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Onggirat(Hongirat) Clan
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alish View Drop Down
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Posts: 17 		  Quote alish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Onggirat(Hongirat) Clan
    Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 16:48
Originally posted by Akskl

My cousines are Qongyrats, my brother-in-law, my nephews and my grandmother are Genghis-Khanites, my best friend is Naiman, I know  several Kereis. And they are all Kazakhs. 
Khalkha-Mongols have about 600 small tribes - and of course within them you can find tiny tribes with the famous names.
 
LOLLOLLOLLOL  one more time LOLLOLLOLLOL
Hey man, they were kazakhs who first settled in the United States.LOLLOL
No wonder -Gagarin was also kazakh...LOLLOLLOL....
Qung'irot..... Qung'ir - type of color, ot - horse.... shut up everybody, it is uzbek urug'....
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Posts: 17 		  Quote alish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2007 at 21:45
Dude,
You have got serious issues in terms of history.... I wonder if Alexander the Great was the direct ancestor of modern Kazakhs, if I should believe your opinion..... LOL
Timuchin was not turkic speaking....... Many turkic tribes (being mentioned in this forum) served in his armies..... some of them protected their lands from ChingisKhan.... take it real man..... Be more objective!
 
 
  
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Jalair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2007 at 19:50
Qonghirat is an Uzbek tribe/clan also. See links:

http://www.spongobongo.com/zy9949.htm

http://www.spongobongo.com/zy9948.htm

Also there is a village in Balkh province, Northern Afgahnistan called qongrat qishlaghi, they speak Uzbeki.
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Posts: 108 		  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 09:59

Khongirat, Kuralas/Gorlos, and Ikires had same roots like that I have told above according to today's Gorlos tribal legend. They probably had many sub-clans such as the Olhonud. These 3 tribes were categorized as the Darlenkin Mongols, however, Alan-goa, a lady from the Kuralas(Gorlos), were the grandmother of all of the Nirun Mongols.

Alan-goa and her sons, the pictures from a official site of Gorlos Banner.

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Posts: 58 		  Quote NCAA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 01:29
My mother's family name is Olhonud, which is mentioned on The Secret History as Oelun's belonging tribe. My understanding is Olhonud is a sub-clan in Onggirat clan, of which both Oelun and Borte came from.


Edited by NCAA
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Posts: 0 		  Quote kuralas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 15:05
Please read (in Russian)
http://bekd.land.ru/rashidaddin/index.html
There who is written about XII-XIII C. Mongols

Niruns:

Khiyat (now in Kazakh and Uzbek*)
Katakin (now in Kazakh and Uzbek)
Saldjiut
Taidjiut
Hartakan
Sidjiut
Chinos (nukuz)
Nuyakin
Urut
Mangut (now in Noghay and Uzbek)
Durban (now in Uzbek)
Baarin (now in Noghay and Uzbek)
Barulas (now in Kazakh and Uzbek)
Hadarkin
Djuriyat
Budat
Duklat (now in Kazakh, about 2 mln)
Yisut (now in Kazakh)
Sukhan (now in Kazakh, about 0.3 mln)
Kyngkhiyat

Argunokon tribes (Darlekins): (now in Kazakh , New name "Arghyn", about 2 mln)


Nukuz
Uriyankat (now Urianhai - most turkic)
Kungirat (now in Kazakh 0,5 mln and Uzbek 1.0 mln)
Ikiras
Olkonut
Kuralas (now in Kazakh and Uzbek)
Eldjigin
Kunkulayut
Ortaut
Konkotan
Arulat (now in Uzbek)
Kilingut
Kundjin
Ushin
Sulduz
Ildurkun
Bayaut (now in Kazakh and Uzbek)
Kingit


"Nirun" mean in Kazakh it "Nur Ul" (son of a ray of light) or Nurilla's son
From her was born the majority of clans of the Kazakh Ulu Juz.

* Uzbek - nomadic (no Sart) Uzbek

P.S. BekD my lost nic.
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Posts: 28 		  Quote SaikhaNBayar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 06:56

Yes , Borte khatan(queen)`s father Dai Setsen were powerful and popular person in Hongirad clan. Dai setsen once helped Chingis khan, revealing that Hongirad clan and tatars were planning to kill him.

Originally posted by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai

not only Chinggis Khaan's mother and his first queen are Onggirats

Its true that Borte queen was Hongirad, but in my view, Chingis khaan`s mother Oelun was not directly from Hongirad, as she was from Olhonud clan which was very close(almost same, well almost) to Hongirad clan.

And i found this:

There were 2 powerful tribes along with 68 others that were making Mongol tribe. One is Darligin , and other is Nirun (later Ju-Jan).
19 clans were making Nirun (Ju-Jan):
- 1. Hatangin
- 2. Saljiut
- 3. Taichud ( Ambagai khan and his son Targudai Hiriltug is from this clan)
- 4. Hartahan
- 5. Sejigud
- 6. Chonos
- 7. Noyahan
- 8. Uruchud (urud)
- 9. Mangud
- 10. Dorbed
- 11. Baarin
- 12. Barulas
- 13. Hadarhan
- 14. Jadaran (temujin`s old friend Jamukh is from this clan)
- 15. Botagad
- 16. Duklad
- 17. Iisut (besud)
- 18. Sukhan
- 19. Kuchgiyat

And 18 clans were making Darligin tribe:

- 1. Nukus (nugus)
- 2. Uriangkhan (Urianhai)
- 3. Hongirad (hongirat) (Borte ujin is from this clan)
- 4. Ihires
- 5. Olhonud (Oelun mother is from this clan)
- 6. Gorlos
- 7. Iljigan
- 8. Haranud (Kharanud)
- 9. Hongilachud (Khongilachud)
- 10. Honhotan (khonhotan)
- 11. Arulad
- 12. Hilingud
- 13. Kunjim
- 14. Gujin (ujin)
- 15. Suldusun
- 16. Ildurhin
- 17. Baychud
- 18. Ortachud (kingit)
The 800th Anniversary of the Great Mongolian State. 2006
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Posts: 0 		  Quote kuralas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 01:24
Kazakh Kuralases anything common have no with Khongirat's. At them different legends. A legend which you speak most likely belongs Khongirat's and same Argin's clans. Kuralas's are a mix kiyats and kuralases at Chagataic at court. The Chagataids together kiyat-kuralas's lived among Dulat's (nirun). Then gradually were a part of Dulat's. A legend present Kazakh Kuralas's very similar which are written in the Secret history of Mongols and in Rashid-ad-din's "Djami at Tawarich". About the same legends have Sary Uisuns (yisuts), Dulats and Suans (all niruns-Duklat, Dughlat, Sukan).
Among Dulat's there are subclan "Chagai". Some representatives them count themselves Chagataid's lost right to dominate at creation Kazakh Horde in favour of Djuchid's.

P.S.I used materials kazakh languages sources.
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Posts: 108 		  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 09:20

In spite of the quarrel about Khongirat's Mongol or Turkish origins. I like to see many more informations about them and their descendants in Turkistan.

I have a question that, if the Gorlos(or Kuralas) were also recognized as a sub-tribe or cousin tribe of the Khongirats by the Kazakhs? There's a legend of the Gorlos/Khongirat/Ikilas about their origins in Mongolia. I didn't know if the Qongirat or Kuralas Kazakhs have the similar legend about their origins.

It said that, God's daughters turn to the swans and fly to a lake to have a bath there, but a large eagle catched the youngest one, at this time, a brave archer shoot that eagle down and save the little swan princess. The princess was very grateful and decided to marry this young archer. then, they had 3 sons, but God couldn't allow that an ordinary steppeman marry his belonged daughter, so he decided to catched this family to the heaven and executed the man and his sons, however, the queen couldn't see his grandsons were executed, She send them back to the steppe carrying them with a golden basin. When the 3 boys rise up, they became the ancestors of the 3 tribes: Khongirat, Ikilas and Gorlos.

I noticed that forum kyrgyz.ru/, provided by Kuralas, there're also some discussions about the Qongirats, I find a online translator tool to help me read those posts in Russian, it seems they also mentioned the swan ancestor of the Qongirats.

 

 



Edited by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
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Posts: 0 		  Quote kuralas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 14:11
At first, I'm not mongol. And sorry about your country. At last I don't think that soviets tested atom boms in your country because you kazakhs are mongols.

I think and sure mongols time of Chengis Han were turkic speaking. Name "Mongol" was uniting name of Turkic speaking clans. These Turkic clans headed Chengis khan wished to create "The eternal state" the Mongol with sense "Ma'ngi el".

Genghis' Stone is in Hermitage Museum of St.Petersburg. The script is on mongolian language. Guyuk Khan's letter and the seal sent to Pope was on mongolian language

We consider their good faked documents. It was result the European colonial policy against Asiatic dynasties.
For example: Guyuk Khan's letter has appeared in days of when KGB were headed Dzerjinskiy (Pole). By the way this the letter was found by Polish monk Karalevsky when China has grasped country "Halha and Bargu". Coincidence?

2) There were also a larger part of the Khongirats among other Mongol tribes. For example, the Khongirats was one of 12 Tumed tribes, The Gorlos, a branch of the Khongirats, was one of the Horchin tribes. And, the largest part of the Qongirats, in fact, should be the Khongirat Tumen(10,000 families) in the today's South-eastern Inner Mongolia during the great Yuan dynasty, who was absorbed by the Urianghai and others later.


Each today's kazakh as well as Mongols of times Chengis khan know own clans. In Secret history and in Rashid ad din's book (Djammi-at-tawarich) are written about modern really existing Kazakh tribes.

Kuralas (gorlos) is really existing kazakh clan. One of 92 Kazakh-Uzbek tribe (clan) since XIY-XV centuries.
See http://www.kyrgyz.ru/?page=100
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Posts: 132 		  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 12:29

166.     Erimbetov, Myltyqbai Mamytuly, ,  Qongyrat shezhiresi zhane oghan qatysty anggimeler: Urany - "Alatau"; tangbasy - "Bosagha" [Qongyrat genealogy...], in Kazakh, Almaty, Zhalyn, 1993, 136 pp., PB, print-run: 50000, ISBN5-610-01169-8  SUBJECT(S)/KEYWORD(S): Anthropology; History         US$16.15

http://www.meabooks.com/html/kazakhstan.HTM

301.     Erimbetov, Myltyqbai Mamytuly, ,  Qongyrat shezhiresi zhane oghan qatysty anggimeler: Urany - "Alatau"; tangbasy - "Bosagha" [Qongyrat genealogy...], in Kazakh, Almaty, Zhalyn, 1993, 136 pp., PB, print-run: 50000, ISBN5-610-01169-8  SUBJECT(S)/KEYWORD(S): Anthropology; History         US$7.8

http://www.globalserve.net/~eurasian/Kazakhstan/kazakhstan.h tml

 

Interesting paper about Kazakhs:

http://src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/sympo/98summer/pdf/uyama.pdf

ShEZHIRE AS IDEOLOGICAL INSTITUTE OF THE TRADITIONAL SOCIETY

http://www.elim.kz/eng/about.php.htm



Edited by Akskl
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Posts: 108 		  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 08:25

Originally posted by Akskl

My cousines are Qongyrats, my brother-in-law, my nephews and my grandmother are Genghis-Khanites, my best friend is Naiman, I know  several Kereis. And they are all Kazakhs. 
Khalkha-Mongols have about 600 small tribes - and of course within them you can find tiny tribes with the famous names.

Before we get a conclusion, it's better we can study from each other on those that you probably know less before. It's why I didn't get a conclusion that the modern Kazakhs are the Mongol's descendants because one of the largest Kazakh tribe Qongirat were Mongolian originated. On the other hand, I also hope you could learn some about the later history of the Mongols after Chinggis Khaan, before you get your conclusions.

1) The Khongirat tribe was one of 5 southern Halha tribes, but not one of "600 small tribes" stated by you above. It's a very large part for the Halha's tribal elements. Halha was originally a common name for those tribes who live near to the Halha river, It's not an unknown group replaced those former tribes such as the Khongirats, the Naimans, the Keriets, etc. as you imagine. Those ancient tribes which are familiar for you, live together near to Halha river, and adopted this new common tribename Halha for all of them.  

2) There were also a larger part of the Khongirats among other Mongol tribes. For example, the Khongirats was one of 12 Tumed tribes, The Gorlos, a branch of the Khongirats, was one of the Horchin tribes. And, the largest part of the Qongirats, in fact, should be the Khongirat Tumen(10,000 families) in the today's South-eastern Inner Mongolia during the great Yuan dynasty, who was absorbed by the Urianghai and others later.

 



Edited by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
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Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 06:53

Originally posted by Anbalan

It might be. I am not either Mongol nor Turk. I don't care much.  It might be Mongols in Horde, but they were probably minority, because the land of the Horde is now populated by Turkic nations mostly. I have also read something telling Chingiz Khan was a Kazah. It might be also some panturkist propagandists have confused me.

You are right. In West Mongols occupied Turkestan, Kipchak steppe and Persia. And Mongols were minority. So they were absorbed for some hundred years  by turks and persian people.

The name "kazakh" stemmed from the 15-16th century. Genghis died in 1227.  So you can't say that he was a kazakh guy. But it is true that descendants of Jochi(Gengis' oldest son) ruled the latter kazakh tribes. Kazakhs are mostly descendants of kipchak turks, who were conquered by mongols.



Edited by blitz
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Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 06:44

Originally posted by Akskl

My cousines are Qongyrats, my brother-in-law, my nephews and my grandmother are Genghis-Khanites, my best friend is Naiman, I know  several Kereis. And they are all Kazakhs. 
Khalkha-Mongols have about 600 small tribes - and of course within them you can find tiny tribes with the famous names.

I wrote, in Mongolia there are people of Yellow-Kirgiz clan. They speak Mongolian as their mother language. But we can't conclude that the Kirgizs were Mongols.  I wrote also, there are some people of Asud(->Osyetin in Russia) clan, who were descendants of Alans. But we can't coclude that Alans were Mongols.

So there are people of mongol origin in Kazakhstan. But you can't say that the mongols of 13th century were kazakh-turks. It is absurd.  

And also there are many sources of that time that the ruling mongol khans used mongolian language on stone, on their seal, letter and in other documents(in Yuan, Ilkhanate and later in Mongolia since 1368).

How can I cocnlude that Genghis and their "Mongols" were turkic speaking guys? Is it a normal logic?



Edited by blitz
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Posts: 132 		  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 23:32
My cousines are Qongyrats, my brother-in-law, my nephews and my grandmother are Genghis-Khanites, my best friend is Naiman, I know  several Kereis. And they are all Kazakhs. 
Khalkha-Mongols have about 600 small tribes - and of course within them you can find tiny tribes with the famous names.


Edited by Akskl
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Posts: 58 		  Quote Anbalan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 16:56

Originally posted by blitz

Oh, again such sh-i-t.  Explain me, why there are many primary sources of 13th century on mongolian language, such as Guyuk Khan's letter to Pope, edicts of yuan dynasty, Letters of argun Khan to King of France etc...

It might be. I am not either Mongol nor Turk. I don't care much.  It might be Mongols in Horde, but they were probably minority, because the land of the Horde is now populated by Turkic nations mostly. I have also read something telling Chingiz Khan was a Kazah. It might be also some panturkist propagandists have confused me.
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If I wasn't interested in this topic I would have closed it by now. So for those who participate regularly in this discussion, do so with better respect for eachother. Too many weaky disguised swear words bother me.
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Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 13:45
Originally posted by Anbalan

Originally posted by Akskl

The so called "Mongols" of Genghis Khan were all Turkic speaking tribes and direct ancestors of the modern Kazakhs of Middle Horde (or Orta Zhuz). 
         

I think it is true. I have wondered why Nogai were Turkic, if they came as "mongols"? There are many words in Ossetic language adopted at the time of Golden Horde, but they are of Turkic origin, but there are almost none Mongolian.

Does anybody know which Turkic language has "kundursu" as type of yogurt?

Oh, again such sh-i-t.  Explain me, why there are many primary sources of 13th century on mongolian language, such as Guyuk Khan's letter to Pope, edicts of yuan dynasty, Letters of argun Khan to King of France etc...

In China there are a few chinese speakin russian minority. But you can't conclude that russians were chinese. It is kazakh-turkic absurd of an oxymoron.  

 
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Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 13:41

Originally posted by kuralas

Taichiuts have been destroyed.

Not at all.  Among Kalmyks too there are people of taichut.  among mongols there are also merkits.

 

Russia always helped you country, you have received more than 50 billion Soviet roubles within the Soviet period. You till now debt more than 30 billion.  And that we have received: more than 900 nuclear explosions, imitation starvation, emigration, russification, a virgin soil, a genocide. Because to us always revenged for the past.

Now we the independent country. Want or do not want we shall return  own history. Then we shall look "who are wrong".

At first, I'm not mongol.  And sorry about your country.  At last I don't think that soviets tested atom boms in your country because you kazakhs are mongols.  
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Posts: 58 		  Quote Anbalan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 12:36

Originally posted by Akskl

The so called "Mongols" of Genghis Khan were all Turkic speaking tribes and direct ancestors of the modern Kazakhs of Middle Horde (or Orta Zhuz). 
         

I think it is true. I have wondered why Nogai were Turkic, if they came as "mongols"? There are many words in Ossetic language adopted at the time of Golden Horde, but they are of Turkic origin, but there are almost none Mongolian.

Does anybody know which Turkic language has "kundursu" as type of yogurt?

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