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OSMANLI
Colonel
Joined: 24-Nov-2004
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Topic: Ottoman Turkish vs Modern Turkish Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 16:09 |
Yeah. thats to say diffrent from modern anatolian.
One thing i dont understand is that how come when Ataturk was doing the language reforms, to make it more 'Turkish' he took out much of the foreign Muslim words (Arabic and Persion). However many european words were getting introduced. Mainly French. Even to this day this is happning, only diffrence being that instead of french many english words are being introduced.
Quite odd
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Bakma
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Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 07:44 |
for example the word "okul" is french ekol.
the uzbeks say MAHTAB to school we could say mehteb but there are not many turks who say mehteb.
masa, tranvay, pantalon is all spanish.
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Inson borki insonlarning naqshidir, inson borki hayvon undan yaxshidir
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Yiannis
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Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 08:32 |
Originally posted by Bakma
for example the word "okul" is french ekol.
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Actualy it's "ecole" in French, deriving from Greek "Skhole"
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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kotumeyil
Chieftain
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Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 09:05 |
"Okul" comes from "oku = to read"
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[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">
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DayI
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Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 09:48 |
en franais c'est: l' cole
Edited by DayI
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Guests
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Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 17:24 |
Western Turkish dialect isnt the same thing with Ottoman Turkish. I have written about it in another topic so you can go and check the info there (Persian words in Turkish).
Ottoman language was the administrative language of the Ottoman palace. It was based on Turkish grammer and lots of loan words, almost near the number of Turkish words, but in modified versions. It isnt the same with Western Turkish- Oguz dialect.
Oguz dialect is the original western Turkish. Istanbul dialect is part of it that have been used by the regular Turks during the Ottoman reign and that's still beng used by most Turks, %90 the same. The so called administrative language of the Ottoman Empire isnt the same with it.
So Ataturk didnt create a new Turkish for us. He just destroyed the administrative language of the elites, and placed the regular language of the Anatolian and Istanbulite Turks instead of the administrative Ottoman Turkish. About the French words, they were already being used by Turks during the Ottoman reign. Persians, Armenians, Greeks also have ots of French words loaned mostly in 19th century. Otobus for example, common in Persian and Turkish.
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Janissary
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Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 21:40 |
Yeah, and in fact the places like Iqdir, Kars, Erzurum-And western Azerbaijan is more clotyher to Ottoman turkish
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arfunda
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Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 05:03 |
Ouzolu is right. I want to add a few things to him:
I prefer to use two terms:
- Ottoman language
- Turkish spoken during Ottoman period
Why are they different?
- As I mentiioned before in this topic, Ottoman language was a synthetic language spoken by elits, administrators, poets etc. The language used Turkish, Persian and Arabic words; but the gramer was not the pure grammer of Turkish. Persian and Arabic gramers also were mixed, this gramatical mixture made the language ununderstandable by public speaking Turkish.
- Turkish spoken during Ottoman period had of course many words from Persian (because of historical common cultures) and from Arabish (because of religion), but these words had not been taken suddenly and synheticcally. Turks had taken these words in centuries and in a narural relation and had Turkishized them (made the pronouncations suitable to Turkish grammer). And the grammer was turkish. This Turkish was western dialect (Oghuz Turkish) of Turkish languages. You know that term "dialect" is used to describe deep differences in a language. E.g. Uzbek, Kazak, Oghuz, Kipchak Turkish are different dialects. There is also another term "az" (=mouth, means regional accent) to describe the little differences in a dialect. E.g. Azeri Turkish and Anotolian turkish are both in Oghuz dialect but they have different pronouncations, they use different regional accents. Even in Anatolia there are many regional accents (mouths). E.g. Turkish of eastern and southestern Anatolia was similar to Azeri accent during Ottoman period (You can read Ziya Gkalp's book in which Kurds and Turks are told) Western Anatolia uses different accent, and Thrace uses another accent. The Turkish language spoken in Bartin is a synthesis of both Kipchak and Oghuz dialects (A linguistics searher has studied on it and he has observed the registers of title deeds.) because Kpckaks habe been living in Bartn with Oghuz Turks (You can look at the topic Cumans: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?)
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arfunda
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Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 05:11 |
So tthe accent of Bartn is different.http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TI D=5164&TPN=2
What about Turkish of Turkish Rebublic? It is just the Turkish of Anatolians during Ottoman Empire. Language Revolution changed the alphebet and didn't want to use a synthetic language. The researchers of the revoluton studied for moths and collected all the turkish words and useges of Turkish from all regions of Turkey and prepared a Turkish language. And revolution taak the Istanbul accent as areferrance in written language in order to obtain a uniqness in written accent. The grammers of these accents aren't different, and they are still used in all regions and cities in spoken language.
(By the way I am a member of Turkish Lanfuage Society)
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arfunda
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Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 05:26 |
I want to correct my sentence: The researchers of the revoluton studied for months and collected all the Turkish words and useges of Turkish from all regions of Turkey and prepared a Turkish language dictionary. (dictionary was forgetten above).
What else did the language reform do? It showed that Turkish, like any language, may get rich by means of its own grammer (sffixws etc) because the 20th century brought many scientific and tecnological inventions. Many sciece brances were born. So all languages needed new scientific (medical, biogicaletc) and tecnical terms. So the language researchers from many different dissiplines in Turkey came together to use terms in Turkish (all the linguistics accept the relation between thinking/entellect and language and for someone the most effective way of learning is to use own language). Now all the terms of phylosophy, science, technology have Turkish words.
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Bakma
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Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 15:39 |
the iranians also say merci
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Inson borki insonlarning naqshidir, inson borki hayvon undan yaxshidir
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