Where did the Aryans come from?

Earth

Originally posted by Maju Central Asia. But I would correct all your terminology, starting by the grammar: Where came from the Aryans? is a rather meaningless sentence in English. I'm sure you mean Where did the Aryans come from? Am I right? Then Aryans is a vague and not much used term nowadays. As I have commented in other topics it only makes sense in the context of Eastern Indo-Europeans or, what is the same, Indo-Iranians. No people in Europe or Asia Minor has ever called themselves Aryans, with the awful exception of Nazi Germany. So the term Aryans doesn't make sense in regard to Western Indo-Europeans (or IE Europeans) nor when talking of the IEs of separate branches as Hittites, Armenians or Albanians. So I suggest you to refine a little more your question to Where did Indo-Europeans come from? Yet, this would be a redundant topic, as there are two (at least) already dealing with the issue: Phenotype of ancient Indo-Europeans Proto Indo-European You can find many diferent opinions on the issue in these topics.

You wrong and completly confused. Indo-european and aryan are two different notions:

IE is a new notion based on commun language.

Aryan is refered to an old ethnicity who created Vedas in India and Zoroastrism in Iran.

Nobody can be sure that aryans are at the origin of IE language...

According all books which I read until now, All of them claim us as Central Asian.

Well "Aryan" tribes so to speak, such as the Alans, Sarmatians and Scythians moved into Europe and assimilated into the local populations or were absorbed by by newcomers such as Slavs in the Balkans and Tatars/Turks in modern Ukraine/Russia.  The Persians, Medians et al were indigenous to Asia having formed, according to most scholars, in the Central Asia region in what is present day Afghanistan/Tajikistan or possibly further to the North.

Before the large scale migrations into Western Iran, the Persians/Medians et al were pastoral nomads who ranged from modern Turkmenistan to Tajikistan and their culture was either adopted by or was similar to that of the Turkic tribes further east.

Originally posted by DayI didnt they once moved to europe and then did come-back to the current region? Correct if im wrong

There are diferent theories and chronologies. But, according to what I think I know, they invaded Eastern Europe in two consecutive periods but never abandoning Central Asia, until the supposed Turkic invasions.

According to my own chronology, IEs are original from Central Asia (Jamnaja Kultura, early kurgans) and moved to Eastern Europe (Ukraine, southern Russia) c. 3500 BCE, where they sow a clear mixture with the natives before starting further expansion waves in the following centuries. This is known as Serednij-Stog II complex, and is probably at the origin of Western IEs.

Then, c. 3000, after the first invasions in areas of Central Europe and the Balcans, the area of Eastern Europe is absorbed by the main IE culture (Jamnaja, Eastern IEs) for several centuries. Then, c. 2500, the Catacombs Culture (probably proto-Cymmerians, another offspring from Jamnaja) take over and Jamnaja is restricted again to east of the Volga.

Later on, c. 1600, two closely related cultures appear from this Jamnaja Kultura:

• Andronovo: at the origin of Indo-Iranians
  
• Wooden Chambers: at the origin of Scythians, later moved westward.

Near the end of the milennium groups from the Mongolian area (that I assume maybe wrongly to be early Turks) take over the Central Asian region displacing Eastern IEs westward and southwards.

Take please this chronology with a grain of salt because I've seen other a little diferent, specially giving suspicious too early dates for the western IE migrations. I'm also not sure if I have swapped the Andronovo and Wooden Chambers roles (I think not but I'm writing on my own notes, which can have errors).

And then you also have those that place the origin of IEs in Eastern Europe or even in Anatolia at the start of the Neolithic.

As far as I know Andronovo and Wooden Chambers are clearly precursors of Indo-Iranians and Scythians. Yet, my own study has been focused in European Prehistory rather than in Asian one, so I can't say for sure.

I've been checking Wikipedia (whatever they say it is often a good first hand resource) and it seems there is very little doubt that andronovo were Indo-Iranians. Anyhow check it for yourself:

• Andronovo culture
• Indo-Iranians
  
• Proto-Indo-Europeans

Map of Andronovo culture, showing the area of formation in dark red and the area of first spike-wheeled chariots in magenta (from Wikipedia)


Schematic map of overall IE expansion, following the theory that places their original homeland in Eastern Europe. As I said before, I am of the opinion that the original homeland is actually east of the Volga river and that Southern Russia was basically of another (native) background (but I can be wrong).

Basically my problem is with the transition from a native Neolithicied culture (Dniepr-Don) to Jamnaja, which is, in my understanding clearly caused by infiltration (maybe invasion) of eastern groups, which were actually at the origin of Jamnaya and caused the transitional Western IE group of Serednij-Stog II.

In any case, wether Central Asia or Southern Russia, they are clearly steppary in origin. A role that will be later assumed by Turk and Mongol peoples.

Edit: I've been just reading the Talk page of PIE article in Wikipedia and it seems that the most knowledgeable are rather strongly against Renfrew's Anatolian theory and also critic rather strongly the map I posted above as "not a good model". It's approximative though.


Edited by Maju

As far as I know Andronovo and Wooden Chambers are clearly precursors of Indo-Iranians and Scythians.

This seems to be changing in regards to Wooden Chambers (otherwise better known as either Timber Grave, Srubna, or Srubnaya Culture).  Russian archaeologists are now saying that the origin of Scythian Culture (at least the nomadic component) lays further east.  In the 9th century BC, the region of the Srubnaya Culture became nomadic when easterners invaded the region.  On the whole we don't know where this eastern component came from, but we can see that there was a "dynamic interaction" between late Andronovo and Karasuk cultures which reached the Pontic region.  The Scythian culture of the Pontic steppe is now seen as the result of the mix of local eastern Pontic formerly sedentary populations and central Asian nomadic populations.

Also, the overlapping zone between the Timber-Grave and Andronovo Cultures resulted in the formation of the western component of the Sarmatians, the Sauromatians, themselves. 

(source:  Nomads of the Eurasian Steppes in the Early Iron Age, by Davis-Kimball, Bashilov, and Yablonsky, editors.)

interesting topic...

I have heard soo much from iranians talkin about being aryan thus germans.

and it makes one wonder, if they share the same bloodline, why there is soo much difference, interms of language, culture, apperance...so on and so forth.

I just can't find anythin in today's Iran & Germany to LINK them up somehow.

Arpad,

First you said because 1000s of years have passed and due to climate differences, your apperance has changed. and then you go on to say "northern iran has many blondes" and your personal story of your friend...I just dont get it....nevermind...

what about the following...

you did not mention anythin about language, culture and custom & traditions.

Can you show me any similiarities?

Who wrote that? Hooked noses are unique to Turco-Azeris? I have a hooked nose! Does that mean I am Turco Azeri? Are you on crack?  Why are you so deperate to prove Persians are white?

This thread is on the origins of Aryans, not what they may have looked like.

You might want to look at Sassanid coins and Hakhamanesh reliefs, seems they had a few with hooked noses, they must therefore have been Turco-Azeris.  And you might want to note that Northern European features crop up randomly in light skinned Northern and Western populations.

And why don't you read Xenophon's description of Cyrus the Great's features?  Might surprise you.