

The counter weight trebuchet was introduced into China during the siege of Fen-cheng and Xiangyang in the early 1270's CE.  During the siege Khublai Khan made a request from the Il-Khan, who was his nephew, for siege engineers.  Two were sent and they built the counter weight trebuchet after they arrived in China.  This would indicate they already knew how to design, make and use such siege weapons. 

Cheers

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HistoryGuy View Drop Down
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  Quote HistoryGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 21:47

I have a picture of a Mongol trbuchet.... The second pic was painted in around 1306.



Edited by HistoryGuy
هیچ مردی تا به حال به شما درباره خدا گفته.
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 21:49
It looks like they are chucking those archers.
Maybe the goal was to launch one, in mid air let him shoot off as many arrow as possible and then finish it off with a splat.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 22:01
I am not sure of exact dates for the Mongols' use of the trebuchet for the first time.  However, during the spread of bubonic plague in the 14th century, the Mongols, waging primitive biological warfare, used trebuchets and catapults to lob infected corpses into the coastal Black Sea fortifications of the Italian republics.  The Italians subsequently contracted the plague and transferred it by sea to western Europe.
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  Quote shurite7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 22:13
The first probable use of the trebuchet with the Mongols was with Chingis Khan using Jin siege engineers during his campaigns in Khwarizmia and later against the Tanguts.  As for the "counterweight" most likely the first use was with Hulegue and his campaigns into modern day Iran, Iraq & Syria.
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 05:33
counterweight was used to bombard chinese civilians behind walls in the song campiagn.at the same time they were shooting chinese seige crossbow vs assasins
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  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 08:25
It's possible that Mongol forces in Persia or Central Asia used counterweight catapuls as early as the 1230's.  Our first definate example is at Samarkhand in 1221 where Their allied Islamic infantry, naptha men and catapults were used to capture the suburbs in bitter street fighting, followed up by the catapults attacking the walls of the citadel.  First recorded use by regular Mongol troops was at Warsaw in 1241.


Jin commander Qiang Shen, in his defense of Luoyang from the Mongols  used what was probably a counterwieight catapult but they didn't adopt it.
rgds.

      Tom..
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  Quote Dalsung Hwarang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 00:11
Well most siege technology was learned from the Chinese when the Mongols took it over.
"He who seeks death shall live, and he who seeks life shall die." --Admiral Yi.
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  Quote shurite7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 01:43

They also learned much about siege weapons from the Arabs/Muslims.  The trebuchet was believed to be invented by the Chinese, but the Muslims improved it by creating the counter weight trebuchet.

cheers

 

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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 01:49
wats naptha men?
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  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 08:00
Originally posted by BigL

wats naptha men?


Specialist troops who hurled pots of thickened naptha (half way between bitumen and petrol, occurs natrualy in oil rich regions), often with extras like sulphur.  Very similar effect to modern napalm (which is basically thickened petrolium). 
They were commonly used to support infantry assault troops and in sieges.
rgds.

      Tom..
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 08:34
They used engineers from the Middle East and Central Asia for their siege warfare.
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  Quote shurite7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 23:13

During Chingis Khan's invasion of Khwarizmia one of my sources state the Mongol advance troops (mangudai) had to treat leather to protect them from nafatin troops.  Such troops at times were considered very special sometimes referred to as elite troops.  That might be stretching it, but those who knew how to make it and work with it were quite valuable.  Salah al-Din had such a person inside Acre when the Europeans were besieging it in the late 1180's.  The individual was considered a hero.

cheers

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  Quote shurite7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 02:01
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