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Onggirat(Hongirat) Clan

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Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai View Drop Down
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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Onggirat(Hongirat) Clan
    Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 11:20

Onggirats was one of the oldest Mongol clans, Chinggis Khaan's mother and his wife Borte just came from this clan. After Chinggis Khaan established his empire, Onggirats immigrated to different area following their leaders.

The largest part of the Onggirat clan immigrated to the south where was populated by the Khitans at that time.  They assimilated the Khitans into their group and became the most powerful tribe in South-eastern Mongolia. but, they were eventually absorbed by their northern neighbor tribes such as the Urianghai during the time of northern Yuan dynasty. Those Onggirats who stayed in their original homeland, the lower Halha river valley and Hulunbuir steppe, became one of 5 south Halha clans, who also immigrated to the south later. Tumed Mongols ever comprised a Onggirat clan too, but we have no a single Onggirat clan among the present-day Mongols today.

I heard that Kazakhs and other central asia Turkic nations have Onggirat(Hongirat) tribes, anyone could provide us some details about them here?

 

 



Edited by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
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Feramez View Drop Down
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  Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 01:00
Good post, I never heard of this tribe.  It would be very nice if this tribe still does exist, it must be very great and proud to be from the same tribe Cengiz Hans mother and wife were from.
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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 03:37

Onggirats were famous for their beautiful women among the Mongols, not only Chinggis Khaan's mother and his first queen are Onggirats,  there were also many Onggirat women as Yuan emperor's queen.

I didn't know if there were Onggirats among Azer tribes, but the Onggirats should have immigrated to central asia and other area following Chagatai Khaan, Batu Khaan and others, so, I'm waiting for Kazakh or Uzbek friends who could enlighten us here.

 

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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 04:59

I read those about Lithuania Tatars in another thread just now, I'm quite surpised to see so many familiar tribenames among Tatar people. My family was originated from Uushun clan, by the way.

I quote the post here:

Apart from such allied Tatars, many Tatars also served in the Polish army. this was especially so in Lithuania, where Grand Duke Witold had settled large numbers of Tatars at the end of the 14th century - principally around Wilno - and allowed them to intermarry with the local population. In the 16th century there were about 200,000 Tatars in Lithuania, and although they still worshipped Allah they now spoke only Byelorussian or Polish. The main Lithuanian Tatar tribes were the Uyshun, Naiman, Jalair, Kongret and Bahrin, as well as the tribal aristocracy - the Uhlans.

 

 

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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 00:11
My wife, who is a Kharachin , told me that the big
portion of the Onggirats were absorbed into the Horqin
tribe whose banner is in the Tongliao region of Inner Mongolia. Empress Xiaoguang, grandmother of Kangxi
was Horqin. The Horqin are direct descendants of Qinggis
brother Khasar.

r's
Clive
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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 09:02

South-eastern Mongolia was populated by the Khitans and a small part of Jurchens before Mongolia conquered Altan Khanate(Jurchen empire), then Onggirats and other 4 Mongol tribes(Jalair, Uulu, Mongru and Ilykz)migrated there and absorbed those former inhabitants of Khitans and others during the time of the great Yuan Khanate. Onggirats' northern neighbours, who were Urianghai tribe and other 2 tribes Ongnut and Uqiyet, rised to power gradually during northern Yuan dynasty, migrated into the land ruled by Onggirats and other 4 tribes and, eventually absorded all of 5 Onggirat tribes. However, the 3 Urianghai tribes also couldn't maintain their power in South-eastern Mongolia. Most of Ongnuts and Uqiyets were absorbed by Chahars(the tribe directly ruled by the great Khan), 5 South Halha and Horchin, while most of Urianghai were absorbed by Yungsiyebu-Kharchin and Tumed-Mongulchin tribes in the end. So, you can say 3 Urianghai tribes absorbed 5 Onggirat tribes, then Horchins and others absorbed 3 Urianghai tribes.

I hope it's not too complex to understand. A list of the tribes in south-eastern Mongolia during the different times.

1) Eastern Huns, the eastern neighbors of Xiong-nu(Western Huns)

2) Xianbei tribes, such as Yuwen and Murong. (Note: Yunwen was a mixed tribes of Xiongnu and Xianbei)

3) Khitans and Kumusin(the descendants of Yunwen Xianbei according the opinions of many scholars) and a small part of the Jurchens.

4) Mongol tribes:

    5 Onggirat(Ongirat, Jalair, Uulu, Mongru and Ilykz)

    3 Urianghai(Urianghai, Ongnut and Uqiyet)

    the tribes from Mongols' left(east) wing: Chahar, Horchin, 5 South Halha; and the tribes from Mongols' right(west) wing: Kharchin, Tumed, Mongulchin.

Today, Horchins and Kharchins are the largest Mongolian population in the south-eastern Mongolia (or the eastern part of Inner Mongolia), btw.

 



Edited by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 09:11
Nice info.
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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 09:29
A Kazakh friend from Xinjiang or E.Turkistan, told me that Qongirat(Onggirat) is a tribe of Kazakh's middle horde, there're less the Qongirats in E.Turkistan except a country named Chabuchar. and it seems that Qongirat Kazakhs get a more apparent European feature then other Kazakh people, anyone could provide us some pictures from this tribe? I know most Kazakhs of E.Turkish are the descendants of Naimans and Keriets, who have no any difference compared to the Mongols by their lookings.
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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 01:07
Why are there more Mongols in Inner Mongolia than the
Republic of Mongolia?

r's
Clive
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 01:55
Originally posted by cliveersknell

Why are there more Mongols in Inner Mongolia than the
Republic of Mongolia?

r's
Clive


How is that relavant?
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  Quote Chingis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 01:56
Maybe because chinese authorities sent many chinese to inner mongolia, and now there are many Chinezed inner mongolians who living there
The 800th Anniversary of the Great Mongolian State

Great Mongolian State (1206-2006 >>>>>
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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 06:56

A full Tribe List Of Mongolia During Northern Yuan Dynasty:

 

1) Eastern Mongolians

West(right) wing: Yungsiyebu-Kharchin Tumen, Mongulchin-Tumed Tumen, Ordos Tumen.

East(left) wing: Chahar Tumen, Halha Tumen, Urianghai Tumen(a different branch of the Urianghai). Horchin Tumen.

3 Urianghai Tribes: Urianghai, Ongut, Uqiyet.

 

2) Western Mongolians, known as 4 Oirad:

Choros(Dzungar), Dorbod, Turgod, Khoshod. and Buryats in Siberia.

 

Tumen = 10,000 families.

Today's Northern Mongolians are the descendants of 7 northern clans of Halha Tumen, and also absorbed many people from Urianghai tumen and Oirad Mongols. While, today's Mongolians living in China, are the descendants of the rest: most of eastern Mongolians(including 5 southern Halha tribes), and most of 4 Oirad tribes and all of 3 Urianghai tribes.

 

The present population of Mongolians in China are only twice than Mongolia's population, so you can imagine what happened to them during Manchu conquest and China's rule. Halha Mongols hadn't been the largest Mongol tribe during northern Yuan dynasty, but they are today and they are the only Mongolians who got their own nation-state in this world.

 

 



Edited by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 07:01

So, I have to say the Mongolians, as a whole, had a very sad history since Manchu conquest.  

 

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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 00:19
Inner Mongolia has more than 5 million Mongols, the whole of
China including Inner mongolia has 7 to 8 million mongols
more than 2x the population of the Republic of Mongolia.
I personally think the Repu. of Mongolia will not last.
See for urself what China is doing there as we speak.

r's
Clive
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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 00:23
A song that will drive All Mongols to tears, my wife
especially.
" My Father , the grassland, my Mother the River"

r's
Clive
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 00:47
Originally posted by cliveersknell

Inner Mongolia has more than 5 million Mongols, the whole of
China including Inner mongolia has 7 to 8 million mongols
more than 2x the population of the Republic of Mongolia.
I personally think the Repu. of Mongolia will not last.
See for urself what China is doing there as we speak.

r's
Clive


This is a thread about the Onggirat clan, not about whether the ROM will be taken over by the PRC as you seem to be suggesting.  This thread wasn't at all politically oriented until you started posting.  Please stay on topic.

On a more personal note:  I'm also a bit sick of you continually referring to your wife as if she gives you some sort of infalliable legitimacy that the rest of us arn't allowed to question.


Edited by Gubook Janggoon
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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 09:07
Clive, there is only Inner Mongolia/Mongolian which probably will not last for 100 years or less, even as a self-ruled territory/nation within china. To see your own family, the elements from your Mongolian lady's side are disappearing so fast.  
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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 09:13

Originally posted by cliveersknell

Inner Mongolia has more than 5 million Mongols, the whole of
China including Inner mongolia has 7 to 8 million mongols
more than 2x the population of the Republic of Mongolia.
I personally think the Repu. of Mongolia will not last.
See for urself what China is doing there as we speak.

r's
Clive

 

Did you read my post about Inner/Southern Mongolians? The population of Southern Mongolians should be far larger than Northern Mongolians, but they aren't today because of being ruled by Manchus, then by Chinese.  

If the descendants of 7 northern clans of Halha Tuman can reach to 2 million today, then the descendants of 5 sorthern clans of Halha tumen living in Inner Mongolia, should achieve it too, but how many are they today? Tumed tumen, Chahar tumen, Orods Tumen, Kharchin Tumen, Horchin Tumen, 4 Oirads, all of them should have a similar population compared to today's Halha(Mongolia's people), but how many are they today? Don't tell us Inner Mongolia has a larger Mongolian population than Mongolia. Mongolian's population in Inner Mongolia should reach to 20 million or more, but they are replaced by Chinese.

 



Edited by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
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  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2005 at 20:26
The so-called Ongirrat, Ungirrat, Qongirrat etc.  are Kazakh Qongyrat - and they have no relation to the modern Khalkha-Mongols. They were Turkic speaking tribe in 12-13th centuries, and they are Turkic-speaking tribe within modern Kazakhs today as well. 
The same is valid for Kereits (or Kereis), Naimans, Jalairs, Onguts (now Uak), and of course, Kypchaks.
(Read Paul Ratchnevski "Genghis Khan - His Life and Legacy", for example, or Rene Grousset "Empire of the Steppes").
They are all main parts of the Kazakh Middle Horde (or Orta Zhuz). See www.elim.kz
  


Edited by Akskl
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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2005 at 23:21

Originally posted by Akskl

The so-called Ongirrat, Ungirrat, Qongirrat etc.  are Kazakh Qongyrat - and they have no relation to the modern Khalkha-Mongols. They were Turkic speaking tribe in 12-13th centuries, and they are Turkic-speaking tribe within modern Kazakhs today as well. 
The same is valid for Kereits (or Kereis), Naimans, Jalairs, Onguts (now Uak), and of course, Kypchaks.
(Read Paul Ratchnevski "Genghis Khan - His Life and Legacy", for example, or Rene Grousset "Empire of the Steppes").
They are all main parts of the Kazakh Middle Horde (or Orta Zhuz). See www.elim.kz
  

Akskl, I didn't say Halha Mongol's Onggirat tribe flee to Kazakhstan to be Kazakh's Qongirats. The Onggirats were a large group of the ancient Mongolica nomads before Mongol or Kazakh as a nation appeared in the history. Kazakh's Qongirat was a nice sample for those Turkified Mongol tribes among the Kazakhs, while Uzbek's Barlas, a tribe which Timurlenk was originated from, was another sample among the Uzbeks. On the other hand, those tribes you mentioned above, such as Keriet, Naiman, Ongud, Kipchak, are also the Mongolized Turkic groups among the modern Mongolians. Despite their Mongolica or Turkic origins, they were all very ancient tribes before Mongol nation, Kazakh nation, or other Turkic nations appeared in the history.

Thank for your link, btw.

www.elim.kz I try for several times, but I don't know why i can't enter this site yet, could anyone paste the content of this site here for me? thanks.

 



Edited by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
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