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turkos
Janissary
Joined: 04-Aug-2005
Location: Turkey
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Topic: turks and etruscans are TROAN? Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 18:43 |
this subject was talked too much last year in turkey.professor haluk ahin showed many reasons turks to be troian(=luvians=hitittes) as their culture languages vs...fatih sultan mehmed sent a letter to vatican asks why romans(italians) behave us like an enemy as our brothers and coming from same blood.. he wants from romans to stop being like greeks. then in 1453 before conquiering of istanbul he came to anakkale(troy)with his army and he sweared to take revenge of hector.in ww1 ataturk did the same thing.haluk ahin believes that luvians and hitittes went to east in a leadership of general turcus and to west with paris.i will try to find these in english.
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dont forget all events are repeating
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finikis
Knight
Joined: 06-Oct-2005
Location: Belgium
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Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 18:21 |
ok one more thing!in old icaland dictionaries turk=troian
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Maju
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Joined: 14-Jul-2005
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Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 13:00 |
No, I don't think that Trojans and Turks have any relation other than
the fact that former Anatolians, including whatever was left of
Trojans, now speak Turk.
Turks come from Central Asia where they probably migrated from further
east or rather northeast at the end of the 2nd milennium BCE,
displacing the previous IE populations (and probably mixing with them
too). They migrated to SW Asia in historical times (after 1000 CE),
most likely with the Mongol hordes initially. Here they soon became
Caucasian in aspect.
This has nothing to do with Etruscans: because when Etruscans migrated
from Anatolia or Aegean, there were no Turks there. Etruscan is a dead
language but it is also a well known language (their script is
precursor of our Latin alphabet, so reading it is no mistery), yet no
relative apart of Lemnian and ancient Rhaetian have been found.
Late Etruscan Alphabet:
Compare with Ancient Latin Alphabet:
You can find Etruscan texts online at http://etp.classics.umass.edu/
A very comprehensive site on Etruscans is http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/ (they have even a forum too)
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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finikis
Knight
Joined: 06-Oct-2005
Location: Belgium
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Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 10:55 |
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Maju
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Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 10:41 |
Originally posted by Alkiviades
Ah, more "aren't XYZ really Turks"!
I am developing a certain fondness on that kind of topics... can
anyone actually make a list with the nations our resident Turanists
claim- by posting a relevant topic - to be Turks?
I find those topics very amusing - over at the FinnsarereallyTurks topic I ROFL throughout the whole seven pages. |
You're sick man. I just can't bear the hyper-agressive-nationalism
portrayed in such topics, most of the time with no grounds at all. A
little bit of friendly national pride or nationalist kidding is ok but
that's pure a-scientifical hooliganism and actually hurts and may even
scare more serious members with much to offer.
I decided not to look at that specific "Finnish are Turks" topic and
it always surprised me that t was on top. I think it's been finally
locked - surely for good reasons.
I think genetic studies are extremely flawed because they
deal with non-homogenous populations anyway. Todays Turks are perhaps
the most intermixed nation in this (heavily intermixed anyway) corner
of world that is the southeastern Europe. How can one find "Turkish"
genes, when Turks themselves seem to be a cocktail of
Turkish, Anatolian, Greek, Arabic, Slavic, Albanian,
Egyptian, Iranian and a host of other elements adding to the pool?
Finding "Turks" in Italy only proves what common sense tells us: that
the Italian gene pool is just as intermixtured as any other in the
region. |
Well, genetic studies are interesting. They have some limitations but they are a true new branch of bio-archaeology.
I'm not sure but I think that, in relation with most European
populations, "Turk" genes can be seen as a pole: that carrying the most
SW Asian genes. In this particular case it is relevant as the
hypothesis is that Etruscans came from Anatolia, so considering Turkey
as one of the "parents" makes sense. It has nothing to do with that
Turan madness but actually with pre-Turkic populations, from which most
modern Turks descend directly.
It is more relevant in this case because ancient Etruscan aristocrats had a big deal of Anatolian blood, or so it seems.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
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Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 10:30 |
Originally posted by finikis
so i have to change topic etruscans and turks
so what do u think about the site informaion? are the referances enough? |
It is a serious and interesting study. It only deals with MtDNA but it is significative and interesting anyhow.
I personally like it because it seems to confirm my own preferential
hypothesis of Etruscans and pre-Greek Aegeans (Troyans possibly) being
related.
Notice anyhow that prior to Etruscan developement as nation/culture,
cultural influences from the Aegean are obvious in southern and central
Italy throught the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age. Nothing very
spectacular, as Italy was rather undeveloped then but a clear
continuous influence.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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finikis
Knight
Joined: 06-Oct-2005
Location: Belgium
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Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 10:27 |
i am in research of the relationship with troians romans and turks?i just want to know more..i found interesting things from ottoman and roman archives..i will share them with u later...
actually i believe that byzantine is not the continuation of roman empire..
i am waiting your rewiews..i know i am not enough but sure u can help..
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Alkiviades
Baron
Joined: 01-Sep-2005
Location: Antarctica
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Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 10:16 |
Ah, more "aren't XYZ really Turks"!
I am developing a certain fondness on that kind of topics... can anyone actually make a list with the nations our resident Turanists claim- by posting a relevant topic - to be Turks?
I find those topics very amusing - over at the FinnsarereallyTurks topic I ROFL throughout the whole seven pages.
I think genetic studies are extremely flawed because they deal with non-homogenous populations anyway. Todays Turks are perhaps the most intermixed nation in this (heavily intermixed anyway) corner of world that is the southeastern Europe. How can one find "Turkish" genes, when Turks themselves seem to be a cocktail of Turkish, Anatolian, Greek, Arabic, Slavic, Albanian, Egyptian, Iranian and a host of other elements adding to the pool? Finding "Turks" in Italy only proves what common sense tells us: that the Italian gene pool is just as intermixtured as any other in the region.
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finikis
Knight
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Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 10:03 |
so i have to change topic etruscans and turks
so what do u think about the site informaion? are the referances enough?
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Maju
King
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Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 09:56 |
I read the title and thought: what nonsense now? But actually the study is good and interesting.
On one side it's been speculated for long that Etruscans might come
from the region of Troy: the fact that Lemnians spoke and wrote in an
Etruscan dialect, the fact that their culture shows some striking
resemblances with that of Minoan Crete, some classical sources
suggesting that they came from Lydia and
the fact that Romans kept a tradition of Troyan ascendency via Eneas
(probably borrowed from Etruscans, who ruled Rome for some time) all
pointed in that direction.
Yet the archaelogical sequence shows continuity for Etruscan
settlements since 1300 BCE, this and other factors caused some to
believe that they were actually native from Italy.
The truth may be somewhere in the middle: the ruling class and its
language could come from Anatolia or other Aegean areas, while the mass
of the population could be native. This would explain what the authors
of the study find puzzling:
As for the second question, which concerned the
genetic relationships between the Etruscans and modern populations,
various tests show that the Tuscans are the
Etruscans' closest neighbors in terms of genetic distances.
Despite that broad similarity, however, Etruscans and Tuscans
share only two haplotypes. This finding is difficult
to interpret (...)
Social structure may have affected these results.
All skeletons we typed were found in tombs containing
artifacts that could be attributed with confidence to the
Etruscan culture. Those tombs typically belong the social
elites (Barker and Rasmussen 1998), and so
the individuals we studied may represent a specific social
group, the upper classes. We do not know whether
that group differed genetically from the rest of the
population, which might be the case when a foreign elite
imposes its rule, and often its language, over a
region (Renfrew 1989). If the upper
class had indeed somewhat distinct DNAs, our results could
mean that this elite class became largely extinct,
while the rest of the population, whose DNA we do not
know, may well have contributed to the modern gene
pool of Tuscany. (...)
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Anyhow the study does seem to prove an Anatolian or Aegean connection to the Etruscan elites, whose remains have been analyzed.
But the title of this topic ( Turks and Italians are TROYAN) may be too far from reality. If you read the main table:
... you realize that modern Italians are not Turk (just about 10%) but actually Basque
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Attila2
Pretorian
Joined: 03-Oct-2005
Location: Turkey
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Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 09:30 |
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finikis
Knight
Joined: 06-Oct-2005
Location: Belgium
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Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 08:55 |
This subject is verypopular in last times..i found this genetic results..i wonder if there is someone in AE can give more info to us..
http://sophistikatedkids.com/turkic/34Etruscans/EtruskGeneti csEn.htm
Edited by finikis
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