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turks and etruscans are TROAN?

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  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: turks and etruscans are TROAN?
    Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 20:04
Originally posted by drgonzaga

Ah but symbols do persist! Both the crescent and the star on the Turkish flag are old Byzantine imperial symbols and have nothing to do with Islam per se. The old 13th century bezants often bore the crescent and star as symbols of the "empire" and the city, and just as the Arabs essentially adapted both the architechture and urban market organization of the Eastern Empire (Al-Kaiseriya or al-qasr--Alczar--Caesar's place or the fortified suq) so too the the Ottomans viewed themselves as legitimate successors to the imperial ideal. People forget that the House of Osman consolidated its military organization not in Anatolia but in the Balkans subsequent to the Mongol incursions of the 13th century. Accordingly, some assign the crescent of Byzantium back to the 4th century BC; however, "flags" as such are a much later idea as a successor to the earlier standards and other clan symbols. Nevertheless, by the 7th century AD, the crescent moon was the common symbol Eastern Rome. Even the old Byzantine conception of Constantinople as The City survived and that is exactly what the Turkic Istanbul actually means. And yes, Tyranos is correct when he speaks of the intent by Mehmet II over the title of Caesar as well as the ethos of Rome. In fact, if you follow his military campaigns subsequent to the 1453 capture of Constantinople, he moved to reconstitute the old empire first in the Balkans (with the final destruction of Serb power), then to the Morea (the old Byzantine entrepot on the Black Sea) and finally the consolidation of control in Anatolia proper to the Euphrates, in effect restoring the old political extent of Constantinople in the 8th century. He achieved this not by relying on the old Turkic leadership but through the integration of varied ethnic groups into his own personal military, the Janissaries--which like his father served as a bulwark against the Turkic leadership and their group interests. Thus, it should be no coincidence that just as Mehmet II deployed the title of Caesar in the West, to the East he asserted the claim to the Caliphate. We are speaking of a masterful politician quite alert to the power of symbols.
 
Actually we had a discussion about that issue(a year ago i think...) Cresent and star. Some forummers said its Byzantic, some said it camed from Mesopotamia, some said it used by Gokturks.....
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 20:57
Erkut noted:
"Actually we had a discussion about that issue( a year ago i think...) Crescent and star. Some forummers said its Byzantic, some said it came from Mesopotamia, some said it [was] used by Gokturks....."
 
At least you did not make reference to the crescent in heraldry, where there it stands for the second son! Now as for the Gktrks,let us leave them aside more or less until identified by the more permanent names of Bulgars [that should raise some hackles] and Khazars. As with the later Turks they too were fascinated by the New Rome and its imperial symbols. In terms of religious symbolism, crescents and stars are ancient in context and the horned moon as well as the star are everywhere [Isis, Astarte, Artemis, Ishtar, Lakshmi etc.]; however, in terms of political symbols, the story is otherwise. Need I mention the Virgin Mary as Our Lady of Guadalupe with her starry mantle as she stands astride the crescent moon?
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 21:13
Cresent and a star are pretty much natural phenomenons. it could verry well be that the use of these symbols originated from multiple places
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 00:44
Sorry drgonzaga but the "Crescent" was used by Turks way before the Ottomans dating back to pre-Islamic eras where it had religous connatitions to do with Tengrism.
 
The crescent has also been used in other cultures.
 
The Turks popularised the crescent moon, they used it on their "tughs" flags and imagery, it was used in the West aswell but this is just a coincedence, it was also used in different continants, its natural that the moon and stars be used.


Edited by Bulldog - 07-Dec-2007 at 00:46
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 14:21
You are moving away from the 15th century setting, Bulldog, so as to speculate on clans and cultures while ignoring the political, which is the subject under discussion. I will not go into your attempt to thrust what is an essentially contemporary movement, Tengrism, into the hoary past of antiquity. Give the West its New Age kooks and permit the Tatars and Kazhaks their New Shamans, after all Russians have their Neo-Pagans.
 
The Ottomans were not the first Turks to assert a claim to rule in terms of the political symbols of their predecessor since the Seljuks did much the same when they formulated the Sultanate of Rm. The crescent as a symbol of Islam has nothing to do with religious symbolism and instead is a statement of a claim to imperial rule and is directly associated with the House of Osman, which subsequently imposed it as the Ottomans moved outward from Anatolia. The earliest known Turkic standards have no crescent. Perhaps you should take a look at this site so as to grasp the essence of continuity within change:
 
 
Yes, it is speaking of Romania, nevertheless, it is a most interesting site, properly referenced and useful for a lot of good lists and images.
 
"In this period flags in the modern sense were just beginning to come into use; and there were 14th century banners that would have evolved into a proper flag for Romania, given the chance. We find a field with a Cross, like many Crusader banners and flags, with the addition of curious devices, which look like images and mirror-images of something between the letter B, the letter E, and broken links of a chain. These are sometimes said to have already been used by Constantine I and have been variously interpreted. One possibility is that they are stylized forms of Crescent Moons, originally symbolic of the divine patroness of Byzantium, the goddess Artemis. The stylized forms have been inherited in the arms of Serbia, and crescents are used as a Serb national symbol, seen at left -- something that has probably become a sign of terror to non-Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo. If it was the Crescent that was originally used in Constantinople, this may have been directly inherited by Turkey. A Crescent is now commonly taken as symbolic of Islm, but this may not antedate the Turkish flag. The star on the Turkish flag is sometimes said to be Romanian also, symbolizing the Virgin Mary, but it does not occur on the earliest Turkish flags. However, Whitney Smith [Flags Through the Ages and Across the World, McGraw-Hill, 1975] shows a flag identified only as "medieval Russian" that shows a cross with four crescents and four stars also (p. 174). The crescents are oriented differently, but this design seems too elaborate not to have Roman antecedents. The double headed Eagle is also a Romanian device, said to have been introduced by Michael VIII Palaeologus, with the two heads looking towards the Anatolian and European halves of the Empire, as the Emperor did from Constantinople. Or, Donald M. Nicol [Byzantium and Venice, a Study in Diplomatic and Cultural Relations, Cambridge University Press, 1999, p. 249] says, it was adopted by Andronicus II to symbolize the division of authority with his grandson, Andronicus III -- though it far outlasted that particular division. Eagles were used by many to imply Roman antecedents, but the double headed eagle was adopted in particular by the Holy Roman Empire, by Imperial Russia, and by the Serbs. It also occurred on the flag used by George Castriota, or Skanderbeg, when he drove the Turks out of Albania, between 1443 and 1463. Thus, when Albania became independent from Turkey, Skanderbeg's flag was revived."
 
Chock full of references, this little Internet domain, even brings in the White Turks and Trebizond! Of particular interest to this thread is this highly astute observation:
 
"In historical perspective, however, it is not clear to what extent the ancient peoples even still existed by the time of the Turkish arrival. Greek assimilation, i.e. Hellenization, of Anatolian peoples had been progressing steadily for centuries, and Turkish settlement in comparison doesn't necessarily look all that different. Given the religious cause that they thought they were vindicating (for which Islm usually seems more excused than Christianity), the Fall of Constantinople, far from sad, was one of the supreme moments of achievement in the history of Islm. A Western, or a modern liberal, evaluation will not give that much weight, but it is not hard to imagine that the sensation it created in Islm was not much different from that in Christendom at the capture of Jerusalem by the First Crusade, or the completion of the Reconquista in Spain. These are similarly denigrated by modern opinion, but it is hard to imagine how the values at the time could have been different -- everyone should guard against an anachronistic indignation."

 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 07-Dec-2007 at 14:26
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 21:34
Drgonzaga
You are moving away from the 15th century setting, Bulldog, so as to speculate on clans and cultures while ignoring the political, which is the subject under discussion. I will not go into your attempt to thrust what is an essentially contemporary movement, Tengrism, into the hoary past of antiquity.
Give the West its New Age kooks
 
1. Ottoman state was established in 1299, the Kayi clan go back even further.
 
2. Learn what "folk religion" is. The Oghuz Turk tribemen during the period were muslim by "name".
 
 Suggested reading for you - Ibn Fadlan and Ibn Battuta's accounts. Stanford Shaws, History of Ottoman Empire and Turkey....
 
Here is an online article that could give youo some help
 
 
3. Your comparing apples with oranges. In Europe the masses were forbidden from keeping any beliefs deemed to be pagan and were persecuted as "heretics". In pre-Ottoman and early Ottoman eras the ordinary folk could believe as they wanted, they were able to keep their ways and cultures.
 
Dronzaga
The Ottomans were not the first Turks to assert a claim to rule in terms of the political symbols of their predecessor since the Seljuks did much the same when they formulated the Sultanate of Rm. The crescent as a symbol of Islam has nothing to do with religious symbolism and instead is a statement of a claim to imperial rule and is directly associated with the House of Osman, which subsequently imposed it as the Ottomans moved outward from Anatolia. The earliest known Turkic standards have no crescent. Perhaps you should take a look at this site so as to grasp the essence of continuity within change:
 
The crescent has had a deep cultural significance amongs Turks for thousands of years.
 
 
 
Three star and crescents appear on Gok-Turk coins.
 
There are many Turkic names involving "Ay", meaning moon.
 
The flag of the Kayi clan, the Kayikhan khanate was
 
 
The crescent battle tactic was created by Turks in war, it was sucessfully used in Manizkert.
 
 
The Seljuk king awarded Osman Ghazi leader of the Kayi clan a millitary band. Millitary bands and the army have totems, "Tugs", on the top of these are crescents.
 
 
 
The crescent as a symbol of Islam was a term given by crusaders who saw it being used by the muslim armies who were predominantly made up of Turks.
 
etc etc
 
 
Your theory is very weak as it ignores Turks used the crescent before conquering Constantinople. Also when the Turks entered the Byzantine flag wasn't a moon and star.
Wouldn't it had been more logical to adopt the cross or double headed eagle...
 
 
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 07-Dec-2007 at 21:35
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 22:52
Misguided nationalism getting to you, Bulldog?
 
Talk about weak theories and a handy display of out of context imagery. Perhaps you want the coin in proper context:
 
 
As for the late representation of a mehter standard and associating it with 1299 rather than with the Janissaries...please make better use of mehtertv.com
 
 
As for heretics, there are certain sectors in Islam that view the dervish as heretical so please don't attempt flights of fancy.
 
What next a picture of Kemal Pasha in Janissary dress?
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 16:23
Drgonzaga
Misguided nationalism getting to you, Bulldog?
 
Are wild conspiracy stories getting to you?
 
All you seem to interested in is making accusations.
 
It has nothing to do with nationalism, the Sumerians used moon symbols, the Egyptians had a moon deity, the moon and star have been used by many different cultures including "Turks" but you seem to have a problem accepting this as it doesn't fit "your view".
 
Drgonzaga
As for the late representation of a mehter standard and associating it with 1299 rather than with the Janissaries
 
Its clear you don't have a clue about the Mehter.
 
Prior to Ottomans it was used in the Seljuk era where they bought it with them from Central Asia. Upon the frontier beylik of Osman ghazi's victories a millitary band and "tughs" were given as a gift by the Seljuk king.
 
 
Drgonzaga
As for heretics, there are certain sectors in Islam that view the dervish as heretical so please don't attempt flights of fancy.
 
Do you have trouble reading?
 
I clearly stated that in pre and early Ottoman eras there was no persecution against different sects, infact most of the Beyliks were following sufi movements like Yasavi an offshoot of this Bektashi and so on including the Ottomans.
 
The folk wern't targetted, there was an educated religous elite, sufi mystics and dervishes and then folk religion, that is how elements of pre-Islamic religous customs were continued.
 
Drgonzaga
What next a picture of Kemal Pasha in Janissary dress?
 
You can open another post if you have such a fascination with his pictures.
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 18:07

Most of the kings of the rpd-dynasty were showed on their seals with crescent and sun (very similar to the David-star) above them.

Maybe that habit came from the khazars : they got two leaders, a military commander and a sacral kagan. After Ibn Rusta and Gardizhi, the sun was the simbol of the military leader, a sun made of wood and metal was carried before him when he was proceeding with the army. So the crescent could be the sign of the kagan.
 
Even in the seklers coat of arms is the crescent and the sun too.
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 18:30
Apparently, Bulldog, you are quite upset over any possibility that political symbols might have and exercised to such a degree that you move through obscure detritus so as to belittle the obvious. Did it ever occur to you even while making reference to the Seljuks that they identified their "state" as the Sultante of Rm--that is Rome and not the one in Italy!?! If a problem exists, it is one closely associated with the warnings of Burckhardt in the elaboration of history: respect the past for its own exigencies and understandings and do not try to impose your contemporary concepts onto the past. The appearnce of the crescent on military flags represent a phenomenon of the 15th century. And if you read closely, you do not find any assertion on my part that implies what you infer. If you read closely you will find that my premise was a simple one: the crescent was never a symbol of Islam per se and its modern associations are a function of Turkish imperialism subsequent to the 15th century and Western perceptions consequent to this imperialism. That it was not an unfamilar symbolism in a Balkan context is another matter entirely. Neither the Omayyads nor the Abassids utilized the crescent in architectural art. Perhaps it would soothe your boiling blood to read matters from a vexillological perspective:
 
 
Besides, many perfectly sound Muslims reject the crescent as a symbol of Islam.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 19:45
Drgonzaga
Apparently, Bulldog, you are quite upset over any possibility that political symbols
 
The issue is not subjective and is nothing to get emotional about.
The fact of the matter is, your claim is historically inaccurate, Turks were using the crescent and star way before conquering Constantinople.
 
Drgonzaga
Did it ever occur to you even while making reference to the Seljuks that they identified their "state" as the Sultante of Rm--that is Rome and not the one in Italy!?
 
The Great Seljuk Empire fragmented into Seljuk of Syria, Kerman, Rum...Kwarzemshahs and so on.
 
Rum meaning "Roman lands", the Turks referred to Anatolia and West as Rum, the term Byzantine was later invented in Europe.
 
It was actually the European who named what the Turks called Rum as "Turchia" land of the Turks, after travel writers described the area as being totally foreign after the Turks had settled.
 
 
Drgonzaga
The appearnce of the crescent on military flags represent a phenomenon of the 15th century.
 
 
Kayi clans, Kayihan Khanate flag.
 
Do you know the Ottoman legend? It involved Osman Ghazi vision of a huge crescent...
 
 
the crescent was never a symbol of Islam per se
 
Islam has no symbols.
 
 
Neither the Omayyads nor the Abassids utilized the crescent in architectural art.
 
They were Arabs not Turks.
 
When they started employing or using Turkic slave armies, the crescent started being used, the crusaders associated it with muslims after fighting against these mainly Turkic soldiers.
 
 
Besides, many perfectly sound Muslims reject the crescent as a symbol of Islam.
 
What is a perfectly sound muslim? somebody that doesn't disagree with you...
 
The crescent as a symbol has been used since antiquity, what is so hard to accept about this, for Babylonians it was Babylonian, for Egyptions it was Egyptian, for Turks it was Turkish.
 
Everybody can see a crescent moon, its not exactly rocket science to work out many cultures could be using such a visable icon of the sky at once Wacko
 


Edited by Bulldog - 08-Dec-2007 at 19:46
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 23:42
Perhaps you are a bit overwrought, bulldog...why don't you take in a showing of Duck Soup and really observe imagery in play with verbal sparring. You said: 
 
"Everybody can see a crescent moon, its not exactly rocket science to work out many cultures could be using such a visable icon of the sky at once Wacko "                                                                         
But no one has ever seen it as displayed on all your totems, where the symbolism is more akin to the famed Tauride Horns! By the way, give up on bringing up Wiki and actually read the links posted. The more you go on the more embarrasing it becomes.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 00:17
Drgonzaga
But no one has ever seen it as displayed on all your totems
 
That's rich comming from somebody totally ignorant of Central Asian and Turkic history.
 
You read one view from a website and have taken it as the gospel truth being unable to consider anything else.
 
Here are some Tamgas of Mongolia
 
 
 
The upper left tamaga is dorm-a, signifying fire. The remaining tamagas take this primary symbol and add supplementary markings, to form new tamagas. Common marks are the small circle indicating sun (nar); the shallow crescent indicating moon (sar), and the s representing the ring of the tack bit (zuuzai). These are combined to form the new tamagas name, e.g. ireetei dorm-a tamaga (fire with throne) or sartai dorm-a tamaga (fire with moon). Some symbols, such as moon could be used as primary or secondary marks (see below left)
 
 
Here are some old Mongol and Central Asian flags
 
 
 
 
 
 
Regarding "Tengri Tagh" in modernday Kirgizistan
 
 
Another find we a large hemispheric sacrificial pot with two horizontal handles and a relief tamga (the seal of the master) resembling a crescent with the points directed downwards. Such pots were widespread in this region in the 2nd half of the 1st millennium and more than 10 such pots have been found at Issyk-Kul  but this pot was the largest. Ut is thought that such pots were used only on holidays and special occasions. The large size of these pots testify to big feasts of ancient cattle breeders in honour of their gods
 
 
 
Zengid Atabegs coins
 
 
 
Obverse: Turkish female bust wearing a three-pointed crown holding crescent; Zengid tamgha on the crescent. Kufic legend.
Reverse: Five line central Kufic legend; marginal legends.
 
 
Obverse: Turkish female bust wearing a three-pointed crown holding crescent; Zengid tamgha on the crescent. Kufic legend.
Reverse: Five line central Kufic legend; marginal legends.
> Note: Courtesy Richard Bilak collection.
 
Obverse: Turkish female bust wearing a three-pointed crown holding crescent; Zengid tamgha on the crescent. Kufic legend.
Reverse: Five line central Kufic legend; marginal legends.
 
 
 
The use of crescents, wolf heads on central asian stands by the millitary was common in the region.
 
When Mongols conquered Iran, this was documented.
 
The Mongols in Iran: Chingiz Khan to Uljaytu 1220-1309 By Judith G. Kolbas
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 09-Dec-2007 at 00:33
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 14:47
Hey, you are really wandering far afield and essentially asserting a political hegemony or identity that never existed among the Turkic tribes. Do you believe that elaborating insistent strawmen would divert from the central point: the crescent as a political statement of world empire. If honesty were the guiding principle then you would recognize the following:
"The ethnic name "Turk" as used by Turkish peoples, includes not only the above definition but also the ancestors of Turks who, correctly, were known by names other than the "Turk", but were Turkish themselves, were from Central Asia, spoke a form of Turkish language and appeared on the stage of history much earlier than 600 AD. Some people have called them proto-Turks, but nevertheless they were "Turks" ethnically, culturally and linguistically."
Polat Kaya. Search for the Origin of the Crescent and Star Motif in the Turkish Flag (1997)
 
Look, bulldog, you are attempting the padding of nationalist mythology that in a way does violence to the integrity of particular pasts. No one can ignore such a trait as found in the notions of those who posit sixteen great Turkish empires from the Hun down to the Ottoman:
e.g.
 
And such does form part of the Nationalist mythology of the present Republic of Turkey:
 
What you are doing is little more than indicating outrage at the questioning of nationalist scripture and simply projecting a desire to emphasize a dubious homogeneity having more to do with current pride rather than history. Timur showed as much sensisbility toward the Seljuk Turk (under your thrust his compatriot) as the British did to their American compatriots in the Washington of 1814. The Ottoman occupied a different world and answered to separate exigencies distinct from either Hun, Mongol, or any other Altaic group you wish to put forth. So, kindly desist from attempting an instruction on the fragments of history as fodder for the elaboration of ethnic pride (or in some instances a convenient premise for contemporary foreign policy as with Iraq's Turkomen). 


Edited by drgonzaga - 09-Dec-2007 at 20:46
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 18:36
Wow. Here are enough topics from the history of the "turks" and the turcic nations, with enough references too., so you could eventualy read them.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 21:00
Drgonzaga
Hey, you are really wandering far afield and essentially asserting a political hegemony or identity that never existed among the Turkic tribes
 
The crescent and star were used by Turkic and other Steppe peoples for thousands of years, unless your suggesting that all the sources in the last post are conspiracy theories created just to disagree with your blinkered outlook Wacko
 
Are you denying the use of all of the artifacts shown above...
 
Drgonzaga
Timur showed as much sensisbility toward the Seljuk Turk (under your thrust his compatriot) as the British did to their American compatriots in the Washington of 1814.
 
You can open a post regarding your views on this matter if you like but its not in the slightest related to the current discussion. 
 
The Ottoman occupied a different world and anwered to separate exigencies distinct from either Hun, Mongol, or any other Altaic group you wish to put forth.
 
Who founded the Ottomans?
 
 - The Kayi clan
 
Who were the Kayi clan
 
 - A branch of the Oghuz Turk confederacy
 
Where were the Oghuz Turks from?
 
 - Central Asia
 
 
I gave examples of various steppe states, empires and clans to show the common use of crescent and stars in their legends, mythology, clan identity, battle tactics, standards and flags.
 
Drgonzaga
So, kindly desist from attempting an instruction on the fragments of history as fodder for the elaboration of ethnic pride (or in some instances a convenient premise for contemporary foreign policy as with Iraq's Turkomen).
 
What are you waffling on about now...
 
The only person with polliticized views here is you. 
 
 
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 21:03
Tar has it not struck some as funny that the Turkic word for empire, İmparatorluğu, is not Turkic at all but stems directly from the Latin. In terms of political consciousness that is what is known as a telling point. Now watch some try to find some remote Altaic root for this direct borrowing from the Roman.
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 21:29
Well bulldog you have passed from the problematic to the argumentative and are actually transgressing the norms of proper historiography. Perhaps this little item would serve as a corrective on your repeated importunances: Challenging the National History--Competing discourses about a Conference by Didem Turkoglu
 
And here is some food for thought:
 
Now just who is apparently politicized and attempting to perpetuate the Turk Tarih Kurumu of the 1930s?


Edited by drgonzaga - 09-Dec-2007 at 21:33
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 21:58
Drgonzada
Tar has it not struck some as funny that the Turkic word for empire, İmparatorluğu, is not Turkic at all but stems directly from the Latin. In terms of political consciousness that is what is known as a telling point. Now watch some try to find some remote Altaic root for this direct borrowing from the Roman.
 
Has is not struck you that the Ottomans never used the word, "Empire", or "Imparatorlugu" and neither has any other Turkic state
 
The Ottomans officially referred to themselves as
دولت عالیه عثمانیه Devlet-i liye-yi Osmniyye
They didn't percieve themselves to be an empire either, Devlet-i Ebed-mddet, the eternal state.
 
Other Turkic states referred to themselves as "State" or "Khanate", "Khanligi", "Yurtu", "Beylik", "Atabeylik" etc
 
Imparatorlugu is a modern Turkish term, borrowed from Latin.
 
Please at least do some basic research about what your writting about...its just getting cringing reading this nonsense.
 
And for the rest of your sources, they are totally unrelated and yet further enforce your polliticized outlook, if you have a problem with some Turkish nationalists it doesn't mean you can deny anything Turkic, its ridiculous.
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 09-Dec-2007 at 22:06
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

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drgonzaga View Drop Down
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 23:28
And are you not imposing a modern word "state" to achieve the same ends? That you do not see what you are doing while heaping invective and sophomoric innuendo is rather sad. Even in your sudden introduction of  Devlet i Ebed mddet, the eternal "state", seems I've heard that appellation elsewhere--ah yes, Eternal Rome, shades of the Paleologii!
 
In essence, if you ego is so overwrought on this subject that you must forever have some retort that becomes hopeless muddle that essentially does violence to the past for the sake of your particular present, so be it.
 
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