Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

turks and etruscans are TROAN?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 12>
Author
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1199
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: turks and etruscans are TROAN?
    Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 06:58

It is not inconceivable that peoples of the Levant could colonize the western Mediterranean.  The Phoenicians and the Greeks are the most verified case and point.  If there was a kernel of truth to Lydians colonizing Etruria it may be probably more truthful to simply say that the Lydian element was assimilated by the Etruscans whose culture was native.  Not only was Lemnian related to Etruscan but perhaps also Rhaetian.  There may have been, instead a substratum of pre-IE languages of which those three languages were the remnants.  Herodotus speaks of Lemnians as Pelasgians and their language related to other peoples further north in the Balkans (Book 1.57) calling them "neighbors to the Tyrrhenians".  It is curious that these particular Balkan Pelasgians were called "of Tyrrhenian race" (Thucydides 4.109).  Therefore instead of looking for an "Etruscan" migration perhaps it is much better to think of natives of Italy a remnant of a much larger group of linguistically related peoples of southern Europe which gained an Anatolian element. 

The problem with the Aeneas story of having sailed to Italy is that the earliest attestations (In Homer and Hesiod) mention no such tradition.  Instead, the Homeric tradition makes Aeneas the new king of the Trojans as well as his descendants after the Sack of Troy (Illiad 20.307) (Homeric Hymns - To Aphrodite 191-198).  Later, according to the Little Illiad, Aeneas was taken as a prize by Neoptolemus to Pharsalia (frag. 14).  In The Sack of Troy, Aeneas simply withdraws from Troy to Mt. Ida before the Greeks took the city.  Thus it is several hundred years before there is a tie-in with Romans.  The Greeks know of a much older tradition independent of the "Aeneas tradition" regarding the Romans.  Accordingly, the earliest tradition as known by Stesichorus (c. 600 BC) makes the founder the Rome itself a female named "Roma" who fled from Troy.  Since Stesichorus was contemporary with the later Homeric tradition, the tie-in of Aeneas with Rome was of much later date, but the Trojan connection itself is quite early.

Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 08:37
I'm personally inclined to believe that colonizers are more likely to assimilate colonized ones than vice versa and I tend to think that the Aegean->Italy migration did happen at some time probably in the turbulent period that comprises the Sea Peoples' campaigns and the destruction of Troy at the end of the 2nd milennium BCE.

Yet your mentions of a Balcanic connection made me recall something that was posted some time ago in a now locked post by suspended member Albanian Trilogy (copy-and-paste, copy-and-paste ). He posted some curious transcriptions of Etruscan terms and surprising coincidences in Albanian (see http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4769& ;PN=3 and scroll down till you find some pics or scanned material on that). This has been the only locked topic I have protested about because while AT was an autist I did want to discuss more on some of the Albanian origins theories and particularly in the possible Etrsuco-Albano-Pelasgian connection.

Maybe this is the occasion to rescue those curious almost literal Etrusco-Albanian translations and ask Vulkan (I think he's the only Albanian member) if the translation is valid or is a far-fetched speculation.

The material is the following:









Any ideas?

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Phallanx View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283
  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 09:25
Yeah I remember that one 

I just loved reading how in the next word  table 'he' tried to connect 'Thetis' to 'Thalassa' without knowing the basics.
LINK

Had the author of this article/table ever read the Oxyrhynchus papyrus he would know what the name is all about. Alkman tells us that :

""For when matter began to be established, a certain passage (poros), like a beginning (arche), was created. Alkman says that the material of everything was confused and not made.
Then, he says, there came into being he (or that, masculine) who arranged everything; then a passage came into being, and when the passage had gone past, a sign (tekmor) followed. And the passage is like an origin, and the sign is like an end.
When Thetis came into being, these became the beginning and end of everything, and all things have a similar nature to that of bronze, and Thetis to that of the craftsman, and the way and the sign to the beginning and the end... on account of sun and moon not yet having come into being but matter (hyle) still being without distinction. There came about therefore ... passage and sign and darkness. Day and moon and thirdly darkness; the flashings; not merely day but with sun; first there was only darkness, after this when it was separated "

So we find that
1) At the beginning matter was confused, there neither a Sun nor a Moon. So the Sidereal Cosmos as we know it was literally undeveloped.
2)Untill someone was born (Thetis) that put everything in place like a craftsman would.

Thetis = from tithemi (e=hetta) which means "to set, put, place" = thetis = 'he one who places'
---

I could continue with words like 'elkw', 'thera' (with an hetta), 'krounos', ....etc still in use today or others that are obviously of ancient origin....

The way I see it, it's just another propaganda attempt to introduce a noble historic background... similar to some other self proclaimed scholars that have presented a Batic origin for Homer's Troy, despite the finds that undoubtably point to the exact location...

This, as a number of other attempts, be it that of Polat Kaya insisting on a Turkish origin, Georgiev and his theory , Mellart proposing an Anatolian origin, Z, Mayani (an Albanian Jew in origin citizen of France) presenting the Albanian connection (these might very well be, his tables), Gordeziani (a Georgian ) presenting an origin from Kolchis.....etc are by no means acceptable theories, which is obviously the reason that they are not accepted by the international oranizations...

I guess we'll just have to wait and see...
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 11:19
Nah, man! I didn't understand a word of your explanation actually but, if we're going to speculate on thalassos, I'd say it's a clear Basque word (itsaso), a word that is also origin for English sea. You know that English like to shorten words.

But, seriously, I'd like to find out more on the Albanian connection. Much of what Albanian Trilogy posted was pretty awful but this one got me curious to find out more. The origin of Albanians themselves is misterious enough to intrigue me.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1199
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 11:19

I'm personally inclined to believe that colonizers are more likely to assimilate colonized ones than vice versa and I tend to think that the Aegean->Italy migration did happen at some time probably in the turbulent period that comprises the Sea Peoples' campaigns and the destruction of Troy at the end of the 2nd milennium BCE.

Like I said, colonization from the Levant to the western Mediterranean was something that is verfiable.  As for colonizers vs. natives, it really depends.  The Hyksos colonized Egypt, yet they did not "Hyksosized" the Egyptians.   Indo-Aryan groups became rulers of the Hurrians, yet they did not Aryanize the Hurrians.  The Turkic Bulgars ruled the Thracian Slavs but they were Slavicised. 

Back to Top
Perseas View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 14-Jan-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781
  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 12:50
Originally posted by Sharrukin

The problem with the Aeneas story of having sailed to Italy is that the earliest attestations (In Homer and Hesiod) mention no such tradition.  Instead, the Homeric tradition makes Aeneas the new king of the Trojans as well as his descendants after the Sack of Troy (Illiad 20.307) (Homeric Hymns - To Aphrodite 191-198).  Later, according to the Little Illiad, Aeneas was taken as a prize by Neoptolemus to Pharsalia (frag. 14).  In The Sack of Troy, Aeneas simply withdraws from Troy to Mt. Ida before the Greeks took the city.  Thus it is several hundred years before there is a tie-in with Romans.  The Greeks know of a much older tradition independent of the "Aeneas tradition" regarding the Romans.  Accordingly, the earliest tradition as known by Stesichorus (c. 600 BC) makes the founder the Rome itself a female named "Roma" who fled from Troy.  Since Stesichorus was contemporary with the later Homeric tradition, the tie-in of Aeneas with Rome was of much later date, but the Trojan connection itself is quite early.

To add some infos, according to Little Iliad, Aeneas was taken as plunder together with Andromache from Neoptolemus at the return from Troy. Later he was released after the death of Neoptolemus but according to other interpretation Aeneas was released during the time of Troy's looting. According to a surmise of Hellanikos, Aeneas got away from Troy and he came by sea to Pallini of Halkidiki and then, through the country of Molossians he went to Italy where he built Rome. As a matter of fact, it was found in Halkidiki an ancient coin of 6th Century BC, portraying Aeneas.

A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
Back to Top
Phallanx View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283
  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 12:55
Well it's not actually so much my explanation but what Alkman a pre-Socratic poet (6th cent BC) has written.
An Oxyrhynchus papyrus (number 2390) contains a quotation that mentions the above text. He stated that Thetis (she/he who sets/puts in place), was the one that put matter in order so the world was able to develop.

This is totally unrelated to 'Thalassa' which derives from 'thalw' = to abound and 'alas' = salt.

Herodotus speaks of Lemnians as Pelasgians and their language related to other peoples further north in the Balkans (Book 1.57) calling them "neighbors to the Tyrrhenians".

Well yes but he also mentions in the exact same text, that the Peasgians were originally neighbors of those now called Dorians and settled in Thessaly. Which rather points to an 'out of Hellas' migration that to that of 'out of the Levant'..
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 14:51
Originally posted by Sharrukin

I'm personally inclined to believe that colonizers are more likely to assimilate colonized ones than vice versa and I tend to think that the Aegean->Italy migration did happen at some time probably in the turbulent period that comprises the Sea Peoples' campaigns and the destruction of Troy at the end of the 2nd milennium BCE.

Like I said, colonization from the Levant to the western Mediterranean was something that is verfiable.  As for colonizers vs. natives, it really depends.  The Hyksos colonized Egypt, yet they did not "Hyksosized" the Egyptians.   Indo-Aryan groups became rulers of the Hurrians, yet they did not Aryanize the Hurrians.  The Turkic Bulgars ruled the Thracian Slavs but they were Slavicised. 



I wouldn't say that Hiksos colonized Egypt, they rather conquered it. It's not the colonizing case of more advanced peoples on less advanced ones but rather the opposite case of less developed tribes invading a more advanced one, something that not always ends with the cultural assimilation of the invaded (examples: steppary invaders of China, Germanic invaders of Rome).

But anyhow, you're right that it can be the other way... can't decide. You see: if Etruscans were native of Italy as to share with Iberians and Ligurians the Cardium Pottery Mediterranean Neolithic background, their language should be expected to be similar. Yet they don't sound the same at all (phonetically Iberian is close to Basque, sounds simmilar and uses the same type of consonants - Etruscan does not: you won't find Ps and Fs in Iberian, but you find Bs and Gs, which Etruscan doesn't have).

Yet, it's known that during the Chalcolithic (pan-European chronology), Aegean/Balcanic influence does show a clear mark in southern and central Italy (Tuscany included). This could have been such an early colonization as to be considered "native" for the times we are considering. But still would imply a connection with either the Aegean or the Balcans (Rakhmani-Bubanji-Hum complex specially).


NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 14:55
Originally posted by Phallanx



Herodotus speaks of Lemnians as Pelasgians and their language related to other peoples further north in the Balkans (Book 1.57) calling them "neighbors to the Tyrrhenians".

Well yes but he also mentions in the exact same text, that the Peasgians were originally neighbors of those now called Dorians and settled in Thessaly. Which rather points to an 'out of Hellas' migration that to that of 'out of the Levant'..


Could this mean that at some time Hellas was pluriethnic and ot just Greek?

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1199
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 02:00

Well yes but he also mentions in the exact same text, that the Peasgians were originally neighbors of those now called Dorians and settled in Thessaly. Which rather points to an 'out of Hellas' migration that to that of 'out of the Levant'..

The point is that regardless of where the Pelasgians originated, Greece as part of the Levant, was still in the Levant.  Besides, Homer mentions Pelasgians as inhabitants of Greece (Book 2.680) as well as inhabitants of western Anatolia (Book 2.840-844) these last being Trojan allies. 

I wouldn't say that Hiksos colonized Egypt, they rather conquered it. It's not the colonizing case of more advanced peoples on less advanced ones but rather the opposite case of less developed tribes invading a more advanced one, something that not always ends with the cultural assimilation of the invaded (examples: steppary invaders of China, Germanic invaders of Rome).

The Hyksos were colonizing the Egyptian Delta for at least a century or two before the actual "conquest". 

But anyhow, you're right that it can be the other way... can't decide. You see: if Etruscans were native of Italy as to share with Iberians and Ligurians the Cardium Pottery Mediterranean Neolithic background, their language should be expected to be similar. Yet they don't sound the same at all (phonetically Iberian is close to Basque, sounds simmilar and uses the same type of consonants - Etruscan does not: you won't find Ps and Fs in Iberian, but you find Bs and Gs, which Etruscan doesn't have).

You are assuming that cultural uniformity means linguistic uniformity as well.  This may be more true for an intrusive IE cultural complex, but not necessarily so for native cultures.  If we were to postulate an average original linguistic region in square miles (or square kms) we can fit from 20 to 40 different languages including PIE into the area of Europe given that studies have yielded a range of any given historical language as between 25,000 to 1 million square miles.  Now, assuming that, like PIE, linguistic differentiation occurred with the other languages, we can assume many language families within Europe including Iberian, Tartessian, Euskarian, and Etruscan as among the better known historically attested non-IE languages.  Even today, the only other non-IE language family which survives in Europe, Finno-Ugrian may be brought into this picture.  The point is that regardless if whether Etruscans share cultural traits with the Ligurians and Iberians at such a remote period, this still does not assume that they were related linguistically.  Statistically, each may represent a different non-IE language family altogether.

Now, regarding the Etruscans, they can be discernable by about 900 BC with emergence of the Villanova Culture (c. 900-700 BC).  The problem is that even before that, the Proto-Villanova Culture (c. 1100-900 BC) which is characterized by a uniformity of culture covering almost the entire extent of continental Italy, was in areas where known IE languages were spoken.  In terms of culture therefore, either the Etruscans owned the whole length of Italy, or they adopted IE culture.  The Proto-Villanova Culture is supposedly derived from the central European urnfield tradition, which is identified with IE culture.  It thus becomes quite certain that the native Etruscans adopted an Italian version of IE culture.  Since there is no evidence at this period of "oriental" elements entering Italy, assimilation of "Lydians" is the simplest theory to consider.  In fact, when we first discern "oriental" styles in Etruscan artefacts (indeed, also in the rest of Italy) they occured only by about 750 BC.

Could this mean that at some time Hellas was pluriethnic and ot just Greek?

The linguistic evidence points to more than one ethno-linguistic entity in Greece.  Studies of the Greek language itself have shown that there is a substratum of words without Greek etymology.  The interesting thing about this is that these non-Greek words fall into discernable categories.   Greek words for Mediterranean plants such as the fig, olive, hyacinth, cypress, laurel, marjoram, chickpea, chestnut, cherry and parsnip were not originally Greek.  The names of animals such as ass, the wild ox and the beetle are likewise originally non-Greek.  Other words included such for metal, tin, bronze, lead, jar, pail, oil flask, sword, javelin, cornice, coping, chamber, bath tub and brick.  Words for social/political concepts including basileos "king", doulos "slave", and "concubine" weren't originally Greek.  Now add to this, the names of heros and divinities such as Achilles, Theseus, Athene, Aphrodite, and Hermes.  We can even add to this list place-names such as Corinth, Knossos, Salamis, Larisa, Samos, and even Olympus and Mycenae.  In the final analysis, the "vocabulary suggests that these borrowings were not wholly random, but rather tend to focus on words that a population intrusive into a new land might be expected to adopt from the previous inhabitants." (In Search of the Indo-Europeans, by J.P. Mallory, page 68).

Back to Top
Phallanx View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283
  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 05:52
The linguistic evidence points to more than one ethno-linguistic entity in Greece.  Studies of the Greek language itself have shown that there is a substratum of words without Greek etymology.  The interesting thing about this is that these non-Greek words fall into discernable categories.   Greek words for Mediterranean plants such as the fig, olive, hyacinth, cypress, laurel, marjoram, chickpea, chestnut, cherry and parsnip were not originally Greek.  The names of animals such as ass, the wild ox and the beetle are likewise originally non-Greek.  Other words included such for metal, tin, bronze, lead, jar, pail, oil flask, sword, javelin, cornice, coping, chamber, bath tub and brick.  Words for social/political concepts including basileos "king", doulos "slave", and "concubine" weren't originally Greek.  Now add to this, the names of heros and divinities such as Achilles, Theseus, Athene, Aphrodite, and Hermes.  We can even add to this list place-names such as Corinth, Knossos, Salamis, Larisa, Samos, and even Olympus and Mycenae.  In the final analysis, the "vocabulary suggests that these borrowings were not wholly random, but rather tend to focus on words that a population intrusive into a new land might be expected to adopt from the previous inhabitants." (In Search of the Indo-Europeans, by J.P. Mallory, page 68).


I for one would like to see how exactly can some foreign loan words constitute proof, enough proof to consider anthropologic research as false (presented before see Angel). Since when is 'bous' = ox non Hellinic and what does Mallory present?
Is it the rediculous origin from the Sanskrit 'ganh' that is explained by insisting on a single unknown original word of many convenient forms that gave us all the later...???

What is exactly the origin of 'plinthos'= brick  if not Hellinic and exactly what does it tell us about the words that form it, 'plassw'+ 'lithos' ?
Would this mean the Hellinic language not only adopted the word but also the words that form it ???

How does this theory propose to convince us that not only did they adopt a foreign word/ name (Aphrodite) that has a clear connection to the myth of emerging from the sea, but even managed to break it down into 'aphro' and 'duth' and use those two words individually as also seen above?

Of course the lands of Hellas weren't only inhabbited by Hellines and of course the Hellinic language has it's share of loans, ancient texts do tell us this quite clearly..
But it is more than obvious that in their delirium of trying to make finds of doubtable historic accuracy, these 'scholars' jump to many conclussions that aren't based on serious research..
Which in this case is presenting every non-IE word as a pre-IE adoption and thus rejecting the very existance of a language before the invisible IE invasions, which is literally unacceptale and unprovable..

To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 06:52
I will follow with outmost interest this linguistic discussion. But in any case, IEs should have come from outside (or be original to Greece, what is extremely unlikely), wether or not there are conclussive proofs of that invasion/migration. 

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Alkiviades View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 01-Sep-2005
Location: Antarctica
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 469
  Quote Alkiviades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 07:06

Take whatever Mallory says with a pint of salt. I've never read anything more partial than his "in search for the IE" in the field of classical linguistics. Phallanx has pointed out only a very small number of striking inconcistencies with his writings. To write them all down, you'd need to present here 3/4 of the book (quite a task, even if there was no copyright issue at hand as well)

If Mallory sums up the whole IE construct, then this construct even linguistically (since ethnologically its already dead meat, so to say) is shaky... very shaky.

The more I am reading, the more I dismiss the whole IE construct, both linguistically and ethnologically... and I really need an alternative. This IE hypothesis has proven time after time after time that it holds no water at all, the holes are not just visible, but it's consisted solely by holes with nothing to hold them together.

Back to Top
Phallanx View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283
  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 07:20
I'm not trying to turn this into another IE discussion, since my thesis has been noted many times before and I don't see it getting anywhere worth wild (meaning us agreeing on something) since it never has before.
I'm just stating that in their attempt to construct a past that suits them, (be it for propaganda reasons or other) many so called 'scholars' are jumping to unprovable conclussions..

To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Back to Top
sedamoun View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 18-Oct-2005
Location: Sweden
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 480
  Quote sedamoun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 07:37

Hello,

I read an article about the origins of the etruscan kings of Rome and their genetic similarities with (some) people from Anatolia, but i'm curious of something Caliph wrote:  "... you realize that modern Italians are not Turk (just about 10%) but actually Basque".

I do not think the Italians are the Basque's decendants but that they share the common genetics (along with the French, the Iberians...). If you have an article that proves me wrong, I would love to read it.

I Found an interesting article on www.raceandhistory.com about the basques and their east-african origins.

 http://www.raceandhistory.com/worldhotspots/basque.htm

Back to Top
vulkan02 View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Termythinator

Joined: 27-Apr-2005
Location: U$A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1835
  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 10:52
Maju I got your private messenger and of course Ill be glad to give my opinion on it. A lot of the Albanian words posted in the comparison table are indeed very close to the etruscan ones and of course they have the specified meaning in Albanian. There's many scholars in Albania who have found artifacts that link ancient Illyrian-Pelasgian language (currently constitutes 30-40% of Albanian) to Etruscan language. Many of the Greek members here will jump and negate this right away but I don't see why it couldn't be possible for Illyrians and Etruscans to have similarities in their languages just like they had many similarities with the Thracians and Dacians. Geographically they were close too so it makes sense that there is some type of connection between the 2.
 I don't have the time to translate the whole scripture now... if someone could I would be glad and later try to write its meaning in Albanian .
Some of the Greek gods also are suggested to mean something in Albanian.
Kronos - Kron - Burim (source of all Gods??)
Zeus - Zot (God )
Aphrodite - Afer dita (afer - near   dita-light)
Athena - E thena( The spoken word.... speech)
Demeter(mother earth goddess) - Da mater(the mother)


I haven't really looked up all the Gods and their meaning in Albanian but it could have been a possibility that their names were adopted or introduced during the Dorian invasion.




Edited by vulkan02
The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
Back to Top
Phallanx View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283
  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 11:19
Honestly vulcan, how would you expect me to sit around and read this stuff without jumping ???


While I do believe you have the best of intentions, the problem is that your sources are totally bias.

Not only do we read claims of a 'relation' to Pelasgians and Etruscans, but now we top it off by claims on Gods that is supported by some rediculous manipulation of linguistics...

ZEUS
To understand where the name derives we must look into the very myth and connect him to his father and mother. So we have:

In the myth of Cronos eating his children. We have the symbolization of time ("Hronos" in Hellinic) eating his "children", days, months and years, without the earth ("Gaia") and the sky ("Ouranos") noticing it.
Probably having to do with the (false?) anticipated time linearity in our 3d-dimensional timespace. Or, if this is too much, it could have to do with the eradication of the memories of the early Hellinic civilization (dates back to 38,000 B.C.) after the glaciers melted at about 9,500 b.C. and the Aegan Sea flooded.
Zeus (from the verb "Zeugnyo"=create a link), comes as a link between the past and the known to us ancient Hellinic civilization putting a link between time and between people, under the same historical memories na the same "religion".

ATHENA:
Whoever knows the myth surrounding her, (which the author of this article obviously has no knowledge of) knows that she was born from the head of Zeus.Depending on the version of the myth, we find that she was raised by men either Triton, Pallas or Alalcomeneussince since her mother had been swallowed by Zeus.

So Athena, A-Thena when broken down gives us:
the privative 'a' and
thena = from thenion (written with hetta and omega) meaning milk.

So her name actually means without mothers milk, either in an active or in passive sense not giving suck, or unsuckled, in her charter as the virgin goddess, or as springing from the head of Zeus.

Aphrodite
Again the same problem as above appears. They allegedly  adopt a Gods name, construct a myth and conveniently the name has it's own meaning directly connected to the myth..

The same source also argues that :

Thetis, the goddess of waters and seas, would seem to be but Albanian "Det" which means "sea."

"Ulysses," either in its Latin or Hellinic form "Odysseus," means "traveler" in Albanian, from the word "udhe," meaning "route" and "travel"

Sorry bout the laughing but I just can't help myself...

Thetis explained above, and
ODYSSEUS
From the verb Odyssao/Odyssomai = to be wroth against, hate. from the root od- also seen in the Latin Odium= hatred. refering to the hatred of the Gods that made him wander. It's simple once you understand that Odysseus wasn't reknowned for his journey but for the suffering the Gods put upon him...



To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 11:39
I asked Vulkan to come and take a look at the Etruscan-Albanian transcriptions because I was truly curious about them being done correctly or just being a nonsense. Nobody else in tis forum could confirm if that was ok or not.

That doesn't mean that the alleged Albanian origins of Greek gods is necesarily correct or just a happy elaboration of someone with nothing better to do.

But if the Albano-Etruscan connection is confirmed, that would mean two things:
  1. Relevant to Etruscan origins: that there is a Balcano-Etruscan connection.
  2. Relevant to Albanian origins: that they have been dwelling in the area for very long (something, I must confess, I always suspected).
It means that we have Etruscan related peoples in several areas of Italy, in Lemnos and in the Balcans. We also have those gold tablets in Etruscan found recently in Thracian context.

How do we join the dots? Anyone...

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Phallanx View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283
  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 12:06
Well I understood why you asked for his assistance.

Anyway, there are a couple of problems, for example, there are many significant Etruscan words that don't exist in Albanian, for example..

Brother is similar to the IE 'phrater'...etc and is seen as "frater", "fratrom", "fratros" while the Albanian word is "velle"

breast is seen as "mam" and "mammar" in contrast to the Albanian " gji, sisë, zemer, ndjenja

father
is seen as "patre", "patrebum" and "tette"
in contrast to the Albanian baba, ate

son
seen as filos, filus, filvus in contrast to the Albanian bir and diale

daughter
seen as file in contrast to the Albanian bije , vadje

our
seen as "nos" in contrast to the Albanian jone , ine

And the list continues,,,,,,
There might be some similarities I might have missed, but this by no means proves a direct connection it could be due to a number of reasons..
I don't believe that a language like Albanian, being recorded in writting for the first time in the 15th cent. is a good basis to come to such conclusions, especially since we know of other language influence upon it, from Romanian to Turkish and Arab.
So these similarities may mean absolutely nothing at all, but then again...


To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 13:41
Hmmm... did you notice that all those Etruscan words you mention are almost identical to their Latin counterparts? We need a serious linguist that knows Albanian and Latin and, of course, something of Etruscan.

One thing is quite clear: Etruscan is not Latin and these are two very diferent cultures, despite their intense neighborhood.

...

My own comments would be that:
  • baba is obviously a Turk loan, while tette and ate are similar enough.
  • a B->F (or F->B) transformation (Etruscan doesn't have B nor G) could connect bir and bija to filos and file, specially if the R also becomes L.
But I can't solve the puzzle on my limited knowledge of both tongues.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.204 seconds.