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Topic ClosedCommon Origin of Croats, Serbs and Jats

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Pretorian
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Common Origin of Croats, Serbs and Jats
    Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 21:32

Abstract: Croats as Hrvati, Haravaitii, Arachosians or Sarasvatians, descendants of the ancient inhabitants of the Harauti province & the Haravaiti or Sarasvati River. Their mention on legendary inscriptions of Darius the Great. Croatian flag based on the chessboard, Croatian religion derived from primordial Iranic Sun-worship. Common origin of Croats and Serbs. Their relations with the Sarmatians, Saura Matii or Surya Madas, the Solar Medes. False claims of The Indian Express refuted. Scythian or Saka origin of Jats. Consequent commmon origin of Jats, Croats and Serbs. Genetic proof for the same is presented.

It is unfortunate that Dr. Sahib Singh Verma, Union Labour Minister, was not allowed to attend the recent World Jat Conference in Belgrade ("Sahib Singh wanted to visit Serbia to meet fellow Jats, PM put his foot down and spiked his bonding-in-Belgrade plans", Indian Express, 21/9/2003). Sad indeed, because there actually do exist strong connections between Jats, Serbs and Croats. Several historians view these communities as sharing a common ethnic origin as is evident from a study of the following submissions.

Philology: Croats as Hrvatis
Let us commence our investigation with the Croats. The science of linguistics provides several connections with Iran. Thus, the Croats of Croatia call themselves "Hrvati" and their country "Hrvatska", whence the Croatian domain name on the internet is .hr. The name "Hrvati" is derived from the Avestan province "Harahvaiti" (Greek: "Arachosia"). The scientific philological argument for the identification of the Croats with the Haravatis is given in (Sakac 1955, pp. 33-36; Sakac 1949, 1937) As Dvornik notes, "P.S.Sakac thinks that he discovered the name 'Croats' in Darius' inscriptions from the sixth century B.C. There an old Persian province and people are mentioned, called Harahvaitai, Harahvatis, Horohoati..." (Dvornik 1956, p.26) Further, the Roman leader Ammanius Marcellinus mentioned that two cities arose in ancient Persia called Habroatis and Chroates. In this regard, Prof. Mandic writes,

"The Croats of the Don, then had to come in ancient times from Iran. On a stone inscription of the King Darius (522-486 B.C.) the nation of the Haruavat-is appears among the 23 subject nations. The Persian sacred books of the Avesti (Vendidad) call that nation the Harahvaiti. The provinces settled by that nation encompassed in those times the southern half of modern south Afghanistan, the whole of Baluchistan and the eastern part of modern Iran. In that ancient province ought we to look for the paleo-fatherland of the modern Croats." (Mandic 1970, Chapter 1)

Furthermore, the name of the Croatian capital, Zagreb, is related to the Zagros mountain range of Iran. The Dinara mountains in Dalmatia and the Dinar currency may be connected to Mount Dinar (Dene) of Iran. The name Serbia is similar to the Seropi or Surappi River in Elam. Moreover, certain authorities note that the name of the Carpathian mountains is derived from Croatia:

"Here the Iranian Croats mingled with the numerous local Slavic tribes and adopted the Slavic language from them. Meanwhile after the collapse of the Hunnic Empire the Croats organized the local Slavs into a state and gave them their national name. Before the invasion of the Avars ca. 560 the White or Western Croats created along with the Antes a great state extending north of the Carpathians from the upper Elbe to the upper Dniester. (35: Niederle, 263-266; Dvornik, The Slavs, 277-297) R. Heinzel is of the opinion that the Carpathians of the old Germanic Hervarsaga took their name from the Croats who called them the Harvate mountains i.e. Croatian mountains. (36: Heinzel, 499; Dvornik, op. cit., 284, sq.)" (Mandic 1970, Ch.1)

Indeed, philologists trace the migration of the Croats from Harahvati (Arachosia, Sarasvati) in the following manner using fossil place-names along the path of migration:

  • Harahvaiti and Harauvati in Iran and Afghanistan
  • Hurravat and Hurrvuhe in Armenia and Georgia
  • Horoouathos in Azova and the Black Sea
  • Present day Croats Horvati and Hrvati along the Adriatic

It is important to note that the Avesta - the sacred scriptures of the ancient Aryan Zoroastrians - mentions the lands settled by the Iranic peoples. Hapta-Hindawa (ie. the Punjab, "Sapta-Sindhu" in Prakrit) is mentioned in the Avesta amongst the Irano-Aryan lands. Even today, the Punjab is the primary home of the Jats. Since the Croats are named after the Harahvaiti or Sarasvati River, and the Jats are the present-day inhabitants of the lost Harahvaiti, it would appear that Jats and Croats would be very closely related indeed.

Vexillology
Further compelling evidence comes from vexillology (the scientific study of flags). Thus, the Croatian flag is based on the chessboard, whence many Croatian historians consider Croats as eponymic descendants of the Sassanid chess master & minister Bozorgmehr, just as the Kambojas are eponymic descendants of Cambyses and Georgians are viewed as the eponymic descendants of King George II. In this regard, Prof. Mandic notes,

"Ancient Croatian folk art bears eastern and Iranian traces, particularly the Croatian "troplets". The Croats also brought over from Iran their national coat of arms with its 64 red and white checkers. (11: Strzycowskyi, 15-63, 156-181; Dado-Peranic, op.cit., 21-24; Mandic Hrvatski kockasti grb, 639-652)" (Mandic 1970, Ch.1)

Furthermore,

"The organization of the state among the southern Croats with the king, bans and zupans at its head similar to that of the northern Croats; in addition the religion, national customs, dress and arts of the southern Croats bear Iranian traces, just like the Croats in the north. " (Mandic 1970, ch.3)

Indeed, a total of 120 Croat and non-Croat university professors and several academics have published 249 research works elaborating the Old Iranic origin of Croats (Tomicic 1998).

Folklore
A researcher notes similarities in folklore as well,

"There are old Croatian customs and national poems that have been cited as evidencing lingering traces of the fire and sun worship of the Iranians. Fire, the essence of human origin, the sun, and the great boiling cauldron around which the warriors spring in the age old kolo or circle dance, all these are ingredients in the national lore of the Croatian nation. The Croat vilas or fairy witches resemble the peris of Iranian mythology. Then there is the legendary Sviato zov, the personification of strength, a being almost too huge for the earth to bear. He is strongly reminiscent of the "elephant-bodied" Rustum of Persian legend." (Guldescu 1964, pt.1.II)

Research studies on Croatian clothing reveals similarities with Sassanian and other Iranic styles both in terms of male and female clothing.


White Croatia, Red Croatia, Green Croatia
The Iranic origin of Croats is in fact the only way one can comprehend the traditional distinction existing between White Croatia, Red Croatia and Green Croatia:

"After the Iranian fashion the ancient Croats ascribed a specific colour to each of the four cardinal points of the compass in the territory which they inhabited. The colour white designated the west, red the south, green the east, and black the north. (10: Saussure, Le Systeme 235-297; idem, L'origine des noms 23; Sakac, op. cit., 37-40) Hence White or West Croatia, Red or South Croatia and Green or East Croatia." (Mandic 1970, Ch.1)

Further, Dobrovich notes,

"It should be noted that only the thesis of the Iranian origin of the Croats can explain the name "Horvath", the title of a Croat dignitary Banus, the names "White" and "Red Croatian", and the Bogumile phenomenon. According to this theory, the Croats were a branch of the Caucasian Iranians, who lived somewhere in the western Caucasus during the era of the Roman Emperors. The Caucasian Anten were another branch of this group." (Dobrovich 1963)

Let us conclude this section on Croats with the words of the learned Prof. Mandic: "The oldest historical evidence, the ancient Croatian social organization, religion, national customs and art indicate that the Croats are of Iranian origin." (Mandic 1970, Concl.)

Sarmatians, Sauro Matii, Surya Madras or Solar Medes
Now, the exact path of migration of the Croats from Iran to the Balkans is still disputed. Some hold that they migrated via Anatolia, others that they migrated via Central Asia and the Pontic region. Some of the latter historians link the Sarmatians with the Croats and Jats. Thus, Dvornik traces both Serbs and Croats back to the Sarmatians of Southern Russia (Dvornik 1956). The Sarmatians were generally identified as Scythians. Thus, Sulimirski, author of "The Sarmatians" also makes mention of the referral of the Emperor's to the Belochrobati or White Croats who "exhibited certain Sarmatian characteristics ... [they were] of Iranian origin" (Sulimirski 1970, p.190-1) Their interest to history stems from the fact that their matriarchial Scythian society probably formed the basis of the Greek legends of the Amazons. In this connection, it is interesting to note numerous reference to the fighting ability, combat skills, bravery and great freedom of Jat women - the Jat amazons.

The name Sarmatian is an Anglicization of the original Sauro Matii, the Latin form of the Prakrit Surya Madra or Surya Mada. The name means "Solar Medes", in English, another testimony to the worship of Surya, or Cyrus, the Asshur of Assyria, the Ahura Mazda of the Zoroastrians, the splendid Sun-god of the Iranic peoples. In this regard, Mandic notes,

"Indeed from the end of the I to III century A.D. in the city-state of Tanais, in the region of the Don, lived various Iranian tribes of Samatians as well as Croats who must have been Iranians. (4: Concerning the Iranian tribes in present-day southeastern Russia around the Don and the Iranian origin of the Croats, see: Niederle, I, 321-434; Rostovtzeff; Vasmer, I; Hauptmann; Nartical; Sakac, 313-340; Dabo-Peranic. For a summary of the theories on the Croatian name see: Sisic, Povijest Hrvata 238-240) Furthermore the national name "Croat" is of Iranian origin. According to the Russian Vselod Miller the name "Croat" comes from the Iranian word Hor-va (t)u meaning: the sun's bed or path. (5. Miller, 259 sq.) M. Vasmer derives the Croatian name from Hu-urvata meaning, "friend". (6. Vasmer, op. cit., 56) And the terms used to designate the high officials among the Croats, "kral, ban, zupan", are of Iranian origin. (7 Sakac, The Iranian origins of the Croats, 30-46; RP 195-201) (Mandic 1970, Chapter 1)

Slovaks & Jats
Prof. Mandic notes, "The great resemblance between the Croatian and Slovak languages tell us that the Croats for the most part moved south from northern Slovakia. For they are far nearer to each other in affinity than to any other Slavic language." (Mandic 1970, Ch.1) Thus, the Slovaks would also share the same Saka origins as the Croats and Jats.

Bosnia
Regarding the roots of Bosnians, Dodan notes that Bosnia is historically a Croatian land, that Bosnia belonged to Croatia in the early mediaeval times, that the majority of Bosnian population used to be and are still Croats, and that mediaeval Bosnian kings were ethnic Croats. Even their surnames end in "-an". Dodan quotes Draganovic's and Mandic's research according to which 95 % of Muslims and 30% of Serbs are actually Croats. He also elucidates the Iranian roots of the Croatian people (Dodan 1994).

Serbs
Now, we turn to the connection with the Serbs. Several historians maintain that the Serbian ruling caste shared the same origin as the Croats. Prof. Malcolm recently wrote a book "Bosnia" (Malcolm 1996), in which he clearly elucidates the Iranic origin of both Serbs and Croats. For instance, Prof. Salzman notes while reviewing Malcolm's first chapter:

"The Croats and Serbs (who were either Slavic tribes with Iranian ruling castes or Iranian tribes with Slavic subjects) arrived in the Balkans in the 620s, a land already occupied by the Slavs." (Salzman 1999)

The view of Prof. Malcolm is thus that the Croats and Serbs were originally Iranic speakers who adopted a Slavic language (Malcolm 1996). Examples of a conquering immigrant group adopting the language of its surrounding subjects abound in history. For example, the Scandinavian Normans adopted the Romance French language in Normandy, while their ruling kinsmen in England adopted Anglo-Saxon; the Germanic Franks, Merovingians and Carolingians adopted the Romance French language; the Nordic Visigoths adopted the Romance Spanish language; the Germanic Lombards adopted the Romance Italian language, and the Tungus Manchu adopted the Chinese language of their subjects. Likewise, the Jats were originally speakers of Scythian or East Iranic languages, who subsequently adopted an Indo-Aryan language. Hence, that the Iranic Croats and Serbs should adopt a Slavic language would not be unusual in any way.

The Croats were also commonly named by the medieval chroniclers as "Goths":

"The old Croatian chronicle 'The Kingdom of the Croats' and the 'Chronicle of Pop Dukljanin', based on Croatian national tradition and on the ancient records, states that the Croats whom they misnamed the Goths arrived for the north through Pannonia and Templana (6) in Dalmatia, which they conquered and settled. (7)" (Mandic 1970, ch.3)

This is important because the ethnonym "Jat" is widely considered a variant of "Goth" and its Greco-Latin variant "Getae". In this connection, Prof. Lozinski notes: (Lozinski 1964, Vernadsky 1952)

"Professor Vernadsky [25. Vernadsky, G., Ancient Russia (New Haven, 1951), pp. 50-55; an older, less scholarly attempt in this direction: Cuno, J. G., Forschungen im Gebiete der alten Voelkerkunde. Die Skythen (Berlin, 1870), pp. 225-286] was the first, in modern times, to suggest that the Slavs had direct Iranian antecedents. The derivation of both names from religious designations, as suggested above, may be considered as additional evidence, especially as most of the Slavic gods bear purely Iranian, or Indian, names. [26. Vernadsky, G., Kievan Russia (New Haven, 1951), pp. 50-55; Krappe, A. N., "La chute du paganisme a Kiev," Revue des eludes slaves, XVII (1937), 208. Rozwadowski, J., "Stosunki leksykalne miedzy jazykami slowianskimi a iranskiemi," Rocznik orientalistyczny, I (1914/15), 95-110, esp. 110] One of the Slavic groups, the Poles, called themselves Sarmatians; this name was recorded very early in Western Medieval chronicles [27. Ulewicz, T., "Okolo genealogii sarmatyzmu," Pamietnik slowianski, I, (1949), 105-107], which lends credence to the traditions recorded in Polish chronicles edited at the waning of the Middle Ages, according to which they were in touch with the Iranians. [28. Bohomolec, F., Zbior dziejow polskich (Warszawa, 1767-68), III, Cromer M., Kronika, 5, 17, 19, 28; IV, Guagnino, A., Kronika Sarmucyey europeyskiey, 1 f., 7, 13, 16, 513.; Magistri Vincenti ep. Cracoviensis, Chronica Polonorum, ed. A. Przeidziecki (Krakow, 1862), 76 (cf. Paszkiewicz, op. cit., 360); Bielski, M., Kronika Polska (N. ed., Krakow, 1597), Introduction, passim., cf. Chrzanowski, I., Marcin Bielski (Lwow, 1926), 101-108, 504. ] In Antiquity the Sarmatians, as is well known, were the Alans. [29. Vernadsky 1952] The meaning of the name "Sarmata" in Iranian is the "council." [30. Vernadsky, G., and Dzanty, Dzambulant, "The Ossetian Tale of Iry Dada and Mstislav," Journal of American Folklore, LXIX (1956), 234, n. 39.] It refers not to the nationality or language, but to the social organization of the Alans, ruled by a supreme council, appointing the king. [31. Strabo, XI, ix, 3.] The role of the council in early Slavic history is well known, especially among the Western Slavs. Thus the social, or political, organization of the Iranian Alans and Polish Slavs offers evidence of their affiliation." (Lozinski 1964)

Bulgarians
It may also be stated that several scholars have noticed Iranic elements amongst the Proto-Bulgarians. (Beshevliev 1967, Schmitt 1985)

Anthropology
The Iranic or Irano-Aryan race as a whole is dolichocephalic (long-headed), leptorrhine (having long, narrow noses), tall, robust, dark-haired, large-boned and fair-skinned with straight hair. These features are found amongst the Jats, Pathans, Persians, Rajputs and Kurds. Due to the common features of Iranic skeletons with Nordics, some authorities consider the Nordics and Iranics as belonging to a common Nordic-Iranian macro-race. It is a further strong support for the Iranic origin of Croats that the Croats, and indeed, West Slavs in general, display strong Iranic racial features.

Thus, the majority of Croatians today tend to be tall statured, with narrow facial features. Many historians consider these western Slavic features to be a trait passed on from the Iranic tribes mentioned above. The Alans in particular are thought to have had considerable impact on the Croatian racial "type". Now, there are three sub-types of Croats proper: Dinaric (Iranoid race), Mediterranean (Latinoid race) and Panonian (Slavoid race) The Dinaric type to which many Croats belong is often viewed as an Iranic sub-type:

"In the central mountainous regions settled by the Croats upon their arrival on the Adriatic the Dinaric type of Croat developed. This type is quite remote from the general Slavic type. The Dinaric Croats are tall in stature (ca. 1.8 metres), long-headed but with a skull of short circumference (cephalic index of 80-85)." (Mandic 1970, ch.3)

The main feature of the Dinaric sub-type of Iranics is that the head is long when viewed from front, but the circumference is short, giving the illusion of brachcephaly when viewed from the top. It is common amongst Armenians as well, and is often viewed as a breeding isolate of the Iranoid race.

Refuting the view that the Croatians were of Illyrian or Roman stock, Mandic notes, ".... Nevertheless one has to say that the contribution of the local Romanized remnants [Illyrian] of the prehistoric Dinaric folk, hardly amounted to more than 20% to 30% in forming the Dinaric Croat." (Mandic 1970, ch.3) These Mediterranean Croats are "intermediary in stature, a little smaller than the Dinaric type. They have quite oval skulls, dark hair and eyes and an olive complexion."

The Panonian Croats, however, are largely descendants of the Slavic populations. The Slavoid race in general (to be distinguished from the speakers of Slavic languages) is short-statured, brachycephalic (round-headed), with blond hair. Thus,

"When the Croats conquered Lower Pannonia and Savia they at one began to assimilate with the Kaikavian Slavs of those areas. Out of that came the third type of Croat, the Pannonian, of intermediate stature, blond hair, ruddy complexion and of a rather sizeable cephalic index. .... [A] conspicuous type of Pannonian Croat was preserved up until this day. They of all the Croats are the closest to the general Slavic type in their physical and psychological make-up. (88)" (Mandic 1970)

Thus, the round-headed blond Panonian Croats are not members of the Iranoid race, but instead are of the round-headed Slavoid race. They are, however, outnumbered by the Iranic or Dinaric Croats, who form the dominant element of Croatia
Genetics
A scholarly Croatian society called ZDPPH recently held a conference on the Iranic origin of Croats, where genetic evidence was presented. According to the society's president Nedjeljko Kujundzic, "Swedish geneticists have confirmed, in 75 percent of cases, that Croats are of Iranian origin." (Hina 2000) Two days after the news conference, the book "Indo-Iranian Origin of Croats" by Mate Marcinko was released in which much additional proof was presented.

Croatian elements among Serbs
Furthermore, even if the Serbs represent primarily the descendants of round-headed Slavs, there has been much Croat infusion into the Serb genetic stock. Thus, Mandic estimates that one-third of Serbs are ethnically Croat:

"Our investigations have led us to believe that of the Serbs presently in Bosnia and Herzegovina 32 to 35% are descended from Orthodox Croats, 50 to 52% are from non-Slavic Wallachs, 6 to 7% are from Serbianized Bulgarians, Greeks, Armenians and Albanians and 8 to 10% from genuine ethnic Serbs who came there mainly during Austro-Hungarian rule and during the time of the two Yugoslavias. (Mandic 1970, ch.7)

Jats
Where do the Jats come into this? Now, the Jats are generally held to be of Scythian descent. The Jat-Sikhs are also of Saka descent, for indeed the very name "Sikh" is derived from "Saka" (Sara 1978). Noted historian Satya Shrava notes, "The Jats are none other than the Massagetae (Great Getae) mentioned in Diodorus as an off-spring of the ancient Saka tribe.... a fact now well-known" (Shrava 1981, p.2-3). Eminent scholars like Tod, Toynbee, Trevaskis, Keene, Kephart, Dhillon, Dahiya, Prakash and Bingley directly or indirectly connected Jat, Goths and Scythians. Thus, the famed Anglo-American historian Toynbee notes:

"It may not be fantastic to conjecture that the Tuetonic-speaking Goths and Gauts of Scandinavia may have been descended from a fragment of the same Indo-European-speaking tribe as the homonymous Getae and Thyssagetae and Massagetae of the Eurasian Steppe who are represented today by the Jats of the Panjab." (Toynbee 1934, p.435).

Furthermore, some scholars hold that the Scythians and Iranics originated in the Punjab and from thence migrated across the world. Whatever the details of the original home of the Iranoid race itself, all scholars agree that the Jats, Serbs and Croats predominantly belong to the same ethnic stock.

Conclusion
It is a pity that Dr. K.S.Singh, former DG, Anthropological Survey of India, erroneously asserted there was no Jat-Serb connection (Indian Express, 21/9/2003). Compounding this, he went further and wrongly bracketed Jats into what he called an "Indo-Pak stock". This is a term non-existent in standard anthropology. Indeed, Pakistan was first created in 1947. How can the DG's hypothetical "Indo-Pak stock" by any stretch of the imagination refer to ancient history? The length of this article has been necessitated in order to provide sufficient counterweight to the DG's misleading statements. He is invited to read the references contained in this article and correct himself.

It is thus clear, Belgrade was indeed an appropriate choice for the location of the World Jat Congress. This article amply shows that close kinsmen of the Jats abound all across the Balkans and Eastern Europe. Now, given the tragic recent history of the Serb-Croat divide during the break-up of Yugoslavia, it might be more advisable to first establish Jatism in Croatia, for it is in Croatia that the Iranic connection has recently become official history. Sadly, Serbian historians are still split between the Slavic and Iranic theories. Once the first base has been established in Croatia, one may look beyond to the surrounding regions to develop further Jat connections in the Balkans.
Genetics
A scholarly Croatian society called ZDPPH recently held a conference on the Iranic origin of Croats, where genetic evidence was presented. According to the society's president Nedjeljko Kujundzic, "Swedish geneticists have confirmed, in 75 percent of cases, that Croats are of Iranian origin." (Hina 2000) Two days after the news conference, the book "Indo-Iranian Origin of Croats" by Mate Marcinko was released in which much additional proof was presented.

Croatian elements among Serbs
Furthermore, even if the Serbs represent primarily the descendants of round-headed Slavs, there has been much Croat infusion into the Serb genetic stock. Thus, Mandic estimates that one-third of Serbs are ethnically Croat:

"Our investigations have led us to believe that of the Serbs presently in Bosnia and Herzegovina 32 to 35% are descended from Orthodox Croats, 50 to 52% are from non-Slavic Wallachs, 6 to 7% are from Serbianized Bulgarians, Greeks, Armenians and Albanians and 8 to 10% from genuine ethnic Serbs who came there mainly during Austro-Hungarian rule and during the time of the two Yugoslavias. (Mandic 1970, ch.7)

Jats
Where do the Jats come into this? Now, the Jats are generally held to be of Scythian descent. The Jat-Sikhs are also of Saka descent, for indeed the very name "Sikh" is derived from "Saka" (Sara 1978). Noted historian Satya Shrava notes, "The Jats are none other than the Massagetae (Great Getae) mentioned in Diodorus as an off-spring of the ancient Saka tribe.... a fact now well-known" (Shrava 1981, p.2-3). Eminent scholars like Tod, Toynbee, Trevaskis, Keene, Kephart, Dhillon, Dahiya, Prakash and Bingley directly or indirectly connected Jat, Goths and Scythians. Thus, the famed Anglo-American historian Toynbee notes:

"It may not be fantastic to conjecture that the Tuetonic-speaking Goths and Gauts of Scandinavia may have been descended from a fragment of the same Indo-European-speaking tribe as the homonymous Getae and Thyssagetae and Massagetae of the Eurasian Steppe who are represented today by the Jats of the Panjab." (Toynbee 1934, p.435).

Furthermore, some scholars hold that the Scythians and Iranics originated in the Punjab and from thence migrated across the world. Whatever the details of the original home of the Iranoid race itself, all scholars agree that the Jats, Serbs and Croats predominantly belong to the same ethnic stock.

Conclusion
It is a pity that Dr. K.S.Singh, former DG, Anthropological Survey of India, erroneously asserted there was no Jat-Serb connection (Indian Express, 21/9/2003). Compounding this, he went further and wrongly bracketed Jats into what he called an "Indo-Pak stock". This is a term non-existent in standard anthropology. Indeed, Pakistan was first created in 1947. How can the DG's hypothetical "Indo-Pak stock" by any stretch of the imagination refer to ancient history? The length of this article has been necessitated in order to provide sufficient counterweight to the DG's misleading statements. He is invited to read the references contained in this article and correct himself.

It is thus clear, Belgrade was indeed an appropriate choice for the location of the World Jat Congress. This article amply shows that close kinsmen of the Jats abound all across the Balkans and Eastern Europe. Now, given the tragic recent history of the Serb-Croat divide during the break-up of Yugoslavia, it might be more advisable to first establish Jatism in Croatia, for it is in Croatia that the Iranic connection has recently become official history. Sadly, Serbian historians are still split between the Slavic and Iranic theories. Once the first base has been established in Croatia, one may look beyond to the surrounding regions to develop further Jat connections in the Balkans.



Life is beautiful but I am darker then Life.

Iran Aziz Janam Fadayt

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Pretorian
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 21:33
Genetics
A scholarly Croatian society called ZDPPH recently held a conference on the Iranic origin of Croats, where genetic evidence was presented. According to the society's president Nedjeljko Kujundzic, "Swedish geneticists have confirmed, in 75 percent of cases, that Croats are of Iranian origin." (Hina 2000) Two days after the news conference, the book "Indo-Iranian Origin of Croats" by Mate Marcinko was released in which much additional proof was presented.

Croatian elements among Serbs
Furthermore, even if the Serbs represent primarily the descendants of round-headed Slavs, there has been much Croat infusion into the Serb genetic stock. Thus, Mandic estimates that one-third of Serbs are ethnically Croat:
"Our investigations have led us to believe that of the Serbs presently in Bosnia and Herzegovina 32 to 35% are descended from Orthodox Croats, 50 to 52% are from non-Slavic Wallachs, 6 to 7% are from Serbianized Bulgarians, Greeks, Armenians and Albanians and 8 to 10% from genuine ethnic Serbs who came there mainly during Austro-Hungarian rule and during the time of the two Yugoslavias. (Mandic 1970, ch.7)
Jats
Where do the Jats come into this? Now, the Jats are generally held to be of Scythian descent. The Jat-Sikhs are also of Saka descent, for indeed the very name "Sikh" is derived from "Saka" (Sara 1978). Noted historian Satya Shrava notes, "The Jats are none other than the Massagetae (Great Getae) mentioned in Diodorus as an off-spring of the ancient Saka tribe.... a fact now well-known" (Shrava 1981, p.2-3). Eminent scholars like Tod, Toynbee, Trevaskis, Keene, Kephart, Dhillon, Dahiya, Prakash and Bingley directly or indirectly connected Jat, Goths and Scythians. Thus, the famed Anglo-American historian Toynbee notes:
"It may not be fantastic to conjecture that the Tuetonic-speaking Goths and Gauts of Scandinavia may have been descended from a fragment of the same Indo-European-speaking tribe as the homonymous Getae and Thyssagetae and Massagetae of the Eurasian Steppe who are represented today by the Jats of the Panjab." (Toynbee 1934, p.435).

Furthermore, some scholars hold that the Scythians and Iranics originated in the Punjab and from thence migrated across the world. Whatever the details of the original home of the Iranoid race itself, all scholars agree that the Jats, Serbs and Croats predominantly belong to the same ethnic stock.

Conclusion
It is a pity that Dr. K.S.Singh, former DG, Anthropological Survey of India, erroneously asserted there was no Jat-Serb connection (Indian Express, 21/9/2003). Compounding this, he went further and wrongly bracketed Jats into what he called an "Indo-Pak stock". This is a term non-existent in standard anthropology. Indeed, Pakistan was first created in 1947. How can the DG's hypothetical "Indo-Pak stock" by any stretch of the imagination refer to ancient history? The length of this article has been necessitated in order to provide sufficient counterweight to the DG's misleading statements. He is invited to read the references contained in this article and correct himself.

It is thus clear, Belgrade was indeed an appropriate choice for the location of the World Jat Congress. This article amply shows that close kinsmen of the Jats abound all across the Balkans and Eastern Europe. Now, given the tragic recent history of the Serb-Croat divide during the break-up of Yugoslavia, it might be more advisable to first establish Jatism in Croatia, for it is in Croatia that the Iranic connection has recently become official history. Sadly, Serbian historians are still split between the Slavic and Iranic theories. Once the first base has been established in Croatia, one may look beyond to the surrounding regions to develop further Jat connections in the Balkans.

By: Dr. Samar Abbas, Bhubaneshwar, India
Jat Jyoti, Vol.4 no.11 (Nov. 2003) p.13-18.
(Magazine of the World Jat Aryan Foundation, 248, Ram Krishna Vihar, 29, IP Extension, Delhi-110 092)

References:

  1. Beshevliev 1967: "Iranian elements in the Proto-Bulgarians" by V. Beshevliev (in Bulgarian)(Antichnoe Obschestvo, Trudy Konferencii po izucheniyu problem antichnosti, str. 237-247, Izdatel'stvo "Nauka", Moskva 1967, AN SSSR, Otdelenie Istorii) http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/fadlan/besh.html
  2. Dobrovich 1963: "Volk an der Grenze - Schicksal und Auftrag. Zur Geschichte der burgenlaendischen Kroaten," (People on the Border - History of the Burgenland Croats), by Johann Dobrovich, Burgenlaendische Forschungen, vol.47, Prov. Archive of Burgenland, Eisenstadt 1963, tr by Frank Teklits; http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/BURGENLAND-NEWSLETTER/1 999-07/0931520170
  3. Dodan 1994: "Bosna and Hercegovina, a Croatian land", by Sime Dodan, Meditor, Zagreb, 1994.
  4. Dvornik 1956: "The Slavs. Their Early History and Civilization." by F. Dvornik, American Academy of Arts and Sciences, Boston, USA., 1956.
  5. Guldescu 1964: "History of Medieval Croatia", by Stanko Guldescu, Mouton (pub), The Hague, 1964; http://www.raceandhistory.com/Science/croatia.htm
  6. Hina 2000: "Scholars assert Croats are Descendants of Iranian Tribes", Hina News Agency, Zagreb, Oct 15, 2000 (http://www.hina.hr)
  7. Lozinksi 1964: "The Name Slav" by B. Philip Lozinski (Essays in Russian History, Archon Books,1964) http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/fadlan/lozinski.html
  8. Malcolm 1996: "Bosnia: A Short History", by Noel Malcolm, New York University Press, New York, 1994; 1996, new ed.
  9. Mandic 1970: "Croats and Serbs - Two old and different nations," by Dr. O. Dominik Mandic, Chicago 1970, Nakladni Zavod Matice Hrvatske, Zagreb, 1990; tr. Vicko Rendic & Jacques Perret, http://www.magma.ca/~rendic/
  10. Sakac 1937: "Del origen caucaso-iranio de los croatas" ("Of the Caucasian-Iranian ancestry of the Croats") by S. Sakac, Zagreb 1937.
  11. Sakac 1949: "Iranisehe Herkunft des kroatischen Volksnamens", ("Iranian origin of the Croatian Ethnonym") S. Sakac, Orientalia Christiana Periodica. XV (1949), 813-340.
  12. Sakac 1955: "The Iranian origin of the Croatians according to Constantine Porphyrogenitus", by S. Sakac, in "The Croatian nation in its struggle for freedom and independence" (Chicago, 1955); for other works by Sakac, cf. "Prof. Dr. Stjepan Krizin Sakac - In memoriam" by Milan Blazekovic, http://www.studiacroatica.com/revistas/050/0500501.htm
  13. Salzman 1999: "Book Review: Noel Malcolm, Bosnia" by Todd Salzman, Creighton Univ.; J. Religion & Society, Vol.1 (1999), http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/1999/1999-r1.html
  14. Sara 1978: "The Scythian Origin of the Jat-Sikh", I.Sara, The Sikh Review, 1978, pp. 15-27 (pt.1), pp. 214-233 (pt.2) (http://www.sikhreview.org)
  15. Schmitt 1985: "Iranica Proto-Bulgarica" (in German), Academie Bulgare des Sciences, Linguistique Balkanique, XXVIII (1985), l, p.13-38; http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/bulgar/schmitt.html
  16. Shrava 1981: "The Sakas in India", S.Shrava, Pranava Prakashan, New Delhi 1981.
  17. Sulimirski 1970: "The Sarmatians," by T.Sulimirski, Thames & Hudson, London, UK, 1970.
  18. Tomicic 1998: "The old-Iranian origin of Croats", Symposium proceedings, Zagreb 24.6.1998, ed. Prof. Zlatko Tomicic & Andrija-Zeljko Lovric, Cultural center of I.R. of Iran in Croatia, Zagreb, 1999, ISBN 953-6301-05-5, http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/croats2.PDF
  19. Toynbee 1934: "A Study of History," by A. Toynbee, Vol. 2., Oxford University Press, London, 1939, 1st pubd in 1934; cited by Sunny Singh (pers. comm.)
  20. Vernadsky 1952: "Der sarmatische Hintergrund der germanischen Voelkerwanderung," (Sarmatian background of the Germanic Migrations), G. Vernadsky, Saeculum, II (1952), 340-347.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 01:31
"I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 02:00
opps sorry, how do I close this topic down?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 02:04
Wait I do not claim them to be anything, just the common ancestory, I do not claim them to be Iranian, that is a very debated and contreversial issue.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 02:19
Again? This is a nonsense.

Genetic Yugoslav types are similar to those of the other Balcano-Danubian area: Hungarian, Bulgarian and Romanian. And they are intermediate between Poland and Greece-Turkey.

All that alleged evidence is lacking an esential thing: archaeological findings that would connect Europe with Iran in the sense you mean. Nothing of the like is ever presented and the conenctions are all very feeble.

Even if there was something to that unlikely theory, it could only afect a minimal elite and not the whole population that, as said above is typical of their region.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 02:47

I agree with you Calip, it does not really matter if there is a connection or not. I have heard some Croatians agreeing with it, but majority disagreeing and there is validity in their arguements.

I would love someone to present the arguement against this theory with references so I can better educate myself with it. So if you have it, someone out there who has the counter arguement or counter to this theory please put it up or give it to me.

I do not mean to offend anyone, that is why the author and reference is put foward. If I offend any Croatians or Serbs I am sorry.

This is more of a arguement to commanyality of Slavs and Croatins in my opinion. That the two are the same and not different.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 04:09

The Slavic peoples most definitely have a connection to the historical Iranian steppe peoples.  This has been proven through the modern study of genetics.  The genetic marker associated with the Iranian steppe nomads has shown up in a high percentage in only two populations in the world: the peoples of the Indus valley region and the peoples of east central Europe. 

Why are people so afraid of the truth?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 05:05
Originally posted by Scytho-Sarmatian

The Slavic peoples most definitely have a connection to the historical Iranian steppe peoples.  This has been proven through the modern study of genetics.  The genetic marker associated with the Iranian steppe nomads has shown up in a high percentage in only two populations in the world: the peoples of the Indus valley region and the peoples of east central Europe. 

Why are people so afraid of the truth?



Let's not mix things, please: who are the Iranian steppe nomads? Indo-Iranians? Scythians? Early Indo-Europeans? Late Turco-Mongol nomads?

While it's clear that steppary genetic markers, most specifically PC4 (concentrated in the Don basin, not in Iran or wherever), do have a somehow greater presence in Eastern Europe (All Central-Eastern Europe, including Rumanians, for instance), this proves no Iranian connection and much less for Croats specifically. It's just a logical thing: if succesive waves of steppary nomads, mainly the first wave of IE nomads that brought all Western IE languages to Europe had the Don basin as main original region, it's normal that those regions earlier and most intensely affected by the first migrations have some stronger presence of those genotypes.

What shows is that, genetically, Eastern Europeans are somehow closer to the original Western IEs who sprung from the Don area.

This has nothing to do with the term Iranian or with the term Slavic or Croat. Balto-Slavic languages definitively belong to the Western branch of IE that is: it's European branch), while Indo-Iranian languages form the Eastern branch of IE, that is the Asian one. Some IE languages, such as Armenian, Albanian and possibly Greek would not belong to either branch.

In any case, neither linguistics nor genetics nor much less archaeology, prove any direct Medieval connection between Iran and Croatia. Croats are just another Slavic branch and therefore it comes from the Poland-belarus region, where the protoSlavic nation existed with clear archaeological contiunity, coincident with linguistical classification, since at least the Bronze Age.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 06:05

Yes Caliph you are right, but genetic tests on Iranians also prove there is a link between central eastern europe, caucas and central asia. But that a side, The term Iranain tribes is used due to the drop of the term Aryan tribes, but it isok I accept Slavs, Croatian's etc are not from Aryan stock! Like you aregued there is no evidence.

Iranian stock literally means Aryan stock, since second world war the use of Aryan to describe the race has been dropped due to the painful memories of WW2. It has been replaced with Iranian. As for The term Indo-Eruopean this term has been slowly faded out as Europe was not an original source for most europeans, ie Celts, iranian tribes, Saxons etc etc

A lot of Archaeologists are refuting infact in the process of not using indo-european tribes anymore or languages, now it is being called Indo-Iranian tribes and Indo-Iranian languages. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 07:00
Maju-

You are trying to confuse the issue by mixing in a lot of labels and trying to debate their validity.  I agree that some of these labels are debateable.  What is not debateable is the proven fact that there is a STRONG genetic link between the peoples of the northwestern Indian subcontinent and the peoples of east central Europe (i.e. Slavs and some Germanics), which is much stronger than any such asiatic link with most people in Western Europe.  That's just the genetic evidence, not including the vast amount of historical, archaeological, linguistic, cultural, etc. evidence. 

How did this connection come about? The only logical explanation is that historically, there had been a movement of a significant number of people between central and southern Asia and central and eastern Europe.  The genetic evidence is strongly represented in the modern population of these regions.  Why is this so hard to accept?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 07:30

Dunno man, why is it hard for saxons to accept that saxons are an Iranian tribe and that 15,000 Sarmatians were employed by the Romans to guard Adrian wall and never left, they remained in Central England.

It is hard for Iranians to accept the glory days are gone, it is hard for Arabs to accept Jews are the same race as them, it is hard for Egyptians to accept there is African mixing with them, not just Near eastern.... Hard for most people to now accept that Celts a central Asia tribe never actaully migrated to the English islands in fact their culture and language just got adopted that is all......

The truth is always hard for people to accept for most people.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 07:50
Genetic connections show most likely Paleolithic and Neolithic migrations, not recent migrations such as that of IEs, because they were always minorities wherever they arrived, mixing therefore with locals. It's well known that both in Paleolithic and Neolithic times migrational waves sprung from SW Asia. Some studies seem now to give more weight to the Paleolithic migrations but the Neolithic ones should also be considered.

So what links Europe with the Middle East is (over all) something rather old, of the same sort of what makes all us Caucasians.

I don't know where do you get from that Celts or Saxons aren't European in origin. They are definitively European and the same can be said about the other Western IEs speaking peoples, at least since the division between western and eastern IE tongues took place. Notice that I'm not talking about genetics, what would show more Europe-Asia diferences but about IE languages that are closer.

The term Indo-European has not been dropped at all. It is the oficial name for the best studied linguistic family, comprising most modern European languages (western branch, except Albanian and maybe Greek), all Indo-Iranian languages (eastern branch) plus Armenian. The term Indo-Aryan is used to refer to IE languages of the Indian subcontinent that are rather diferent from those of the Irano-Afghan area (Iranian tongues).

In any case, Aryan is a term only found historically in India and Iran. It makes no sense to use it in Europe (apart of the Nazi abuse and the aristocratic meaning).

Btw, my handle is not Caliph, but Maju. Caliph means 5 stars (many posts).

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 08:14
Obfuscations and more obfuscations...
Give me a break with this neolithic B.S.! I mean, you might be a cave man, but that doesn't mean you should lay your inferiority complex on me!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 08:57

LOL about the migration there is evidence that Celts and Saxons came out of Central asian, look at this book 'Patterns in Prehistory; Humankinds first three million years Fourth Edition by Robert J.Wenke... This is a University book, Students who study European archaeology are required to read this book, it is the core reader for this paper 'Anthro 221 European History; From Cave arts to the Celts' at the University of Auckland, it even comes with a CD.... And is also a core book for people studying archaeology of Europe in the US...... Also migration patterns from Central Asia and Domestication is what I actually Study in Archaeology.... I base it on research at university....unfortunately I have to surf the web to get things to paste here for all of you... one mainly I am to busy and lazy to write everything down from my book.

But it is a Known Archaeological FACt that Celts came out of Central Asia, Also a KNOWN fact that Saxons did too, not just by linguistics..... Central Europe was settled by people who the Greeks called Babarians because they spoke in babble, Greeks could not understand them hence Babarian.

Well Nazi propoganda or not it is being used now, slowly the Indo European conecpt is taken out because Europe was stelled by various peoples, Medeterreanians, and Central Asians.... Actually Northern Europe was uninhabitable....(not going into the details).

Also the fact that mirros were found in Burial mounds from China and other grave goods from various regions showed mobility.... Aryans/iranians domesticated the horse and were the first horse riders in the world. Domesticated approx 4000BC in what is Modern Ukraine, Iranian tribes migrated and left people behind as well as invading places, they did not invade till later but more migrated.

I can get some references if you wish to Prove this point? But coming from an Archaeological pespective and not a historian one..... Grave goods, weaponary and use of metals as well as luxury items and funery or burils mounds and types determines the connections.

Later migration did more impact yes, but Iranian Tribes were pushed further out west by the rising Turkish tribes which later pushed most Iranian (Aryan) tribes from the Caucas Central Asia and eastern europe....

 

Read the book by Wenke

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 09:54
so Volga bulgars where iranian also? Turks also?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 12:53
Originally posted by Scytho-Sarmatian

Obfuscations and more obfuscations...
Give me a break with this neolithic B.S.! I mean, you might be a cave man, but that doesn't mean you should lay your inferiority complex on me!


Sorry, it is you who is making unfounded claims. Do you think that when, for instance Arabs or Mongols or Greeks entered in Iran they wiped out the whole population and replaced it by their own kin? Absolutely not. This is the normal case, genocidal colonizations like that of parts of America or Australia are the exception and are basically limited to these two examples with not a single equivalent in whole history nor (most probably) prehistory.

Besides, if you were minimally interested in Anthropology and not just in your own preconceptions, you would have read other very interesting topics in this subforum where the question of how the genetic makeup of Europe (and other places) was formed. And the best genetists seem to agree that it was the Paleolithic period when this happened, though the Neolithic helped to sharpen the diferences somehow.

I would look for the very interesting paper posted by either Arfunda or Leonidas, I can't recall right now, but it is very clear that you are not interested.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 13:05
Originally posted by Aryan Khadem

LOL about the migration there is evidence that Celts and Saxons came out of Central asian, look at this book 'Patterns in Prehistory; Humankinds first three million years Fourth Edition by Robert J.Wenke... This is a University book, Students who study European archaeology are required to read this book, it is the core reader for this paper 'Anthro 221 European History; From Cave arts to the Celts' at the University of Auckland, it even comes with a CD.... And is also a core book for people studying archaeology of Europe in the US......



I think you are confusing IEs with their offsprings. It is very likely, and I agree with it, that European IEs came from Central Asia but at that time we can't speak of Saxons, Celts, Greeks or Romans: all we can talk of is Indo-Europeans and sometimes with not little doubts.

According to what I know, the main Western IE group settled in what is now Poland, Germany and nearby regions in the Early and Middle Chalcolithic period. In that area was where they got diferentiated, though the exact proccess is not 100% clear. After a milennia of quietness, around 1300 BCE (Late Bronze) they expanded elsewhere quite quickly.

In any case, while you can say perfectly that IEs were original from Central Asia, you can't say that those specific IE nations were alien to Europe: that's a clearly erroneous understanding of the process of IE expansion and diferentiation.

I suggest you to re-read your book.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 16:23

Originally posted by Maju

[QUOTE=Aryan Khadem]


I think you are confusing IEs with their offsprings. It is very likely, and I agree with it, that European IEs came from Central Asia but at that time we can't speak of Saxons, Celts, Greeks or Romans: all we can talk of is Indo-Europeans and sometimes with not little doubts. 

In any case, while you can say perfectly that IEs were original from Central Asia, you can't say that those specific IE nations were alien to Europe: that's a clearly erroneous understanding of the process of IE expansion and diferentiation.

Maju is wright. IE came to eastern Europa in the 6th century with other nomadic people such as Avars. Avars decided (after the unsuccefull seige of Solun) to go to the West, and Slavic people staied in the region of Central Balkan. Nowdays, we call them Croats, or Serbs, but they are the same people, in genetic and in the all other ways, just of the different religion (Serbs are Ortodox, Croats are of the Catholic faith, and in the Bosnia there are muslims-converted Slavs).

There is no need to go all the way to a bronze age. Originally, in the Central Balkans lived people before Romans and Slavs, and  they were called "the Vlahs"(Wallachs). Today, their offsprings lives mostly in Romania.

I think that the answer is: todays Serbs, Croats are the mixture of Slavs (IE group of people), and Turks who were ruling in this part of Europ for five centuries. Only religions are different. Any other opinion is coming from the scientists affected by the last civil war (1991-1995) from all three sides: Serb, Croatan and Bosnian. Come on...the same questions were been asked just before the WW2 about Jews, Gypsies, and Slavs. I even once read (article in some croatian newspapers in 1993) that the Serbs have smaller heads, and therefore brains!!! And that stupidity wrote professor who teaches History of the Early Middle Age at the Universety in Zagreb. So... it's a direct political manipulation.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 16:47
I am locking this topic also, if anyone has a good reason why it should remain open, please pm me.
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