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turks and etruscans are TROAN?

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Janissary
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  Quote turkos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: turks and etruscans are TROAN?
    Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 18:43
this subject was talked too much last year in turkey.professor haluk ahin showed many reasons turks to be troian(=luvians=hitittes) as their culture languages vs...fatih sultan mehmed sent a letter to vatican asks why romans(italians) behave us like an enemy as our brothers and coming from same blood.. he wants from romans to stop being like greeks. then in 1453 before conquiering of istanbul he came to anakkale(troy)with his army and he sweared to take revenge of hector.in ww1 ataturk did the same thing.haluk ahin believes that luvians and hitittes went to east in a leadership of general turcus and to west with paris.i will try to find these in english.
dont forget all events are repeating
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  Quote finikis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 18:21

ok one more thing!in old icaland dictionaries turk=troian

 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 13:00
No, I don't think that Trojans and Turks have any relation other than the fact that former Anatolians, including whatever was left of Trojans, now speak Turk.

Turks come from Central Asia where they probably migrated from further east or rather northeast at the end of the 2nd milennium BCE, displacing the previous IE populations (and probably mixing with them too). They migrated to SW Asia in historical times (after 1000 CE), most likely with the Mongol hordes initially. Here they soon became Caucasian in aspect.

This has nothing to do with Etruscans: because when Etruscans migrated from Anatolia or Aegean, there were no Turks there. Etruscan is a dead language but it is also a well known language (their script is precursor of our Latin alphabet, so reading it is no mistery), yet no relative apart of Lemnian and ancient Rhaetian have been found.

Late Etruscan Alphabet:



Compare with Ancient Latin Alphabet:


You can find Etruscan texts online at http://etp.classics.umass.edu/

A very comprehensive site on Etruscans is http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/ (they have even a forum too)


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  Quote finikis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 10:55

maju is it possible that after troian wars the anatolian groups to west(etruscans) and east(turks)?because in middle asia we can not see any turkish existence before this process.later turks came back to anatolia but of course thay have mixed with sw asians...but it is interesting to see still their genetics are similar.and languages of etruscans and turks are non-undo european.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 10:41
Originally posted by Alkiviades

Ah, more "aren't XYZ really Turks"!

I am developing a certain fondness on that kind of topics... can anyone actually make a list with the nations our resident Turanists claim- by posting a relevant topic -  to be Turks?

I find those topics very amusing - over at the FinnsarereallyTurks  topic I ROFL throughout the whole seven pages.


You're sick man. I just can't bear the hyper-agressive-nationalism portrayed in such topics, most of the time with no grounds at all. A little bit of friendly national pride or nationalist kidding is ok but that's pure a-scientifical hooliganism and actually hurts and may even scare more serious members with much to offer.

I decided not to look at that specific "Finnish are Turks" topic and it always surprised me that t was on top. I think it's been finally locked - surely for good reasons.

I think genetic studies are extremely flawed because they deal with non-homogenous populations anyway. Todays Turks are perhaps the most intermixed nation in this (heavily intermixed anyway) corner of world that is the southeastern Europe. How can one find "Turkish" genes, when Turks themselves seem to be a cocktail of Turkish, Anatolian, Greek, Arabic, Slavic, Albanian, Egyptian, Iranian and a host of other elements adding to the pool? Finding "Turks" in Italy only proves what common sense tells us: that the Italian gene pool is just as intermixtured as any other in the region.

Well, genetic studies are interesting. They have some limitations but they are a true new branch of bio-archaeology.

I'm not sure but I think that, in relation with most European populations, "Turk" genes can be seen as a pole: that carrying the most SW Asian genes. In this particular case it is relevant as the hypothesis is that Etruscans came from Anatolia, so considering Turkey as one of the "parents" makes sense. It has nothing to do with that Turan madness but actually with pre-Turkic populations, from which most modern Turks descend directly.

It is more relevant in this case because ancient Etruscan aristocrats had a big deal of Anatolian blood, or so it seems.


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Maju View Drop Down
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 10:30
Originally posted by finikis

so i have to change topic etruscans and turks

so what do u think about the site informaion? are the referances enough?



It is a serious and interesting study. It only deals with MtDNA but it is significative and interesting anyhow.

I personally like it because it seems to confirm my own preferential hypothesis of Etruscans and pre-Greek Aegeans (Troyans possibly) being related.

Notice anyhow that prior to Etruscan developement as nation/culture, cultural influences from the Aegean are obvious in southern and central Italy throught the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age. Nothing very spectacular, as Italy was rather undeveloped then but a clear continuous influence.

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  Quote finikis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 10:27

i am in research of the relationship with  troians romans and turks?i just want to know more..i found interesting things  from ottoman and roman archives..i will share them with u later...

actually i believe that byzantine is not the continuation of roman empire..

i am waiting your rewiews..i know i am not enough but sure u can help..

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  Quote Alkiviades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 10:16

Ah, more "aren't XYZ really Turks"!

I am developing a certain fondness on that kind of topics... can anyone actually make a list with the nations our resident Turanists claim- by posting a relevant topic -  to be Turks?

I find those topics very amusing - over at the FinnsarereallyTurks  topic I ROFL throughout the whole seven pages.

I think genetic studies are extremely flawed because they deal with non-homogenous populations anyway. Todays Turks are perhaps the most intermixed nation in this (heavily intermixed anyway) corner of world that is the southeastern Europe. How can one find "Turkish" genes, when Turks themselves seem to be a cocktail of Turkish, Anatolian, Greek, Arabic, Slavic, Albanian, Egyptian, Iranian and a host of other elements adding to the pool? Finding "Turks" in Italy only proves what common sense tells us: that the Italian gene pool is just as intermixtured as any other in the region.

 

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  Quote finikis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 10:03

so i have to change topic etruscans and turks

so what do u think about the site informaion? are the referances enough?

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Maju View Drop Down
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 09:56
I read the title and thought: what nonsense now? But actually the study is good and interesting.

On one side it's been speculated for long that Etruscans might come from the region of Troy: the fact that Lemnians spoke and wrote in an Etruscan dialect, the fact that their culture shows some striking resemblances with that of Minoan Crete, some classical sources suggesting that they came from Lydia and the fact that Romans kept a tradition of Troyan ascendency via Eneas (probably borrowed from Etruscans, who ruled Rome for some time) all pointed in that direction.

Yet the archaelogical sequence shows continuity for Etruscan settlements since 1300 BCE, this and other factors caused some to believe that they were actually native from Italy.

The truth may be somewhere in the middle: the ruling class and its language could come from Anatolia or other Aegean areas, while the mass of the population could be native. This would explain what the authors of the study find puzzling:


As for the second question, which concerned the genetic relationships between the Etruscans and modern populations, various tests show that the Tuscans are the Etruscans' closest neighbors in terms of genetic distances. Despite that broad similarity, however, Etruscans and Tuscans share only two haplotypes. This finding is difficult to interpret (...)

Social structure may have affected these results. All skeletons we typed were found in tombs containing artifacts that could be attributed with confidence to the Etruscan culture. Those tombs typically belong the social elites (Barker and Rasmussen 1998), and so the individuals we studied may represent a specific social group, the upper classes. We do not know whether that group differed genetically from the rest of the population, which might be the case when a foreign elite imposes its rule, and often its language, over a region (Renfrew 1989). If the upper class had indeed somewhat distinct DNAs, our results could mean that this elite class became largely extinct, while the rest of the population, whose DNA we do not know, may well have contributed to the modern gene pool of Tuscany. (...)


Anyhow the study does seem to prove an Anatolian or Aegean connection to the Etruscan elites, whose remains have been analyzed.

But the title of this topic (Turks and Italians are TROYAN) may be too far from reality. If you read the main table:



... you realize that modern Italians are not Turk (just about 10%) but actually Basque

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  Quote Attila2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 09:30

think its too unaccurate

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  Quote finikis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 08:55

This subject is verypopular in last times..i found this genetic results..i wonder if there is someone in AE can give more info to us..

http://sophistikatedkids.com/turkic/34Etruscans/EtruskGeneti csEn.htm



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