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Overrated Battles

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  Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Overrated Battles
    Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 23:01

Thank u!!!

I think this is Stalingrad

Waterloo

Constantionopl 1453

Carrhae and etc.

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  Quote Texas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 00:41
Originally posted by Decebal

El Alamo is one of the greatest bits of propaganda in history. The battle itself only became famous because Davy Crockett died in it- an illiterate frontiersman who ran for the American congress and encouraged a personality cult of himself. This created a martyr out of him and the loss at Alamo made for a good rallying cry for the texans who later ambushed a part of the Mexican army, which suffered a few hundred casualties in that ulteroir battle. The Alamo battle itself was not very impressive either: about 150 Texans, the great majority of them of Mexican origin, holed up in an old mission and besieged by about 5000 Mexican troops. I believe that after 13 days, the mission was breached and Santa Anna gave the order for "no prisoners". It was nothing more than a skirmish really, but it was used for propaganda purposes later on.

As for the whole "Americans standing up against tyrrany thing", which the American media and then Hollywood created, it is also false. Most Texans in the battle were as I said, of Mexican origin. The main reason why they were fighting was because Mexico had abolished slavery to deal with the American immigration in Texas, and they wanted to gain an autonomy which would enable them to keep slaves. Then the Americans took this as a cry for freedom... Oh the irony!

okay lets see what facts are right and wrong in your post

1.  Davy Crockett was not formerly  educated but could read and write

2.   Davy Crockett not only run for congress but won several times

3.  Battle of San Jacinto ---------------1125 mexican soldiers and 783 Texans

630 mexicans died ---------------- the rest almost entirely taken prisoner--including the President of mexico  ---------Santa Anna

9 texans killed and roughly 30 wounded

4.  number of troops at the battle of The Alamo------------

183 Texans - give or take a couple

roughly 2400 mexicans in San Antonio and roughly 1800 involved int he final assualt

all Texans killed ---------------roughly 600 mexicans killed and wounded --or 1 in 3 in the assualts

5.  Texas Army at the alamo was made up of people from all over USA and Europe and Texas

with very very few of spanish surnames not saying Capt Sequin and his men followed a hero's path ----ps if i can provide an entire list of the defenders to prove my point

6.  The slave was very much a liberal view of why but lets examine that ------

birth place and homes of some the Alamo defenders before coming to TEXAS

COUNTRY OF BIRTH         & nbsp;         & nbsp; # of defenders from that country

England          ;           ;           ;           ;           ;     10

NY         &nbs p;         &nbs p;         &nbs p;         &nbs p;         &nbs p;         &nbs p;    8

Penn         &n bsp;         &n bsp;         &n bsp;         &n bsp;         &n bsp;         10

Ireland          ;           ;           ;           ;           ;       11

Mass.         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;          4

Ohio         &n bsp;         &n bsp;         &n bsp;         &n bsp;         &n bsp;         &n bsp;  1

New Jersy         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;   1

Germany          ;           ;           ;           ;           ;      1

Wales         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         1

Denmark          ;           ;           ;           ;           ;     1

Illinois        &nbs p;         &nbs p;         &nbs p;         &nbs p;         &nbs p;         1

Scotland        &nbs p;         &nbs p;         &nbs p;         &nbs p;         &nbs p;     3

52 of defenders came from non Slave holding countries ----------------so they werent fighting for slavery in all likely hood and most people as in the south never owned slaves

Now some of the main reasons were closing of the border to further settlers and trade embargos (with no trade with the USA -----------one could spend 4 cents for a pound of pork but 5 dollars for a razor or 2 dollars for a pencil), false imprisonment of Texas leaders (Stephen F Austin for one), closed ports, Texas leaders wanting Texas to become an indepentent state in the Republic of Mexico not part of cohullia and finally ---------- the dissolution the constuitional rights, suspending of legislative bodies and Santa Anna putting him self up as absolute ruler/ dictator --------------to Americans freedom and righst were ideals worth fighting for -they were not just words.

7.  As far as standing up to tryanny ------read 2 of Travis's notes from the Alamo

      a.   His famous letter

 The Travis Letter is shown as follows
(front page)

Commandancy of the Alamo------

Bejar Fby. 24th 1836

To the People of Texas &
all Americans in the world------

Fellow citizens & compatriots------

I am besieged, by a thousand
or more of the Mexicans under
Santa Anna ----- I have sustained
a continual Bombardment &
cannonade for 24 hours & have
not lost a man ----- The enemy
has demanded a Surrender at
discretion, otherwise, the garrison
are to be put to the sword, if
the fort is taken ----- I have answered
the demand with a cannon
shot, & our flag still waves
proudly from the wall ----- I
shall never Surrender or retreat

Then, I can on you in the
name of Liberty, of patriotism &
every thing dear to the American
character, to come to our aid,

 (Second Page)

with an dispatch ----- The enemy is
receiving reinforcements daily &
will no doubt increase to three or
four thousand in four or five days.
If this can is neglected, I am deter
mined to sustain myself as long as
possible & die like a soldier
who never forgets what is due to
his own honor & that of his
country ----- Victory or Death

William Barret Travis
Lt. Col. Comdt

 

P. S. The lord is on our side-
When the enemy appeared in sight
we had not three bushels of corn---
We have since found in deserted
houses 80 or 90 bushels & got into
the walls 20 or 30 head of Beeves---

Travis

   b.  William Barret Travis left behind a detailed record of heroes in the making. But as a divorced father of a three-year-old son, he also left us a poignant reminder of the human cost of war.

"Take care of my little boy," he wrote a friend in the last days of the siege. "If the country should be saved, I may make for him a splendid fortune. But if the country should be lost and I should perish, he will have nothing but the proud recollection that he is the son of a man who died for his country."

 

Almsot everything in your post was wrong ------------other the fact there was an Alamo, Davy and the mexicans and texans were there.

 

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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 01:33
Originally posted by Alkiviades

Tours (Poitiers): A moorish raiding party returns home with lotsa loot from the Frankish countryside. Frankish leader ambushes them and the full-will-loot Moors can't fight, succumb and flee. Extremely overated.

I hear the Frankish army had around 60,000 men and the Andulusian Muslims had around 50,000 calvary. This is a raiding party??

  • Franks, led by Charles Martel. Estimates of his forces vary, but by most accounts were between 1575,000. Losses according to St. Denis were about 1,500.
  • Muslims, 60400,000 cavalry, (most likely closer to the lower number) under Abd er Rahman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_tours

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  Quote Alkiviades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 03:01
Those numbers are extremely exaggerated. It's somehow like the battle at Chalons - If you believe Jovanes, both sides had abot 1.000.000 in total, when in reality Attila and Aetius together had no more than 120.000 men at their disposal.

A couple of very good estimations about Tours talk about 10-15.000 Moors vs. 20-25.000 Franks, and I think this is a very good estimation and realistic as well. The fact that the Muslims were a raiding party is not questioned - they didn't set on conquest, they just came into France to loot and plunder and when Martell met them they were on their way home. There is really no point to a 50.000 men big raiding party, is there?
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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 04:57

If you take  a look at Kosovo you will see it was just a tie but in sequnces it was a disaster.

What then is the importance of the Battle of Kosovo? It was a cultural defeat, a religious defeat. It became the symbol of Turkish power and Serbian defeat, not to be forgotten , revenge was always over the horizon. The grand Serbian culture, which flourished under Tzar's Dushan and Milutin, was only a memory, after Serbia's knights, armies and hopes died at the field of Kosovo.

The Turkish victory at Kosovo, was not as much political as it was cultural.

because The military destiny of Serbia was sealed at Maritza 18 years ago.

"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 09:48
Invasion of Normandy may be overrated or not, it depends on how you look at it.

Yes, Russians were already winning the war. So, it didn't effect World War II much, but Europe would be under Soviet influence even today, if Americans didn't invade Northern France.

Edited by Barış
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  Quote Janissary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 16:14
In the Chalons, Tolal numbers was between 180-200 thousand men.
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 16:31
 The numbers at Chalons was probably about 80-100 in total at the very most, the accounts of 300,000 are insanely exaggerated as was the norm.
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 16:34
Muslims, 60400,000




Typo, or cunningly disguised revisionism.
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 21:20
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

If you take  a look at Kosovo you will see it was just a tie but in sequnces it was a disaster.

What then is the importance of the Battle of Kosovo? It was a cultural defeat, a religious defeat. It became the symbol of Turkish power and Serbian defeat, not to be forgotten , revenge was always over the horizon. The grand Serbian culture, which flourished under Tzar's Dushan and Milutin, was only a memory, after Serbia's knights, armies and hopes died at the field of Kosovo.

The Turkish victory at Kosovo, was not as much political as it was cultural.

because The military destiny of Serbia was sealed at Maritza 18 years ago.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 22:18
Battle of the bulge, easly the most over rated battle of the secound world war. I actualy made this argument from this other forum, so i will just copy and paste my writings.

    Americas role in the defeat of Nazi germany is over exsaterated

Three Main Subjects have been over exsatered what america did during the war.


#1-Allied Air Bombing


A populer belif is that allied air bombing crippled the industy of nazi germany, and led to the submussion of the german people to conduct  war due to the targeting of civilians from allied airplanes. This in general, is completly false. In 1944 the allied bombing was at its high'ist, but for some reason german production of tanks,airplanes, and guns were at its high'ist too. So whats up with that? Obvisily allied air bombing didnt prevent german factories from producing record amounts of tanks, guns, etc. A dirty secrete many of you do not know is that the RAF(Royal Air Force), targeted civilians at night, while the USAF(United States Air Force) target german factories during the day. Hondreds of thousends of german men, wemon and children died from allied bombings. A good example of that is in dresden. During that night, over a million german refuges were in that city fleeing the soviet advance into germany. The RAF bombed dressden, over 50,000 civilians died there, and the city its self had little to no militery value. Such cases made the german civilians lynch down bomber crews over germany, and this only fuel'ed german properganda to fight even harder against the enemy. The captrueing of german mines in the east by the red army was more economicly devistating then 3 years of allied air bombings all togeather to germany. Overal, Allied air bombing was brutal to the german people, and is over rated factor to the downfall of nazi germany.

#2-D-Day and The battle of the bulge


Proberly the two most over rated battles of the war in europe. First of notice when these battles took place, 1944. In 1944, germany was screwed, the soviet advance was all ready at the doors of germany, and it was pretty certin that it will continue into germany with or with out a 2nd front in the west. Militerly, D-day is over rated, first off as a said befor, the german has lost the war allready. But the value of D-day politicly was more then any one could imagine. D-Day, prevented communism to spread into western europe, and it protected americas future intrests after world war 2. At the time of the invasion, over 7/10 of the german army was on the eastern front fighting the soviets, when the allies landed in france, they pretty much were fighting weak divisions of german soldiers, and it was no were at the scale of the fighting on the eastern front.

                Battle of the bulge


Like seriously I have no idea why this battle is so importent. Ill give you a little back round on this battle. In december of 1944, germany made a last ditch effort to regain controll on the western front. So, It gathered up to 300,000 men to launch a suprise attack, it failed. Bottom line, win or loss, germany was still screwed!!!!! The battle its self drained further fuel that germany need'ed to fight a war, and even if they did win the battle, they still had fuel problems and they were not able to go further then belguim. A allied counter-attack would of pushed the germans were they were befor with support from allied fighters and bombers. The reason this battle apeals to many people is becuase the fact that a out numberd group of soldiers defeated a german army group.

#3-Lend-Lease Act


Lend-lease act was a goverment act to aid nations from nazi germany. This greatly helped Britian in its final hour(Battle of Britian), and the soviet offensive into germany. Mainly, the most importent lend-lease euimpent the soviet army got was trucks to move supplies with the quick soviet advance into germany. But with out the trucks, the USSR would of been just fine. They allso used still used horse and wagons to transport supplies too, just like many other nations during world war two. The soviet war industry would of just diverted some of its resources to produce some more trucks, but that should not be hard. Givin the fact that soviet factories in some area's out prodcued american tank/airplane/guns factories. Allso, the factories were safely in the ural mt's, away from german bombers and attack.

What i am trying to say that americas role in europe during world war 2 over shadows what happen on the eastern front, and that many people still think that america was the desiding factor for the defeat of nazi germany while neglecting the sacrofice of british and soviet soldiers befor america join the war in late 1941.

*Revised on 7/1


Edited by AlexTheHistoryJunkie
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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 01:02
Originally posted by Decebal

El Alamo is one of the greatest bits of propaganda in history. The battle itself only became famous because Davy Crockett died in it- an illiterate frontiersman who ran for the American congress and encouraged a personality cult of himself. This created a martyr out of him and the loss at Alamo made for a good rallying cry for the texans who later ambushed a part of the Mexican army, which suffered a few hundred casualties in that ulteroir battle. The Alamo battle itself was not very impressive either: about 150 Texans,the great majorityof them of Mexican origin, holed up in an old mission and besieged by about 5000 Mexican troops. I believe that after 13 days, the mission was breached and Santa Anna gave the order for "no prisoners". It was nothing more than a skirmish really, but it was used for propaganda purposes later on.


As for the whole "Americans standing up against tyrrany thing", which the American media and then Hollywood created, it is also false. Most Texans in the battlewere as I said, of Mexican origin. The main reason why they were fighting was because Mexico had abolished slavery to deal with the American immigration in Texas, and they wanted to gain an autonomy which would enable them to keep slaves.Then the Americans took this as a cry for freedom... Oh the irony!



Decebal is right.
The Alamo defenders fought under the mexican flag.
The national coat of arms was replaced by the legend 1824 that stands for the year of implementation of the MEXICAN Federalist Constitution.

Jim Bowie and Travis were MEXICAN CITIZENS , by the way.

The corp gathered by Santa Anna was about 6,000 people indeed, but many of them were also the women that followed to their men and served as nursers and took care of feeding the troops.
The skirmish only involved to 1,400 men not the 6,000 men as claimed by the Tejanos.

The mortality could not reach the claimed 1,500 men due only 1,400 participated on the 1 hour and 30 minutes battle. some sources quotes no more than 250-500 dead or wounded on the mexican side.

source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Alamo


The tejanos were warned about their fate and still resisted and in a bluff they fired a cannon while the mexicans were trying to get from they the surrender.

Santa Anna spared the life of the women and children by allowing the non combatant to evacuate the Alamo.




Edited by Jalisco Lancer
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  Quote prithviraj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 02:37
Samyukta, the princess of Kanauj, married Rajput king Prithviraj Chauhan after he won the battle of Tarain against Muhammed of Ghori. She is described by historians as having thick, black hair and eyes like the black bee moving in the petals of the white lotus. She was the most beautiful queen in the world then.

There are numerous poems and scriptures written about the passion of their romance. However, their love marriage was shortlived, as soon after that, the Muslim invader Muhammed of Ghori again challenged Prtihviraj and defeated him. Ghori captured Prithviraj and killed him cruelly.

There are numerous versions of what exactly happened after that. Many say Samyukta was raped by Ghori and she committed suicide as she couldnt bear the shame. Some say she died a natural death. Others say she was raped repeatedly by Ghori again and again till her death. She may be died due to constant rapes made on her by cruel Ghori.

The Gaurids under their cruel Sultan Muhammed of Ghori invaded India because:
The Gaurids wanted Rajput women because they were obviously very beautiful and because their own women were ugly like themselves and had just as much facial hair as them. Muslims invaded India for 4 main reasons
1) to forcibly spread Islam 2) to rob India of its wealth (which they had little of)
3) to kidnap Hindu noble women and mainly
4) to kill handsome Hindu Rajput warrior Kings like Prithviraj Chauhan and rape their charming, beautiful and lovable wives like Queen Samyukta.
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  Quote prithviraj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 02:38
At the time, when Khwaja Sahib entered India, King Shahabuddin Ghauri was defeated by Prithviraj and his army retreated to Ghazni. people asked Khwaja Sahib (R.A) and his companions not to proceed further as the king of Muslims had been defeated. But all the Saints of the group said : "You were dependent on swords but we have faith in Almighty." Thus the caravan reached at the bank of Ravi river after passing through Fort Shadman and Multan.

Across the Ravi was located Lahore the capital of Punjab and the high rise spires of temples were telling the tales of splendor of the city. They crossed river and stayed at the mazar of Hazart Ali Bin Usman Hijweri, known as Data Ganj Bakhsh (R.A) just out side city wall.

After leaving Lahore, Khwaja Gharib Nawaz (R.A) reached Samna (Patiala) and stayed there. Though apparently, people there were sympathetic but in reality they were enemy to him and wanted to harm him. and the mother of Prithviraj, King of Delhi and Ajmer was an astrologer and after having knowledge through her astrology, she informed her son about signs of a person who will be the cause of his destruction. In view of this prediction, the king asked the artists to sketch the person who resembled Khwaja Gharib Nawaz (R.A) and sent these sketches to all the border areas. He also ordered his men to kill the person resembling with sketch as and where found.

Thus when Khwaja Gharib Nawaz (R.A) reached Samna, King?s men seeing the resemblance, tried to stop him. But Khwaja Sahib (R.A) comprehended their inner feelings through Divine inspiration. So he along with his companions slipped from the hands of their enemies safely and reached Ajmer.

Khwaja Gharib Nawaz (R.A) and their companions used to take bath and performed ablution daily on the bank of Anna Sagar. One day, some of the followers were stopped by the King men for taking bath on the bank of the Anna Sagar and threatened them violently, The followers returned to Khwaja Sahib and informed him about the happening. He asked one of his followers to go and fight with that men. His cruel follower killed all those men by cutting down their coupling organ.

On hearing what had happened to his men, King Prithviraj went their with his army. But Muinnudin Chisti escaped from there.

King Shahabuddin Ghauri who was in Khurasan, dreamt an old Saint, saying :

" O Shahabuddin ! Almighty has granted you kingdom of India. Get up and proceed towards India. Raja Prithviraj was newly married and was enjoying with his wife and delighted with his queen's company. It is the right time to attack his huge force. Come on."

After it, the Saint disappeared. When the king awake, he was under a peculiar state of mind. The voice was still echoing in his ears, saying ? proceed towards India. Success will be yours?. The King decided to invade hindustan again.

Ghauri on Expedition to India

King Shahabuddin Mohammed Ghauri was defeated by king Prithvi Raj one-year back in the field of Tara-en(Tradri) with great difficulties, but Ghori could save himself and reached Ghazni.Since he wanted to defeat Prithvi Raj, he was preparing for a war secretly. But he did not expected to go for a battle against India after such a short span of time.

The Dream created great enthusiasm in his heart and he ordered his army to proceed on the expedition. On the eight day, he himself proceeded on the crusade. The army officers were very much surprised over the rush for the expedition. But nobody dared to enquire about it . When the army camped in Peshawar, an old man of royal family asked " O king though the preparations are on small scale, but the intention is still secret?"

The King took a deep breath and said. "You don?t know, what happened to me. Can you recall last year?s defeat that is a blot on my face, be sure that neither I havechanged my clothes nor I have taken rest on the bed. I not even touched my wife after that defeate."

Hearing the king, the old man encouraged Shahabuddin Ghauri, prayed for his victory and said, If your lordship has the intention then act according to the need of the hour. Kindly call the Emirs and Chiefs to your court, grant them pardon and honour them, so that they could fight for you and may sacrifice their lives for you and wash the earlier defeat. The king liked the idea. So after reaching Multan, he called the court and granted a general pardon to all the Emirs and Chiefs. Then he addressed them" TO FIGHT FOR HIM". Every chief swore to fight till last breath for the cause after putting their hand on swords.

Condition of Prithviraj Chauhan:
After defeating Ghori in the firat battle, Prithviraj eloped with his lover Samyuktha, the princess of Kanouj. Prithviraj married Samyuktha and the royal couple continued their honeymoon endlessly. Prithviraj forgot his duties as an emperor and spent all the valuable times with his lovely wife Samyukta and he never the harem. Nor did Samyuktha remember her husband about his duties. They forgot themselves in their love and lust. Ghori collected his force and again invaded India not only to kill Prithviraj but also to rape his charming and lovable wife Samyuktha. Prithviraj was alarmed by this news and the Chauhan ruler was fully alive to the rise of this beef-eating Mlechha named Ghori in the north-west who had captured Garjani [Ghazni]. Prithviraj again formed a vast army that was many times greater in numerical strength than that of Ghori.

A Decisive War

Shahabuddin took the advantage of the opportunity and he ordered for war in the evening, left the army camp as it is and after taking a long round of many miles crossed the river in the darkness of the night, and caught the enemy unaware. The emperor did not loose his senses and face the attack with a part of his army. Later the rest of his army also joined him.Rai Pithora?s army was comprised of three thousand elephants, three lakhs cavalry and a large number of swordsmen, while king Shahabuddin Ghauri had an army of one lakh twenty thousand soldiers.

Since Rai Pithora was very sure about his victory, so he did not bother for an organized fight and ordered the entire army to charge against the enemy, On the contrary, King Shahabuddin, adopting war tactics, divided army into four parts under the command of four able generals and sent them to fight one after another. Rajput fought with great courage and bravery that disappointed the Sultan?s army. But he adopted another tactic. He lagged behind in an organized manner showing that he is defeated. Rajputs followed them in a disorganized manner. When the king saw the Rajputs disorganized, he attacked with his fresh army.

There was a fierce fight till noon. Raja Prithvi Raj came out of the warfield and stayed under the shadow of tree with his participating 150 chiefs. A final attack was decided. Everyone took an oath and came into warfield. Raja?s army was tired as it was fighting since morning. The Sultan sensed the opportunity. He launched a very strong attack with his fresh 12,000 swordsmen who all of a sudden reached in the heart of enemy?s army. When the other chiefs of king?s army saw the scene, They also pressed the enemy from left and right. In a moment, thousands of Rajputs were killed. The rajput?s army became panic. Meanwhile the elephants force, back bone of Raja?s army was also crushed by cruel muslim warriors. Rajputs tried their best to face the position but in vain. Lusty Gharib Nawaz?s (R.A) words were to be proved true, and they were.

It was dusk when the sultan?s army dominated the enemies. A number of Raja?s including Khande Rao were killed while some other?s escaped. Rai Pithora also wanted to escape but was captured and slashed on the banks of Saraswati river. Raja was taken as a prisoner along with Ghori.

In the end Shahabuddin Ghauri immerged victorious and the hold of Muslims on northern India became stronger. Later the Rajput?s king-doms like Saraswati, Samana, Kohram and Hansi were captured without any difficulty. Then Sultan proceeded to Ajmer. Nobody challenged him but the son?s of defeated and slain Rajas tried to stop him. But they were massacred in no time by Ghori. After reaching Ajmer, he taken over the kingdom to Prithvi Raj. Prithviraja who had been made captive and who refused to swear submission was beheaded by cruel Ghori. Then Ghori marched straight to Prithviraj's Harem and captured his beautiful and lovely wife Samyuktha before Jauhar. He raped Samyuktha again and again till her death. Ghori even killed the new born infant of Prithviraj and Samyuktha. All other women of Raja's harem were also been captured.

King Shahabuddin at the Feet of Khwaja Sahib

The evening was falling when Shahabuddin finished his raping in Ajmer. He heard Azan which made him surprised. On inquiring, people told him that some Fakir?s who had arrived a short time ago, used to call like this five times daily. The king took the direction. The Jamaat for prayers was ready. He joined it. Gharib Nawaz (R.A) was leading the Namaz.

As and when the prayers were over, and the king saw Khwaja Shaib (R.A), he was very much surprised , Since he recognized the man who predicted his victory in the dream. He wanted to fall flat on the feet of Gharib Nawaz (R.A) but the Khwaja embraced the king instead. Khwaja Gharib Nawaz (R.A) blessed him and asked him to sit. When he regained, he made a request for Bayt. Khwaja Gharib Nawaz (R.A) accepted the request and made him his disciple. Ghori offered 12 beautiful women captured from raja's harem. Nawaz accepted it with great pleasure and raped all those women on that same day.

After staying in Ajmer for few days, Sultan Shahabuddin Muhammed Ghauri marched towards Kannouj and captured it. He appointed his faithful Slave Qutubuddin Ebak, Viceroy of India and went back to Ghazni. Qutubuddin captured rest of small kingdoms in north India in a very short span of time and soon the Muslims got hold of the entire north India.

Thus with the help of a cruel muslim magician saint ghori defeated prithviraj.
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Decebal View Drop Down
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 10:13
Originally posted by Texas

[QUOTE=Decebal]

Almsot everything in your post was wrong ------------other the fact there was an Alamo, Davy and the mexicans and texans were there.

Okay, I concede that my numbers were somewhat wrong. But really, does it make that much of a difference in the overall scheme of things? I said 150, you said 184...  I said a few hundred Mexican troops died, you said 630... I said most defenders were Mexican, you gave me 52 out of 184 that weren't. Who are the other 132?

Davy Crockett created a personality cult of himself. His death is the main reason why the battle of the Alamo became famous.

Granted, Santa Anna was a dictator; but the reason why he imposed the embargo and curved immigration from the US is that he feared that the US wanted to annex certain areas of Mexico, including Texas. History in the end proved that he wasn't wrong after all.

The point that I'm really trying to make is that the Alamo was a battle without a lot of importance, that involved few Americans, but which was transformed into a battle which carries a great symbolic value for the USA, who had very little to do with it. Read Jalisco's post for some additional valuable comments

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  Quote aghart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 19:18
Hastings and Waterloo overated !! get real.  Is it a coincidence that most people who think this is the case are "non" Europeans?
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 20:08

Waterloo was overated, if it hadn't of happened. The Allied would still be intact, the Prussian army was still intact and Russia, Prussian and British armies had been dispatched and were arriving soon. Napoleon was Aylesbury Ducked whatever anyways.

Hastings wasn't, If William had lost the Norman empire which had repercussions across most of Europe would never have been.

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  Quote Alkiviades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 22:40
Ditto on Hastings. Waterloo... as I said, beating a dead horse. Something like the fall of Constantinople story of a death foretold...
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 13:58
why woudl ever somebody consider Hastings an important battle at all, could somebody please explain???
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 17:15
Originally posted by Temujin

why woudl ever somebody consider Hastings an important battle at all, could somebody please explain???


If William of Normandy hadn't won this battle, world would be very different. It is for sure that there won't be USA, Canada, Australia  and other lands like we know them today. History in India would be very much different. We just couldn't imagine how different could be the world today if Anglo-Saxon England would survive after 1066. It's hard to tell. Anglo-Saxon England had more common culture with Scandinavia in 11th century than with other continental Europe like Normandy, France, Germany asw.


Edited by axeman
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