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Visigothic Spain
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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Visigothic Spain
    Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 16:07
Originally posted by Aragones

Your welcome Maju.
I see you are using the old nomenclature of dna haplogroups.The new and most updated studies about european groups are called, R1b, R1a, I, your neolithic J, J2, E3b...all this groups cover about 95% of all europeans.


I know. It's just to simplify, as the older nomenclature is better know (because several maps with cakes have been posted in this forum: it's very visual). Basically we can say that +/- R1a is Hg1 (plus Hg22), I is Hg2 and R1b is Hg3 (this one matches exactly). These three are the most important ones and are thought to have spread mostly in Paleolithic times.

Cavalli-Sforza got totally debunked of most of his studies done circa 1990, by Dr. Sykes.


I'm not sure that is the case. What has been reviewed, as far as I know, is the hypothesis of most of the genetic material entering Europe with the Neolitic. Now it seems it was mostly a Paleolitic process, what leaves the theories of mass migrations in rags.

Going back to your gothic quimera (in which I agree mostly on everything you have posted).It is very preliminary but nevertheless suggests that they should belong to either R1a or I... not r1b, which reaches it's peak west of Europe and declines in numbers East, and partially North, where the I haplogroup is quite large.


It's the other way around: R1b is (exactly) Hg3 (Eastern European) and R1a is (approximately) Hg1+Hg22 (Western). See the topic How to read a genetic map and, more specifically the following graphic of Arizona University: http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/nomenclature_system/fig1.html

Anyhow R1a and R1b are closely related, while I (approx. Hg2) is a diferent  branch.

For now you are right, there is no way we can tell, but I was talking about the future studies of populations, especially  the National Genographic Project, looks very promising. Please do not turn down future discoveries, it's not a sign of enlightenment.
Best regards,
Aragones


The main problem with Goths (and others) is that we actually have no idea on which were their specific lineages or the proportion of their haplogroups. If you take as reference Sweden, Poland or Rumania, you have very diferent cakes, though it seems quite obvious that Hg3/R1b must have been important.

But, as I said before those traces of Hg3 found in Iberia and other Western areas can well have come with many other peoples. Hard to say.

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Posts: 0 		  Quote Aragones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 07:02
Your welcome Maju.
I see you are using the old nomenclature of dna haplogroups.The new and most updated studies about european groups are called, R1b, R1a, I, your neolithic J, J2, E3b...all this groups cover about 95% of all europeans.Cavalli-Sforza got totally debunked of most of his studies done circa 1990, by Dr. Sykes.
Going back to your gothic quimera (in which I agree mostly on everything you have posted).It is very preliminary but nevertheless suggests that they should belong to either R1a or I... not r1b, which reaches it's peak west of Europe and declines in numbers East, and partially North, where the I haplogroup is quite large.

For now you are right, there is no way we can tell, but I was talking about the future studies of populations, especially  the National Genographic Project, looks very promising. Please do not turn down future discoveries, it's not a sign of enlightenment.
Best regards,
Aragones
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 12:17
Originally posted by Aragones

Thank you all, I have enjoyed inmensely your discussion about the Goths, Franks, Basques, Romans, Catalans etc... very interesesting.
New dna studies will bring light into the real interaction of people and ideas of the south of what is now France and the north of what is now Spain.


Not actually. Most of DNA is of Paleolithic origin and, while other migrations may have moved a few pieces around, there haven't been any major migrations affecting Iberia. The most important one would be the Neolithic Mediterranean one that brought most of the Mediterranean genotype to the peninsula (anyhow it's only about 15%, though a small part of it could have come during the Muslim period too). No other migration seems truly significant, except maybe some (small) colonization by "Franks" (Occitans) in the Middle Ages, which would be very hard to distinguish from the original genotype. The 3% of Hg3 is rather odd but can account for several sources: Celtic migrations in the Bronze and Iron ages, Jewish and Arab inmigration, the Goths and other Germanic tribes and even Slavic slaves imported by Muslim states.

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Posts: 0 		  Quote Aragones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 11:52
Thank you all, I have enjoyed inmensely your discussion about the Goths, Franks, Basques, Romans, Catalans etc... very interesesting.
New dna studies will bring light into the real interaction of people and ideas of the south of what is now France and the north of what is now Spain.
Time is just another dimension.
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Pelayo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2005 at 14:22
I suggest you read the source I have given you and you may change your perspective.
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2005 at 13:48
Hg2 is old as Europe. It is no reliable marker of anything. All other European Y haplogroups derive from it, so it can't be considered but in relation (proportion) with the others. See my recently started topic How to read a genetic map.

Only Hg3 could be a marker for such migration, as Hg3 is very rare in Western Europe, Spain included and it is quite common in Eastern, Central and Northern Europe.

You can't explain anything with Hg2. It is boundant not just in Gotland (a region that could or could not be related to the origins of Goths, this is disputed) but in Sardinia (a country never populated by Germans), the Balcans, Ukraine and, in Western Europe, in England and France. The proportion of Hg2 in Spain is just about double than among Basques.

Instead Hg3 is rather strong in all the regions were Goths settled: Poland (60%), Ukraine (30%) and Rumania (20%). It's also strong in Gotland (15%).

Considering the Gotland proportion, you would need a relative proportion of Hg6 (8%), that would be a 1,5% in Spain. No Hg6 has been detected in the Spanish samples at all. Hg6 is also solidly present in Ukraine (where Ostrogoths used to dwell) but absent in Italy or fromer Yugoslavia, where they eventually ruled. It is also absent in the Romanian samples but there you could use Hg9, which would fit (but is more likely to have come with Arab, Greek and Roman colonists).

So if you want to aduce genetics, Hg3 is the only possible marker unless you have access to more specific data on sublineages. We are splitting hairs here but, anyhow, I have read repeatedly that the proportion of Goths was never larger than 5% and I strongly suspect that the half of the half.

Their genetic influence was irrelevant and only their ideologic influence can be taken seriously in account.

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Posts: 0 		  Quote Pelayo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2005 at 10:51

The Visigiths while certainly aristocrats, became settlers as Spain became their home. Aristocrats tend to forcibly reproduce with pre-existing lower classes.

 

After King Reccared converted the remnant to Catholocism in 589, intermarriage became legal and continued for over 120 years prior to the moorish invasion.

 

At 10% you are looking at somewhere between 100-150K, which is very plausible. (History of the Goths by Herwig Wolfram). I will concede that this number is debatable, but most sources I have come accross suggest something closer to 10%.

 

The Visigoths did not stay long in Dacia. Looking at Gotlander, the assumed origin, HG2 seems to be the predominate marker in this area.

 

Hg2 makes up a good 10-15% in the maps you have recently posted.

 

They ruled most of  the penninsula for 300 years, they settled regions that became crucial in the reconquest of spain.  This propogated their influence disproportionately as well!

I think you discount their influence genetically too lightly.

 

Clearly, it is a minority influence, but greater than 3%.
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2005 at 08:17
Visigoths weren't "settlers": they were aristocrats. True that they seem to have concentrated in some areas of the central plateau but precisely in regions that would eventually be the no-man's land between Muslims and Christians, so they probably migrated after the Muslim invasion anyhow.

The figures I've read are 5% the most. I suspect they would be much less. Just that they were well organized and were fierce warriors. 10% would mean hundreds of thousands. I don't think that's possible.

Also, all genetic studies show Iberia as a clearly Western European region with some significative Mediterranean input. If Goths would have come in significative numbers, that would be noticeable in the genetic map in the form of Northern or Eastern European genetic presence (they came almost directly from Dacia). Yet that is simply minimal and can also be attributed to other sources (Celts, Franks and even Vikings and modern population mobility).

Hg3 could be a relatively good marker for Eastern or Northern populations (males) coming but it is only slightly (3%) represented in Spain. It can't be only attributed to Goths in any case: other Germans, Celts (originally from southern Germany) and other random sources (Atlantic and Mediterranean contacts) can explain it very well.

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Posts: 0 		  Quote Pelayo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2005 at 00:33

I have read sources where the Visigothic numbers in spain were closer to 10-12%, but that will always be debatable.

 

The upper central meseta where they concentrated became a focal point not long after the start of the reconquest; therefore the influence in modern spain is greater than Maju suggest, imo. These settlers displaced much of their conquered neighbors to the south.

 

Linguistically, small but not insignificant. I agree with Maju in that politically, their most important legacy resides.
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 08:24
Well, I don't know about traditional Gascon laws but Basque law, also called Navarrese right is rather unique and developes from its own cultural traditions. As far as I know this law still applies partly in the southern Basque country but, as long as Navarre was autonomous in the north too, it did apply to the Navarrese territories as well, probably Bearne included. I'm not knowledgeable but guess that other Basque and possibly Gascon autonomous provinces in France also had that kind of autoctonous law.

Regarding the other areas (northern Aquitaine, Occitania) you're probably right in Roman being the strongest influence, specially in law. I don't think that French (Frankish) influence is so strong before the Albigensian Crusade and the Hundred Years' War. It seems like they had many dificulties to consolidate that nominal domination before. And the full replacement would only happen with the Jacobine centralization of the French Revolution (a process that found resistences and federalist alternatives in some parts of the south particularly).

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Posts: 760 		  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 06:50
I would say, from a social and cultural point of view, the Romans and French were the most important then... before even the original Aquitanians, just looking at our laws and language is already a big hint.
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 06:15
I a later period they were. But it is irrelevant for the overall developement of the Aquitanies before that late Medieval phase. They are meaningless about the origins of the socio-political structure of the region, though they get a very important role in the late Medieval phase, due to their inheritance from Eleanor.

Anyhow I'm more interested in sociology, economy, etc. than in dynasties and legendary characters.

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Posts: 760 		  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 20:20
Well, if you want to exclude it, so be it. But I consider it's relevant to our history.
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 19:49
I meant the monologue thing only about the Plantagenets, a subject that, truly, doesn't catch my attention. 

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Posts: 760 		  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 17:34
Originally posted by Maju

Yes. Next time, I will try to open new topics as the discussion falls far from the original one. For instance I could haveopened a topic on Gascony, another on Occitania and finally one of the Plantagenets for Exarchus to monologue about them. 


It takes two to argue . Hardly a monologue then.... I assume I could look for dictionnaries and post the definition of monologue and prove you wrong with examples from this thread though.... .
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Posts: 1835 		  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 17:14
I did learn quite a few things about your argument with Exarchus... like how to properly spell Occitan
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 05:48
Yes. Next time, I will try to open new topics as the discussion falls far from the original one. For instance I could haveopened a topic on Gascony, another on Occitania and finally one of the Plantagenets for Exarchus to monologue about them. 

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Posts: 1835 		  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 18:01
and Thank you for getting back on the topic... you lost me a long time ago Maju in your duel with Exarchus
The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 16:05
Thanks for re-focusing the topic, El Cid. I'd say that Visigothic influence is minor (as I stated before) but on a few things:
  • They serve as ideological precendent for the concept of Spain, this reference is important in the northern Spanish states of Leon and Catalonia, specially in the first one.
  • They left a large bunch of Visigothic or Gothicied aristocrats on both sides of the Pyrenees (except for the Basque areas).
Their eventual creation of the first ever Spanish state is a precedent that we should not underweight. True that originally their domain was wider than the peninsula but eventually the Franks corrected that to their favor.

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Posts: 66 		  Quote El Cid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 15:16
The important thing is that Visigoths didn't influence a lot in Spanish culture, and didn't do it in the language either. they only introduced a few words like "guerra", war; "burgos", city, castle and others. What do you think?
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