QuoteReplyTopic: turks and etruscans are TROAN? Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 06:52
I will follow with outmost interest this linguistic discussion. But in
any case, IEs should have come from outside (or be original to Greece,
what is extremely unlikely), wether or not there are conclussive proofs
of that invasion/migration.
The linguistic evidence points to more than one ethno-linguistic entity
in Greece. Studies of the Greek language itself have shown that there
is a substratum of words without Greek etymology. The interesting
thing about this is that these non-Greek words fall into discernable
categories. Greek words for Mediterranean plants such as the fig,
olive, hyacinth, cypress, laurel, marjoram, chickpea, chestnut, cherry
and parsnip were not originally Greek. The names of animals such as
ass, the wild ox and the beetle are likewise originally non-Greek.
Other words included such for metal, tin, bronze, lead, jar, pail, oil
flask, sword, javelin, cornice, coping, chamber, bath tub and brick.
Words for social/political concepts including basileos "king", doulos
"slave", and "concubine" weren't originally Greek. Now add to this,
the names of heros and divinities such as Achilles, Theseus, Athene,
Aphrodite, and Hermes. We can even add to this list place-names such
as Corinth, Knossos, Salamis, Larisa, Samos, and even Olympus and
Mycenae. In the final analysis, the "vocabulary suggests that these
borrowings were not wholly random, but rather tend to focus on words
that a population intrusive into a new land might be expected to adopt
from the previous inhabitants." (In Search of the Indo-Europeans, by
J.P. Mallory, page 68).
I for one would like to see how exactly can some foreign loan words
constitute proof, enough proof to consider anthropologic research as
false (presented before see Angel). Since when is 'bous' = ox non
Hellinic and what does Mallory present?
Is it the rediculous origin from the Sanskrit 'ganh' that is explained
by insisting on a single unknown original word of many convenient forms
that gave us all the later...???
What is exactly the origin of 'plinthos'= brick if not Hellinic
and exactly what does it tell us about the words that form it,
'plassw'+ 'lithos' ?
Would this mean the Hellinic language not only adopted the word but also the words that form it ???
How does this theory propose to convince us that not only did they
adopt a foreign word/ name (Aphrodite) that has a clear connection to
the myth of emerging from the sea, but even managed to break it down
into 'aphro' and 'duth' and use those two words individually as also
seen above?
Of course the lands of Hellas weren't only inhabbited by Hellines and
of course the Hellinic language has it's share of loans, ancient texts
do tell us this quite clearly..
But it is more than obvious that in their delirium of trying to make
finds of doubtable historic accuracy, these 'scholars' jump to many
conclussions that aren't based on serious research..
Which in this case is presenting every non-IE word as a pre-IE adoption
and thus rejecting the very existance of a language before the
invisible IE invasions, which is literally unacceptale and unprovable..
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Well yes but he also mentions in the exact same text, that the Peasgians were originally neighbors of those now called Dorians and settled in Thessaly. Which rather points to an 'out of Hellas' migration that to that of 'out of the Levant'..
The point is that regardless of where the Pelasgians originated, Greece as part of the Levant, was still in the Levant. Besides, Homer mentions Pelasgians as inhabitants of Greece (Book 2.680) as well as inhabitants of western Anatolia (Book 2.840-844) these last being Trojan allies.
I wouldn't say that Hiksos colonized Egypt, they rather conquered it. It's not the colonizing case of more advanced peoples on less advanced ones but rather the opposite case of less developed tribes invading a more advanced one, something that not always ends with the cultural assimilation of the invaded (examples: steppary invaders of China, Germanic invaders of Rome).
The Hyksos were colonizing the Egyptian Delta for at least a century or two before the actual "conquest".
But anyhow, you're right that it can be the other way... can't decide. You see: if Etruscans were native of Italy as to share with Iberians and Ligurians the Cardium Pottery Mediterranean Neolithic background, their language should be expected to be similar. Yet they don't sound the same at all (phonetically Iberian is close to Basque, sounds simmilar and uses the same type of consonants - Etruscan does not: you won't find Ps and Fs in Iberian, but you find Bs and Gs, which Etruscan doesn't have).
You are assuming that cultural uniformity means linguistic uniformity as well. This may be more true for an intrusive IE cultural complex, but not necessarily so for native cultures. If we were to postulate an average original linguistic region in square miles (or square kms) we can fit from 20 to 40 different languages including PIE into the area of Europe given that studies have yielded a range of any given historical language as between 25,000 to 1 million square miles. Now, assuming that, like PIE, linguistic differentiation occurred with the other languages, we can assume many language families within Europe including Iberian, Tartessian, Euskarian, and Etruscan as among the better known historically attested non-IE languages. Even today, the only other non-IE language family which survives in Europe, Finno-Ugrian may be brought into this picture. The point is that regardless if whether Etruscans share cultural traits with the Ligurians and Iberians at such a remote period, this still does not assume that they were related linguistically. Statistically, each may represent a different non-IE language family altogether.
Now, regarding the Etruscans, they can be discernable by about 900 BC with emergence of the Villanova Culture (c. 900-700 BC). The problem is that even before that, the Proto-Villanova Culture (c. 1100-900 BC) which is characterized by a uniformity of culture covering almost the entire extent of continental Italy, was in areas where known IE languages were spoken. In terms of culture therefore, either the Etruscans owned the whole length of Italy, or they adopted IE culture. The Proto-Villanova Culture is supposedly derived from the central European urnfield tradition, which is identified with IE culture. It thus becomes quite certain that the native Etruscans adopted an Italian version of IE culture. Since there is no evidence at this period of "oriental" elements entering Italy, assimilation of "Lydians" is the simplest theory to consider. In fact, when we first discern "oriental" styles in Etruscan artefacts (indeed, also in the rest of Italy) they occured only by about 750 BC.
Could this mean that at some time Hellas was pluriethnic and ot just Greek?
The linguistic evidence points to more than one ethno-linguistic entity in Greece. Studies of the Greek language itself have shown that there is a substratum of words without Greek etymology. The interesting thing about this is that these non-Greek words fall into discernable categories. Greek words for Mediterranean plants such as the fig, olive, hyacinth, cypress, laurel, marjoram, chickpea, chestnut, cherry and parsnip were not originally Greek. The names of animals such as ass, the wild ox and the beetle are likewise originally non-Greek. Other words included such for metal, tin, bronze, lead, jar, pail, oil flask, sword, javelin, cornice, coping, chamber, bath tub and brick. Words for social/political concepts including basileos "king", doulos "slave", and "concubine" weren't originally Greek. Now add to this, the names of heros and divinities such as Achilles, Theseus, Athene, Aphrodite, and Hermes. We can even add to this list place-names such as Corinth, Knossos, Salamis, Larisa, Samos, and even Olympus and Mycenae. In the final analysis, the "vocabulary suggests that these borrowings were not wholly random, but rather tend to focus on words that a population intrusive into a new land might be expected to adopt from the previous inhabitants." (In Search of the Indo-Europeans, by J.P. Mallory, page 68).
Herodotus speaks of Lemnians as Pelasgians and their language related
to other peoples further north in the Balkans (Book 1.57) calling them
"neighbors to the Tyrrhenians".
Well yes but he also mentions in the exact same text, that the
Peasgians were originally neighbors of those now called Dorians and
settled in Thessaly. Which rather points to an 'out of Hellas'
migration that to that of 'out of the Levant'..
Could this mean that at some time Hellas was pluriethnic and ot just Greek?
I'm personally inclined to believe that
colonizers are more likely to assimilate colonized ones than vice versa
and I tend to think that the Aegean->Italy migration did happen at
some time probably in the turbulent period that comprises the Sea
Peoples' campaigns and the destruction of Troy at the end of the 2nd
milennium BCE.
Like I said, colonization from the Levant to the western
Mediterranean was something that is verfiable. As for colonizers
vs. natives, it really depends. The Hyksos colonized Egypt, yet
they did not "Hyksosized" the Egyptians.
Indo-Aryan groups became rulers of the Hurrians, yet they did not
Aryanize the Hurrians. The Turkic Bulgars ruled the Thracian
Slavs but they were Slavicised.
I wouldn't say that Hiksos colonized Egypt, they rather conquered it.
It's not the colonizing case of more advanced peoples on less advanced
ones but rather the opposite case of less developed tribes invading a
more advanced one, something that not always ends with the cultural
assimilation of the invaded (examples: steppary invaders of China,
Germanic invaders of Rome).
But anyhow, you're right that it can be the other way... can't decide.
You see: if Etruscans were native of Italy as to share with Iberians
and Ligurians the Cardium Pottery Mediterranean Neolithic background,
their language should be expected to be similar. Yet they don't sound
the same at all (phonetically Iberian
is close to Basque, sounds simmilar and uses the same type of
consonants - Etruscan does not: you won't find Ps and Fs in Iberian,
but you find Bs and Gs, which Etruscan doesn't have).
Yet, it's known that during the Chalcolithic (pan-European chronology),
Aegean/Balcanic influence does show a clear mark in southern and
central Italy (Tuscany included). This could have been such an early
colonization as to be considered "native" for the times we are
considering. But still would imply a connection with either the Aegean
or the Balcans (Rakhmani-Bubanji-Hum complex specially).
Well it's not actually so much my explanation but what Alkman a pre-Socratic poet (6th cent BC) has written.
An Oxyrhynchus papyrus (number 2390) contains a quotation that mentions
the above text. He stated that Thetis (she/he who sets/puts in place),
was the one that put matter in order so the world was able to develop.
This is totally unrelated to 'Thalassa' which derives from 'thalw' = to abound and 'alas' = salt.
Herodotus speaks of Lemnians as Pelasgians and their language related
to other peoples further north in the Balkans (Book 1.57) calling them
"neighbors to the Tyrrhenians".
Well yes but he also mentions in the exact same text, that the
Peasgians were originally neighbors of those now called Dorians and
settled in Thessaly. Which rather points to an 'out of Hellas'
migration that to that of 'out of the Levant'..
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
The problem with the Aeneas story of having sailed to Italy is that the earliest attestations (In Homer and Hesiod) mention no such tradition. Instead, the Homeric tradition makes Aeneas the new king of the Trojans as well as his descendants after the Sack of Troy (Illiad 20.307) (Homeric Hymns - To Aphrodite 191-198). Later, according to the Little Illiad, Aeneas was taken as a prize by Neoptolemus to Pharsalia (frag. 14). In The Sack of Troy, Aeneas simply withdraws from Troy to Mt. Ida before the Greeks took the city. Thus it is several hundred years before there is a tie-in with Romans. The Greeks know of a much older tradition independent of the "Aeneas tradition" regarding the Romans. Accordingly, the earliest tradition as known by Stesichorus (c. 600 BC) makes the founder the Rome itself a female named "Roma" who fled from Troy. Since Stesichorus was contemporary with the later Homeric tradition, the tie-in of Aeneas with Rome was of much later date, but the Trojan connection itself is quite early.
To add some infos, according to Little Iliad, Aeneas was taken as plunder together with Andromache from Neoptolemus at the return from Troy. Later he was released after the death of Neoptolemus but according to other interpretation Aeneas was released during the time of Troy's looting. According to a surmise of Hellanikos, Aeneas got away from Troy and he came by sea to Pallini of Halkidiki and then, through the country of Molossians he went to Italy where he built Rome. As a matter of fact, it was found in Halkidiki an ancient coin of 6th Century BC, portraying Aeneas.
A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
I'm personally inclined to believe that colonizers are more likely to assimilate colonized ones than vice versa and I tend to think that the Aegean->Italy migration did happen at some time probably in the turbulent period that comprises the Sea Peoples' campaigns and the destruction of Troy at the end of the 2nd milennium BCE.
Like I said, colonization from the Levant to the western Mediterranean was something that is verfiable. As for colonizers vs. natives, it really depends. The Hyksos colonized Egypt, yet they did not "Hyksosized" the Egyptians. Indo-Aryan groups became rulers of the Hurrians, yet they did not Aryanize the Hurrians. The Turkic Bulgars ruled the Thracian Slavs but they were Slavicised.
Nah, man! I didn't understand a word of your explanation actually but, if we're going to speculate on thalassos, I'd say it's a clear Basque word (itsaso), a word that is also origin for English sea. You know that English like to shorten words.
But, seriously, I'd like to find out more on the Albanian connection.
Much of what Albanian Trilogy posted was pretty awful but this one got
me curious to find out more. The origin of Albanians themselves is
misterious enough to intrigue me.
I just loved reading how in the next word table 'he' tried to connect 'Thetis' to 'Thalassa' without knowing the basics. LINK
Had the author of this article/table ever read the Oxyrhynchus papyrus he
would know what the name is all about. Alkman tells us that :
""For when matter began to be established, a certain passage (poros),
like a beginning (arche), was created. Alkman says that the material of
everything was confused and not made.
Then, he says, there came into being he (or that, masculine) who
arranged everything; then a passage came into being, and when the
passage had gone past, a sign (tekmor) followed. And the passage is
like an origin, and the sign is like an end.
When Thetis came into being, these became the beginning and end of
everything, and all things have a similar nature to that of bronze, and
Thetis to that of the craftsman, and the way and the sign to the
beginning and the end... on account of sun and moon not yet having come
into being but matter (hyle) still being without distinction. There
came about therefore ... passage and sign and darkness. Day and moon
and thirdly darkness; the flashings; not merely day but with sun; first
there was only darkness, after this when it was separated "
So we find that
1) At the beginning matter was confused, there neither a Sun nor a
Moon. So the Sidereal Cosmos as we know it was literally undeveloped.
2)Untill someone was born (Thetis) that put everything in place like a craftsman would.
Thetis = from tithemi (e=hetta) which means "to set, put, place" = thetis = 'he one who places'
---
I could continue with words like 'elkw', 'thera' (with an hetta),
'krounos', ....etc still in use today or others that are obviously of
ancient origin....
The way I see it, it's just another propaganda attempt to introduce a
noble historic background... similar to some other self proclaimed
scholars that have presented a Batic origin for Homer's Troy, despite
the finds that undoubtably point to the exact location...
This, as a number of other attempts, be it that of Polat Kaya insisting
on a Turkish origin, Georgiev and his theory , Mellart proposing an
Anatolian origin, Z, Mayani (an Albanian Jew in origin citizen of
France) presenting the Albanian connection (these might very well be,
his tables), Gordeziani (a Georgian ) presenting an origin from
Kolchis.....etc are by no means acceptable theories, which is obviously
the reason that they are not accepted by the international
oranizations...
I guess we'll just have to wait and see...
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
I'm personally inclined to believe that colonizers are more likely to
assimilate colonized ones than vice versa and I tend to think that the
Aegean->Italy migration did happen at some time probably in the
turbulent period that comprises the Sea Peoples' campaigns and the
destruction of Troy at the end of the 2nd milennium BCE.
Yet your mentions of a Balcanic connection made me recall something
that was posted some time ago in a now locked post by suspended member
Albanian Trilogy (copy-and-paste, copy-and-paste ). He posted some curious transcriptions of Etruscan terms and surprising coincidences in Albanian (see http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4769& ;PN=3
and scroll down till you find some pics or scanned material on that).
This has been the only locked topic I have protested about because
while AT was an autist I did want to discuss more on some of the
Albanian origins theories and particularly in the possible
Etrsuco-Albano-Pelasgian connection.
Maybe this is the occasion to rescue those curious almost literal
Etrusco-Albanian translations and ask Vulkan (I think he's the only
Albanian member) if the translation is valid or is a far-fetched
speculation.
It is not inconceivable that peoples of the Levant could colonize the western Mediterranean. The Phoenicians and the Greeks are the most verified case and point. If there was a kernel of truth to Lydians colonizing Etruria it may be probably more truthful to simply say that the Lydian element was assimilated by the Etruscans whose culture was native. Not only was Lemnian related to Etruscan but perhaps also Rhaetian. There may have been, instead a substratum of pre-IE languages of which those three languages were the remnants. Herodotus speaks of Lemnians as Pelasgians and their language related to other peoples further north in the Balkans (Book 1.57) calling them "neighbors to the Tyrrhenians". It is curious that these particular Balkan Pelasgians were called "of Tyrrhenian race" (Thucydides 4.109). Therefore instead of looking for an "Etruscan" migration perhaps it is much better to think of natives of Italy a remnant of a much larger group of linguistically related peoples of southern Europe which gained an Anatolian element.
The problem with the Aeneas story of having sailed to Italy is that the earliest attestations (In Homer and Hesiod) mention no such tradition. Instead, the Homeric tradition makes Aeneas the new king of the Trojans as well as his descendants after the Sack of Troy (Illiad 20.307) (Homeric Hymns - To Aphrodite 191-198). Later, according to the Little Illiad, Aeneas was taken as a prize by Neoptolemus to Pharsalia (frag. 14). In The Sack of Troy, Aeneas simply withdraws from Troy to Mt. Ida before the Greeks took the city. Thus it is several hundred years before there is a tie-in with Romans. The Greeks know of a much older tradition independent of the "Aeneas tradition" regarding the Romans. Accordingly, the earliest tradition as known by Stesichorus (c. 600 BC) makes the founder the Rome itself a female named "Roma" who fled from Troy. Since Stesichorus was contemporary with the later Homeric tradition, the tie-in of Aeneas with Rome was of much later date, but the Trojan connection itself is quite early.
I havent read most of the posts on this thread, but even if Trojans migrated to Italy, what does that have to do with Turks?
There is also a theory that the Trojans migrated East after the Trojan
war, setting up shop in the Caucasus and giving steam to what would
become the Armenian culture. Its only a theory, though, but i have
heard it from some historians. I dont buy into that stuff, myself.
I'm sure that Virgil's Aeneid was created largely out of his
imagination, yet the ultimate source for the legend is older
(Apollodorus lived one century before him and Ovid's references are
also often considered to have older lost backgrounds). Virgil also
recycled some Greco-Italian mythological items to build up his stuff.
And, as I said before, you still have other 5 points to consider. I would never build a theory only on mythological materials.
Thats what my book of Mythology says, it was written by Virgil, but was ment to give the Romans a hero.
heres what the book says-
Originally posted by Edith Hamilton, Mythology Timeless Tales of Gods And Heroes. pg 230, introduction
]
The Aeneid, the greatest of Latin poems, is chief authority for this story. It was written when Augustus had taken over the bankrupt Roman world after the chaos that followed Caesar's assassination. His strong hand ended the furious civil wars and brought about Pax Augusta, which lasted nearly half a century. Virgil and all his generation were fired with enthusiasm for the new order, and the Aeneid was written to exalt the Empire, to provide a great national hero and a founder for "the race destined to hold the world beneath its rule" Virgil's patriotic purpose is probably responsible for the change from human Aeneas of the first books to theunhuman prodigy of the last. The poet was finally caried away into the purely fantasticby his determination to create a hero for Rome that would make all other heroes seem insignifcant. A tendency to exaggeration was Roman trait. The latin names of the gods are, of course, used; and the Latin forms in the case of any personage who has a Latin as well as a Greek name. Ulysses, for instance, is Latin for Odysseus.
Honestly I don't think this story can be held accountable as historical. It was just a tale to amuse the populace and give a sense of pride.If the Trojans did manage to come over, I doubt it had anything to do with them knowing about it and just took the character from the Greek poem and added more on him.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Even if you're right in that, you still have 51/2 points left to think about.
Now, on the legend of Aeneas, we have the first part, which is from the
Iliad, that clearly states that Aeneas and his family escaped helped by
Poseidon, as Aeneas was predestined to become king of the Trojan
people.
Then, the second part, which is the association of Aeneas to Italy (and
specifically to Rome) doesn't seem to be just an invention of Virgil
(not of Augustus in any case) but actually was dwindling in the
imaginary of the incipient Greco-Roman civilization from before. At
least Apollodorus seems to refer to that connection, and so does Ovid.
Anyhow, Virgil himself was a non-Roman Italian born near the Etruscan
city of Mantua. Maybe from that he gets his fascination for Aeneas and
his connection to Italy.
It could well be an old Etruscan asociation that was transfered to
Rome. At least there's more room to speculate than just attributing the
major literary work of the Aeneid to a political decision from
Augustus. Augustus pushed for the work to be published even if
unfinished, with all its literary defects like the vulgar pluralization
with -s, etc., but he didn't decide to write it and much less
added a single word to it. It was Virgil's work, his unfinished work of
10 years.
The Legend of Aeneas is just that, a legend. Augustus had it written to give the Romans a better identity and by the book I have was written for the new era of the empire to create a national hero for "the race destined to hold the world beneath its rule".
So back then they were going on much of anything except political propaganda when Augustus had ended a civil war, turned around a bankrupt empire, and had a period of peace.
The whole legend seems far fetched, when the Trojans landed and founded Rome they had also stole the women of a neighboring people. In all actualality the Romans were probably just a small village of native people that grew from farmers to the citizens of a empire.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
It's understood that, first, Troy wasn't just the city but also the
surrounding region (Troade) and that they had many allies (some of
which would probably be ethnically akin), and, second, that they could
have migrated prior to the destruction of the city. Regarding the first
point there's a whole legend of Aeneas, who supposedly survived
(outside the city) and founded Rome. Arfunda also noted that there are
other legends regarding other Anatolian peoples migrating to Italy.
Anyhow, if you read the article, it doesn't talk of Troyans as such but
Anatolians. They could be Luwians or Hittites or Lycians or Mysians or
Carians...
... actually the Anatolian "parentage" is just a reference, they could
well be from other nearby regions with simmilar genetics, like Greece.
The scope for the actual meaning of the study is wide enough for us to
speculate in the hope that further archaeological findings or
comprehensive studies give a better light to the issue.
By the moment we have that:
Etruscan aristocrats had a much greater level of Anatolian MtDNA (maternal lineage) than modern Italians, including modern Tuscans.
There is an island near ancient Troy (Lemnos) that was speaking and writing an Etruscan dialect.
There are two traditions of legendary Anatolian heroes that
reached Italy and founded nations there (Aeneas -> Latins, Enets
-> Veneti). These two western IE nations, probably original from
what's now Germany, were strongly influenced by Etruscans.
Etruscan is not IE.
Ancient references also talk of Etruscans possibly being Anatolian (Lydian) in origin.
In the obscure period of the foundation of the proto-Etruscan
culture of Vilanova and the destruction of Troy, there was a not less
obscure phenomenon known as the Sea Peoples that seem to have been the Vikings of
the Ancient Mediterranean and whose names can be identified partly with
Greeks but partly resemble rather Italian pre-IE peoples, including the
Rasnal (Etruscans).
Get your own conclussions. Not easy to decide, I must say.
Btw, I'm not sure that Armenians have much relation with Hittites. They
are rather said to have been Phrygian colonists. Lydians were Hittite
speakers.
We are talking over three thousand years. If your talking about the Trojan citizens of Troy, and if the legend of the city is true that they were pretty much wiped out from the Greeks, then I doubt there genetic lineage would have lived on, especially if they mixed. It's like with a cousin, you share 50% of your genetic code with them, by 2nd cousin about 25%, but 4th cousin your basicly not even family anymore. After Troy fell if there were survivors my guess is they'd be a hand full and any group coming in would basicly just wash there identity away because it's no more a isolated population so to speak.
But you can find the the group of people that made up the Trojans. If they were Hitittes, wouldn't the Armenians have a better chance of being the decendents, as Hititites are the ancestors of the Armenians right? This is just a question here, nothing I can really claim as being true or even possible.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum