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Topic ClosedLanguage of Azeri People and Pan-Turkism

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Language of Azeri People and Pan-Turkism
    Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 06:08

Actually it had a different name Azerbijan is the Arabized version of the word Azarbadagan etc etc many more forms of the word

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 05:14
Azerbaijan, even in Iran, did not exist before 800 A.D.

So we're talking 1200 years, tops.


Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 04:41

Originally posted by Janissary

And also, the language that Azerbaijan Turks speak, they are not any dialects of any non-turkish language, they are Turkish language and has been spoken in Caucasus more than 1800 years.

hay man you really speak some you know what, your research leave little to be desired for, your reasonings have no backing. Copy paste and think it is true..... take the nationalistic Ideas else where.....

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 04:36

Originally posted by baracuda

Maybe now you're going to say that Turkish is a Iranian dialect known as ....i And I would also like to correct the phrase 'Mongol' first of all the majority of tribes were 'Turkic' which include's their tongue, and sort of explains why no-one speaks mongolian, but speak turkic dialects. Secondly I would like to point out, part the Huns,Avars,Khazars,Uygurs,Volga Bulgars,Kara-khanids,Pechenegs,Ghaznavids,Selcuks, Khwarezm-Shahs, Kipchak Khanate (Golden Horde), Turko-Mongol Empire of Cengiz Khan, Ottoman Empire, Turko-mongol empire of Timur Lenk....... there are countless other turkic tribes that have faught, settled, and died in this area.. all of which spans a period from 1st-2nd Century to present day, even if you begin with Bulgars,Khazars and the Oguz then from 586 to present day.

So the Turkic language in the area is pretty ancient, and perhaps much older than the one that is proposed by the writer of your article. The azeri as people maybe are a mixture of most of the above turkic people's with persian, armenian, and various other local people of this area, or maybe just people of this area with another language that I dont know.

I couldnt care much for the 'Turan' or 'Nationalistic' ideas but the 'turks' as various peoples and empires have never really been researched to any good extent, on the contrary their existance has been constantly pushed aside or into the dark, without means for any argument on the matter, some hatred the world has for turks I can say that.

 

Very interesting arguement dude but already some of the so called Turkish tribes you named have Iranian names, Iranian language is a lot older to this region the Turkish, the use of Iranian words in Turkish is a testament to it but also to the mixing of culture of Iraniand and Turks, there are Turkish words in Modern Farsi as well as Iranian words in Modern Turkish.... Just like Russian is a mixture of Iranian, Tukish and Scandanavian..... Then we could argue there is no such thing at all as Russian infact your all Turks who adopted a different language and that there is No slavs they are all Turks!! There is more anti-Iranian then there is anti-Turk, Turkish tribes are little researched due to Soviet Era and the now Turkish form of Nationalism which denys other histories, Az for the Caucas there really is only two ethnicities there now, those of Iranian and Turkish and the mixing of the two, all others where mixed with till these two became dominat in the region!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 03:33

Originally posted by Janissary

they are Turkish language and has been spoken in Caucasus more than 1800 years.

hahah, this is a new one coming from a pan-turk.

turks didnt even come into history until between the 6th and 7th century AD.

so how did they show up before 200 AD.

you are a joker man. I would like to see some archeological evidence of this. hahahha

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 22:58

So how could the language change in such a short time into another which belongs to a completely different  LANGUAGE GROUP! (I mean from indo-european to Altaic)

 

isnt it a bit silly statement ??

 

I think you are DAMNABLY making pan-persoarianism,Persian...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 21:42
And also, the language that Azerbaijan Turks speak, they are not any dialects of any non-turkish language, they are Turkish language and has been spoken in Caucasus more than 1800 years.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 21:41

that would be great, Thank u, and make it so that i can copy and save it in may comp.

Becouse i also turkish, And u,

Guys, if Want I really can find and give wide Information Bout Volga Bulgar and Great Bulgar Staates which were almost turkish ( Not todays Bulgaria).

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 05:44
"Maju" - Im working on a turkic timeline, I will post it later, as for the Volga Bulgars/Bolgars there isnt any doubt of their origin and even their decendents today are considered the Chuvash, and the Tatar people. So dont mix the current Bulgarians (of mainly slavic stock) with the Bulgars/Bolgars that I have written, language-wise, the only living Bulgar/Bolgar language today is considered Chuvash. (p.s. I will post more for 'in favor' and 'against' all this later.)

Nationalistic stuff I agree they're rubbish, thats why I threw away most of my turkish research material. In my opinion I can put Turks into 3 possible periods without to much a hassle, firstly like you say 1000BC, secondly about 3000BC, thirdly 204BC but material even on more modern periods is hard to come by, and the earlier periods have archeological evidence of vary dangerous nature. (Nationalistically of other countries of non-turk origin - to such extent that people have been killed for writing their hypothesis)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 04:59
Ahamd Kasravi has proven that based on evidence, the local language of Azeri people, at least, to the end of Mogul era (middle of the 8th century after Hegira) has been Azeri. After that, during a 150-year interval from the time that Chengiz dynasty became defunct since establishment of Safavids, the Azeri language was gradually replaced by Turkish dialect.


I thought it was during Seljuq era, but this falls in line with the account of the Ottoman historian, Evliya Chelebi, in Iran who visited in the middle of Safavi reign that Pahlavi was only in use among the higher classes (became exlusive).

Interesting article.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 03:45
Baracuda: I would like to see a serious timeline of Turk migrations. It's well known that Khazars were Turkic but the attribution of that tag to Bulgars and others remains (maybe purposedly) doubtful. Would you be able to make a comprehensive, rather solid, serious (with the apropiate cautions) article/post on Turkic prehistory, protohistory and history? Also on ethnology: are Tatars Turks and things like that. It would be most interesting.

My feeling is that Turks got estabilished in Central Asia before 1000 BC and that, from that region have migrated in many occasions, sometimes on their own and sometimes associated to other peoples. But I would like to see a more comprehensive study of the true role of Turkic peoples in the history of Eurasia, without tiresome nationalist riff-raffs (at least as much as possible).

Anticipated thanks.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 03:20
Maybe now you're going to say that Turkish is a Iranian dialect known as ....i And I would also like to correct the phrase 'Mongol' first of all the majority of tribes were 'Turkic' which include's their tongue, and sort of explains why no-one speaks mongolian, but speak turkic dialects. Secondly I would like to point out, part the Huns,Avars,Khazars,Uygurs,Volga Bulgars,Kara-khanids,Pechenegs,Ghaznavids,Selcuks, Khwarezm-Shahs, Kipchak Khanate (Golden Horde), Turko-Mongol Empire of Cengiz Khan, Ottoman Empire, Turko-mongol empire of Timur Lenk....... there are countless other turkic tribes that have faught, settled, and died in this area.. all of which spans a period from 1st-2nd Century to present day, even if you begin with Bulgars,Khazars and the Oguz then from 586 to present day.

So the Turkic language in the area is pretty ancient, and perhaps much older than the one that is proposed by the writer of your article. The azeri as people maybe are a mixture of most of the above turkic people's with persian, armenian, and various other local people of this area, or maybe just people of this area with another language that I dont know.

I couldnt care much for the 'Turan' or 'Nationalistic' ideas but the 'turks' as various peoples and empires have never really been researched to any good extent, on the contrary their existance has been constantly pushed aside or into the dark, without means for any argument on the matter, some hatred the world has for turks I can say that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2005 at 22:07
Helpful hint! I think it would be better for the readers if you condensed your article(s) into your own summation. This gives us the ability to respect your research and understand your viewpoints better. Instead of copy and pasting, a link with a brief paragraph is helpful too. Anyhow, good info.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2005 at 22:02
Language of Azeri People and Pan-Turkism
By: Mohammad Taghi Sbokddel, January 2004


1. Azarbaijan
The name of Azarbaijan has been one of the most renowned geographical names of Iran since 2000 years ago. Azar is the same as "Ashur" which means fire. In Pahlavi inscriptions, Azarbaijan has been mentioned as 'Oturpatekan', while it has been mentioned Azarbayegan and Azarpadegan in Persian writings. It is Azarabadegan in Shah Nameh and Arabs knew it as Azarbijan or Adarbijan.

With regard to the emergence of Azarbaijan, the writing by Strabo, the famous Greek geographer seems to be the most important of all writings.

When the rule of Achaemenid dynasty came to an end, Alexander from Macedonia conquered Iran. A worrier called Otupart rose in Azarbayegan and prevented that land, which was part of the Median empire and was known as 'Lesser Mede' to be captures by Greek worriers. The land was thereafter called Oturpatekan.

Ahmad Kasravi, an Azeri pundit, opined that Oturpat was made up of Otur, meaning Azar or fire and Pat, which was later corroded to Paad and Baad, which meant guard.

In June 1918, the dignitaries of Mosavat (equality) Party, established a government in Caucasus and called it Azerbaijan following suit with policies of Turks. At that time, the naming gave rise to controversies and some even went as far as announcing that, "As if Azerbaijan is a land, which has been divided in two parts; one part lying to the north of Aras river and the other part lying to the south."

The disputes became so hectic that Azarbayegan proper was called 'Southern Azerbaijan' while Aran and Shiravan were called northern Azerbaijan to deceive the Iranian youth.

Mosavat Party whose real name was 'Mosavat Islamic Democratic Party' was established in 1911 in Baku with the goal of unifying Turks in Asia Minor.

Mosavat Party followed the policies of Pan-Turkists and advocated unity of all Turk-speaking people.


2. Language of Azeri people
The language spoken in Azerbaijan is one of the dialects of the Persian language, which was known to us as Azeri tongue.

Ahamd Kasravi has proven that based on evidence, the local language of Azeri people, at least, to the end of Mogul era (middle of the 8th century after Hegira) has been Azeri. After that, during a 150-year interval from the time that Chengiz dynasty became defunct since establishment of Safavids, the Azeri language was gradually replaced by Turkish dialect.

During recent year, Manouchehr Mortazavi, in an article on the ancient language of Azerbaijan, had opined that Azeri has been the language of Azerbaijan people and it has included various dialects.

However, since there has been discrepancies with regard to the original language of Azerbaijan people, the compendium of research results is as follows:

Ibn al-Nadim writes in his book al-Fihrist that the language of Iranian people could be divided in five classes including Pahlavi, Dari, Farsi, Khuzi (language of people in Khuzestan) and Soriani. Relying on what Ibn Muqaffa' said, he opined that Dari was the language of courtiers while Farsi was the language of priests and scientists and the language of people of Fars; Khuzi was the language that kings and dignitaries used in their intimate talks. Soriani was the language of people of Iraq while Pahlavi was spoken by people of Isfahan, Rey, Hamedan, Mah (Mede), Nahavand and Azerbaijan. His writing goes as such:

"Ibn Muqaffa' said: Iranian languages are five: Pahlavi, Dari, Farsi, Khuzi and Soriani. Pahlavi is attributed to Pahleh, which includes five regions of Isfahan, Rey, Hamedan, Mah, Nahavand and Azerbaijan. Dari is the language of cities in Madaen and courts of kings. Dari is eastern. Farsi is the language of priests and scientists. Dari is mostly spoken by people of Khorassan, Balkh and some regions in Fars. Khuzi is spoken by kings and dignitaries, but Soriani is the language of people of Iraq."

Out of the abovementioned languages, only two languages, including Dari, spoken in east Iran including Khorassan, and Pahlavi that was spoken by people in Isfahan, Rey, Hamedan, Nahavand and Azerbaijan are of concern here.

The authors belonging to the first centuries after Hegira have called the language of people of Azerbaijan as 'Azeri Pahlavi' and sometimes 'Azeri' and maintained that the said language was different from the language spoken in east Iran.

However, the difference was not so big as to make them incapable of comprehending what other peoples said. Nasser Khosrow in his itinerary says, "I arrived in Tabriz in 438 A.H.... I saw a poet in Tabriz named Ghetran. He was a good poet, but could not speak Persian correctly. He came to me with poetry books of Manjik and Daqiqi and asked any word that he could not understand..."

I presume that Nasser Khosrow meant Dari Persian which was known to him but some of whose words were not known to Khorassani poet. Marquat??, the famous Iranian scholar has written that, "Pahlavi language is, in fact, the same as Azeri language."

Yagoubi lived in the third century A.H. In his book, al-Boldan, he says the language of Azeri people was "Azeri Pahlavi".

Abu Abdollah Bashari Moqaddasi in his book divides Iran into eight climatic regions noting, "The language of these regions is Persian; however, some of them speak Dari and some complicated; and all those dialects are called Persian."

Masoudi believed that Pahlavi, Dari and Azeri were of the same origin and combination of their works was the same and all of them were considered among Farsi dialects.

Abu Abdollah Mohammad ibn Ahmad Kharazmi, who lived in the fourth century A.H., attributes Persian language to people of Fars and the language of priests and believes that Dari was the language of courtiers. With regard to Pahlavi language, he writes:

"Pahlavi is one of the Iranian languages used by kings. The work has been attributed to Pahleh, which encompasses five lands: Isfahan, Rey, Hamedan, Nahavand and Azerbaijan."

Estakhri says in his book, al-Masalek and al-Mamalek that the language of people of Azerbaijan is Arabic and Persian.

I believe that despite its tremendous pressure, Arabic could not overwhelm Persian and was rejected first in Khorassan and then in other parts of Iran.

Eranski??, the famous Russian scholar writes: "After pushing Arabic back in Khorassan and other regions, Persian did the same in other areas."

Two factors were influential in this regard. Firstly, Arabs were controlling a wide empire from Sir Darya River to Spain and their dominance in Iran was not so much as to be able to overwhelm the Iranian element. Secondly, the conflict between Iranians and Arabs, especially in political, military and literary fields was intense.

Ibn Hauqal writes, "The language of people of Azerbaijan and most people of Arminiyeh is Persian and Arabic if rife too. There are few merchants and landlords that speak Persian and who don't know Arabic."

Two points are worthy of mention: Firstly, the language of Azerbaijan people was Persian. Secondly, Arabic was not common among villages and lay people and only part of people knew it.

Ibn Hauqal says the languages spoken by people of Armenia and Aran were part of Persian. He writes, "Some tribes from Armenia and the like speak languages that are like Armenian. The same is true about people in Dabil and Nahvi (Nakhichevan). The language of Barza'eh people is Arani and the mountain known as Caucasus is theirs around which heathens with various languages live."

Yaghout Hemavi, who lived in the sixth and seventh century A.H. says with regard to the language of Azeris, "They speak a language called Azeri and nobody can understand it but themselves."

There were many dialects in Persia that were not intelligible to anybody but those who spoke them. One of them was the dialect of Talesh people in Gilan, which is unintelligible to people from other regions.

Hamdollah Mostofi, who lived in the seventh and eighth centuries A.H., refers to language of people of Maragheh and writes, "Their language is altered Pahlavi."

With regard to people of Talesh and their language, he writes, "People there are white and follow the religion of Imam Shafei. Their language is Pahlavi with Jilani dialect," he noted.

Homam Tabrizi, the renowned poet of Azerbaijan who lived in the 7th and 8th centuries A.H. has written many poems in Azeri Pahlavi.

Ezzoddin Adel ibn Yousof Tabrizi, who lived during 8th and 9th centuries A.H. has also written poems in Azeri dialect of Pahlavi.

There is no sign of Turkish words in those poems.

Undoubtedly, the dialect of Azeri Pahlavi was spoken in Azerbaijan until the advent of Safavid period, but it became obsolete in villages and cities since the middle of the Safavid period and only remained in hard-to-pass regions.

After this introduction, it is clear that if some try through sophistication to prove that Azerbaijan has been inhabited by Turks from old times, and it was only afterwards that some Aryans speaking Iranian languages conquered there accidentally, their claims would be nothing but purposeful lies.

Now it has become evident that the Turkish language rife in Azerbaijan, has been the language of what people from the start and how it has been imposed on people living there. It is ridiculous that some people consider it as the mother tongue of Azeri people and invite the people to replace it for the official Persian language. It is obvious that no learned people will get themselves down to forsake the language of Firdawsi, Sa'adi, Mowlavi and Hafiz and trade it for the faulty, backward language that was brought in by the marauding Turkmans. This is a foreign language that did not belong to the language of Iranian ancestors and was imposed on them.

The zealous people of Azerbaijan know these facts and will never follow a group of gullible guys who are stooges of other people.

We hope to prevent this vice to happen to people of Azerbaijan and we are sure than they know better than anybody else the main purpose of those who try to propagate it. We are sure that the Truth will always overcome Vice and demonstrate its power.


3. Pan-Turkism
Pan-Turkism movements reverberated in Baku since many years ago, or exactly since 1908, when young Turks seized power in Istanbul. During those years the putsch carried out by Unity and Progress Committee ended despotic rule of Sultan Abdolhamid and Turkist tendencies substituted Islamic school of thought.

The vanguards of Pan-Turkism stemmed from Turk peoples in the Russian empire that were in turn influenced by Pan-Slavism, which were formed in Russia during 19th century. In 1904, Yousof Anghchur Oghlu, a Tartar from Russia, which was later known as Yousof Aghchur, published a treatise titled, "Three Methods of Politics", which gradually gained importance as the manifest of Pan-Turkism.

During World War I, Pan-Turkist activities in Baku, which was dominated by Tsars of Russia, was limited to publication of periodicals. What is the main purpose of such periodicals as Yeni Foyouzat (New Bounties) and Shalaleh that while loyal to Tsars had made refining Turkish language in Caucasus their main objective and now laud Pan-Turkism and its worse alternative Pan-Turanism?

The theorists of Pan-Turkism believe that all ethnic groups and nationalities from Eastern Europe to Great Wall of China, which enjoy language, religious and traditional commonalties are, in fact, a single nation and should come together as a big nation and fulfill their historical mission in the face of other big civilizations such as European, Arab, Indian and Chinese civilizations. Their views, however, cannot be supported by scientific realities. Most great nations are made up of a single dominant race or, at least, ethnic variation of that race. An example is the United States of America, that while not older than two and a half centuries, is mainly made up of people from Anglo-Saxon or German stock. In the same way, people in Canada, Australia and New Zealand mainly hail from north or south European origin.

Pan-Turks claim that all people from beyond the straits to the end of Central Asia, ... are peoples from a single large nation, which have been divided due to historical injustice and their historical duty is to come together under a single flag.

They produce several reasons, the most important of which is the common language. They claim that all those languages were originally a single language that were later changed due to unfavorable conditions.

This claim is quite baseless, because those various languages could be divided in several categories:

1. Tribes known as Turks were serving Samanid kings in Central Asia during the 2nd and 3rd centuries A.H. and then they accepted Islam and began serving Abbasid caliphs and then established Ghaznavid dynasty and ruled Afghanistan and half of Iran.

2. Oghuz or Ghoz tribes invaded Iran from Central Asia and in addition go Ghaznavid, they did away with such Iranian dynasties as Al-e Bouyeh and Al-e Ziar and established Seljuk government, which in addition to the whole Iranian plateau ruled Asia Minor and Iraq, Arabs and the current day's Syria up to Mediterranean and even conquered Baghdad and made the Abbasid caliphs their stooge.

3. Mogul tribes, led by Chengiz invaded the whole Iran, Asia Minor and the Arabian Iraq and established the rule of Mogul ilkhans.

4. Tartar tribes first conquered the northern parts of the Central Asia and northern coasts of the Caspian Sea and then bolstered their forces under the command of Teimur and attacked Iran, Iraq and Caucasus to establish Gurkani government.

Therefore, the claims that all the above peoples were of a single origin, that is the land referred to as Turan, is baseless.

Pan-Turks go as far as introducing Mohammad Hossein Shahriar, the famous Iranian poet as follower of Turkish poets. Even if they gather a number of Azeris educated in Istanbul or Ankara, under 'Urmia Conference' and call for separation of Azerbaijan from Iran and its annexation to Turkey, they will not be able to dampen patriotic sentiments of Azeri people.

Even today, the difference among the language of those tribes referred to by Pan-Turks is so wide that Turkmens do not understand the language of Kyrkyz people and Uzbeks do not comprehend what people of Azerbaijan say. If such differences did not exit, there is no reason to assume that people of Iran's Azerbaijan are from a single origin with people of Anatolia because, firstly, Turkish language was imposed on people of Azerbaijan since a couple of centuries ago and before that they spoke Persian. Secondly, profound historical ties that date back to the time of Zoroaster have linked Azerbaijan with other parts of Iran so strongly that they cannot be taken apart. History has proven that anytime that foreigners hatched a plot to take Azerbaijan away from Iran, the people of Azerbaijan formed the front line of struggle to thwart that plot.

http://www.iranchamber.com/people/articles/language_azeri_pe ople_pan_turkism.php
Iran = Iran, nothing else
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