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Topic ClosedAnti-Arab propaganda

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Zagros View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Anti-Arab propaganda
    Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 18:06

I meant as defined, officially, by Islam.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 03:30

Ottoman Turk, may Allah be pleased with you always. Im doing my minimum requirement in at least defending my religion from false accusations to the knowledge that i know so far. A job that is required to all, and as Azimuth and Seko both have been doing it long time ago.

I just hope that those questions that come from the forumers here are asked to learn. If they are just to argue, then no answer will satisfy them and they will keep banging their head just to prove their point regardless of reality.

 

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Muhammad the prophet says: "If the Religion were at the Pleiades (very distant stars), no one can find it except a Persian!"

Cyrus, you are an administrator. If we failed keeping up with the topic of this thread, you at least should be the example in not deviating from the thread original topic. Now, your earlier question was answered. I would like to know then, this hadith being placed here, is for what purpose?

Before you tell us of the reasons behind stating that hadith, I would like first to let you know that again, you got a mistated hadith here. Going to the original translation of the Hadith, there are two versions of it under the Muslim Sahih (a book of collection of hadiths like the Bukhari). Chapter 59, the following two versions are stated:

Book 031, Number 6177:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: If the din were at the Pleiades, even then a person from Persia would have taken hold of it, or one amongst the Persian descent would have surely found it.

Book 031, Number 6178:

Abu Huraira reported: We were sitting in the company of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) that Sura al-Jumu'a was revealed to him and when he recited (these words):" Others from amongst them who have not yet joined them," a person amongst them (those who were sitting there) said: Allah's Messenger! But Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) made no reply, until he questioned him once, twice or thrice. And there was amongst us Salman the Persian. The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) placed his hand on Salman and then said: Even if faith were near the Pleiades, a man from amongst these would surely find it.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim /031.smt.html#031.6178

As you see above. The meaning is totally different than yours.  Your Hadith says: "If the Religion were at the Pleiades (very distant stars), no one can find it except a Persian!". the "No one can find it except a persian" is definitely added to the hadith and neither the two known versions of it state a similar meaning. The two known versions of that Hadith are:

"If the din were at the Pleiades, even then a person from Persia would have taken hold of it, or one amongst the Persian descent would have surely found it."

"Even if faith were near the Pleiades, a man from amongst these would surely find it." he was holding his hand on Salman Al Farisi while saying this.

So as you see Cyrus. It is a general statement with Salman Al Farisi presence. The second version of the hadith is clearer about who was there and what occasion he stated the hadith in. It basically says that the light of faith is clear, even for the farthest person. Even among them (the prophet used Salman's example in becoming a Muslim) the far persians, a person came from them to us muslim here, who is Salman. That is for sure totally different than your translation that no one can find it except a Persian!

P.S: Cyrus, that is the second time you post a hadith or Quran with no link. If that hadith or Quran you posted came from a source, then please post the link so we can evaluate that source. If it has no source, but your own interpretation, then please take in consideration your status in this forum as an administrator too by being careful next time regarding using your own interpretation for religious scripts. Especially those not in your language. Thank you.

Zagors, good question regarding the Caliphate of Islam. That fits the thread "should the caliphate be revived" or "the Islamic state: who begins" which is still active till now.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 10:37
From now on I will monitor this thread especially for trolling sacrcastic remarks, allegations without references and general demeanor of posts. If we continue to show mature inquiry than there will not be a problem and the thread will stay open.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 12:58

ok ge, if you read the first post, you will undrestand that "Anti-Arab propaganda" is absolutely a wrong topic for this thread, the main question here that we are discussing for is that "is Islam an Iranian, Arabic or divine religion?"

I think you believe that it is a divine religion and its book (Quran) is a holy book with no error but do you let us to discuss about it? however it is seems you also believe that administrators are holy men without making any mistake!

just a question, do you know anything about DinKard (the book of religion)?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 15:01

Originally posted by Seko

From now on I will monitor this thread especially for trolling sacrcastic remarks, allegations without references and general demeanor of posts. If we continue to show mature inquiry than there will not be a problem and the thread will stay open.

This is not an anti-Islamic or an anti-arabic thread!

Many people here believe that some of the most important doctrines of Islam such as belief in Heaven and Hell, the end of the world and the Day of the Judgement derived ultimately from Zoroastrianism.

Is there a problem?

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 15:55

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

ok ge, if you read the first post, you will undrestand that "Anti-Arab propaganda" is absolutely a wrong topic for this thread, the main question here that we are discussing for is that "is Islam an Iranian, Arabic or divine religion?"

The topic started with an inquirey and it was answered clear that those accusations are anti-Islamic, and not anti-Arab. If the topic deviated from that during the course of discussion, then it is understandable and expected. However, for intentially deviating the topic, that is unacceptable.

What is the relationship of the sun being fixed or if it has an orbit, or if the Quran text is different or not, or your recent mistated hadith? You didn't even show your point or question after the hadith. That is why I asked you.

 Having said this, no one said you cannot ask, but if the discussion took off to a whole different deminsion which is "is Islam an Iranian, Arabic or divine religion?", why don't you create a thread with this proper title Cyrus? After all, it is truly a misleading title to new comers and will give the false impression that criticizing the Quran is an insult to Arabs only. Therefore, a proper thread should be created if there is a proper demand on such a totally different topic. Then we can discuss as much as you like.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think you believe that it is a divine religion and its book (Quran) is a holy book with no error but do you let us to discuss about it? however it is seems you also believe that administrators are holy men without making any mistake!

How do you like us to discuss about the Quran and Islam with wrong quotes? Any suggestions?

Just to remind you what Seko has said earlier:

Originally posted by Seko

Make a point if you will but get the darn thing right or don't bother at all

Now, I requested your source of your Quranic verse, but you ignored that. Then you came back posting again a hadith with no link or source. And it is again mistated or i should say in this case (since it is the second time) manupilated.

Im glad that you know it is a mistake, however, you are a historian Cyrus, so requesting that you take more time validating your sources before postingis not a request that you are not familiar with. Especially with a widely available authenticated work as the various translations of the meaning of Quran and Hadith.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

just a question, do you know anything about DinKard (the book of religion)?

I only know that it is written in that form of Pahlavi language, which was current in the Sassanian times and It contains enormous information on the doctrines, tenets, traditions, history and the scriptural and other writings of the Mazdayasni. You can enlighten us more about it if you like.



Edited by ok ge
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 16:12

Cok Gec and Cyrus, I believe that we all would like to continue down the line of sophisticated and respectful discussions. I'm glad all of us do encourage that.

Originally posted by Saka

Originally posted by Seko

From now on I will monitor this thread especially for trolling sacrcastic remarks, allegations without references and general demeanor of posts. If we continue to show mature inquiry than there will not be a problem and the thread will stay open.

This is not an anti-Islamic or an anti-arabic thread!

Many people here believe that some of the most important doctrines of Islam such as belief in Heaven and Hell, the end of the world and the Day of the Judgement derived ultimately from Zoroastrianism.

Is there a problem?

 

There is a problem if we keep such discussions under the heading of Anti-Arab propaganda.

This type of rebuttal needs room for improvement too:

Originally posted by Saka

azimuth wrote:

that zoroastrianiam copied Judaisim can be a possibility. and Judaisim is recognised by muslims to be a religion which came from God and by time people changed many of its principls and rules.

so having similarities between the Zoroastians and Islam wont be a supprise.

specially in one god . heaven and hell concepts similarities.

anyway may continue this later i'll be away for sometime.

 So funny .... So funny....

 

 

Lastly, a topic on the origins and spread of Zoroastrianism would fit the picture better. That is why this thread is an inappropriate platform to attack Islam or the Koran. If you still insist then I suggest you clarify your arguement with links, many links.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 18:42

You fell down into your own thread    

Nothing  to add ?     

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 18:49
No he didn't, he is a moderator and he is setting the parameters for discussion, operate within them or receive a warning. There is no need for your insolent demeanor. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 19:55

 

Wich insolent demeanor? 

Hey "Lord" zagros you take your moderator privilege to much seriously, Man ba to kar nadaram...

Isn't muslims who attacked persians first?

Originally posted by HulaguHan

The Persians are crying laudly, don' t care it. Zaroastrian priests were torturing them, they sided with Arabs.

Would Muslims burn books when they were ordered to read in the first place?

Would islam armies rape women when they were ordered to refrain from lust?

Would islam armies kill people who were defensless when they were ordered to keep peace?

Don't care... But I do not say the same things to Umayyads, they were harsh against Persians.

 

Now the thing is their noble blood can not accept trhe fact that, Arabs converted them to Islam. That is only it.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 20:18

Thank You Zagros.

Saka most of your posts in this thread are nothing but instigating remarks. You are keen on critisizing and providing cheap one liners. What I would like from you is a serious discussion on why you think Zoroastrianism is the main precursor to Islam. So far there is none. Moslems attacking Persians is your concern. And you are willing to disregard AE policy to turn this discussion into a childrens playground.  I ask for improvement from you by minding the sarcasm. So what do you do? Emoticons and silly gestures. I asked for links. I did not see any. Your warning is in the mail (PM).



Edited by Seko
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 02:40
Ok, it seems it is better that we close this thread and open a new one with a proper title.
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