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Yeliu Chu Tsai and the Mongol Empire

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cliveersknell View Drop Down
Pretorian
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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Yeliu Chu Tsai and the Mongol Empire
    Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 23:49
CK made an excellent choice in Yeliu Chu Tsai as his principal advisor, Yeliu made several contributions:
a. He created the first administration with regards to
government, taxation, and finance for the Mongols.
b. He prevented the wastage of North China into grassland , instead implemented taxation.
c. He convinced CK to build Karakorum into a Hub to control
the mongol empire more effectively.
The man is quite humble indeed, he trained and recommended Chingkai to be prime minister while he stepped back and fully concentrated on what he is good at civil administration.

Clive
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  Quote Chono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 07:24

That's right, was a great kidanian.

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 14:09
yup, its the triad of genious, Chinggis, Subotai, Yehlu Chutsai
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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 23:45
Thanks for ur replies.
Another interesting point was Yeliu's advice to Ogodai
in dealing with the Southern Song dynasty.
Ogodai originally had no intention of conquering the southern song. As a matter of fact, after the great victory of the mongols and southern song over the remnants of the Jin . Ogodai even gave more concessions to the Song north of the Yangtze river and reaffirmed the Song emperor as his confederate.
However, when Mongol forces moved west in their conquest of Russia and eastern europe, the southern song secretly took more than it's share and even tried to drive the Mongols out of Henan.
Ogodai, initially gave them the benefit of doubt and sent
ambassadors to calmn the matter down and investigate the issues. The ambassadors were killed by the southern song
emperor. Ogodai again ordered another delegation south.
When they were again killed, the first person he asked for advise was Yeliu, and Yeliu told him to proceed with the annexation of the southern song.

r's
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  Quote TMPikachu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 14:49

Being a Mongol ambassador really, really sucks. They always die.

being a citizen of the country which killed a mongol ambassador though, that sucks even more.

 

 

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  Quote Chono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2004 at 10:19

Originally posted by Tobodai

yup, its the triad of genious, Chinggis, Subotai, Yehlu Chutsai

The latter two were young enough to be his sons, they mostly served his sons and grandsons. On top of that, Subedei was a student of Jebe, who was probly more of a genius, and uighurs made most of the bureaucracy of the empire. The real triad of genius would look like this: (there could be two variations)

Temujin, Boghorchi, Zelme or Temujin, Khasar, Belgutei...

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  Quote Snafu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 00:36
Also Yeh-lu was more prominent under Ogedai than Genghis. Under Genghis he was just part of a large cohort of advisors. But under Ogedai he became more like a prime minister or Vizier.
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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2004 at 13:55
Wasn't he the guy who advised Temjin to not destroy cities to the ground for taxes? If that is the fact, then would it not have been better to have destroied the cities and make them into pastures. Because wouldn't it have been easier to control the people without cities as the Chinese and various Turkic tribes they occupied would have little possibilities in administrative resistance or in any matter to unify into a resistant force. And the Mongols lived without taxes before the conquests (this is just a guess) and therefore the steppe were the best area to administrate.
There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
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  Quote Evildoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 15:07

Destroy cities to the ground for taxes? I thought the Mongols wanted to destroy them to provide pastures for sheep and horses...

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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2004 at 00:06
Without the bureaucracy set up by Yeliu, the Mongol empire might not have lasted after CK's death. It would have been
like any tribal empire, in today gone tomorrow.
In this regard I would say that Yeliu is the Otto Von Bismarck of the Mongol empire.

r's
Clive
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  Quote Chono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2004 at 10:31
Well, there is no evidence that Elui Chutsai set up the bureaucracy. The uighurs were much more instrumental in that. And the empire pretty much desintegrated after Mngke's death, it was built around personalities after all, not a bureaucracy.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2004 at 14:56
And the eternal blue sky,ofcourse.
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  Quote Chono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2004 at 15:04
Oh yes, we're all under it's might.
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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2004 at 23:42
Yeliu Chu Tsai was highly recommended by the Uighur Tatatongga, and both worked very well in building up the
administrative organ of the mongol empire that laid the very foundations for it's growth.
Chinkai, and Uighur , was one of Yeliu's proteges and was even recommended by Yeliu to be prime minister, Chinkai still sought advise and counsel from Yeliu on most issues.
Tatatongga acknowledged Yeliu's superior skills in administrative managment and planning, and was even willing to subordinate himself to Yeliu.
It was Yeliu's advise first to CK and later to Ogodei to make Karakorum a city with an administrative center to better administer the empire.
Correct me if I am wrong here.
Clive
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  Quote racarrera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2015 at 02:33
It's great to see a forum where Yeh-lu Chu-tsai is referenced.  Is there any biographical works or other books in English where he is mentioned?  I'm frankly surprised there isn't a serious study of his life available in English.
Regards,

Rudy
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2015 at 11:06
Unfortunately, the post you answered is 11 years old. The folks your asking questions of haven't been around for a long time.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2016 at 18:18
My old pard is correct...yet I would offer you this...in order to study him further seek him out in the context of 'who' he served.

And therein lies a number of excellent regional and time related historians and authors: Jerry Bently-Jack Weathford and John Man.

They addressed him and in English...whether a better bio will be done on this diplomatic master remains to be seen.

Now I'm tired..so good luck...good hunting.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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