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turks and etruscans are TROAN?

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  Quote ancalimon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: turks and etruscans are TROAN?
    Posted: 20-Sep-2011 at 20:27
First of all: There is no genetic identifier for being a Turk. Today it's a linguistic term. There are Turks all over the planet that don't look like each other. In fact it could even simply be a religious term in the past meaning "people with a similar law" because even during 11th century, some people speaking Turkic were not considered worthy of being a Turk because they had become polytheists unlike ancestors of Turks who were always monotheists. So being a Turk in the past was not about language, race, ethnic identity, friendship. It was more probably about religion. So even if a group of people spoke a Turkic dialect in the past does not necessarily make those people Turks.
It's simply about the origin of Proto-Language which might have been a form of Turkic language which got changed by some other Turkic speaking clergy who had power over simple people and who were hungry for even more power. Europeans proposed such a theory in the past called Sun-Language-Theory claiming Turkic language was the first ever language spoken on Earth but just like other theories during those times, it was laughable and full of bullshit and was researched very poorly and rejected as a result. The case was closed. We need new people to do proper research with proper tools at their disposal on the same theory. Unfortunately political (economy, racism) and cultural (religion) obstacles are too much to even think about reopening the closed Sun-Language-Theory.


Here are some Etruscan writings and how we read them in Turkic.




We can see the woman holding the hand of an armed man and say: ii ulaθ iline inaθ
It looks like a sad parting scene with a horse on the background. The soldier is probably heading for the horse after the farewell.

In Turkish the sentence would be:  İyi ulaş iline yınat.  (yınat is old Turkic meaning the following: cleanse wounds, get well, to still be alive)

İYİ: good, healthy, safe, well
ULAŞ: to reach
İL: country, civilization, to civilize other people
İLİNE: "to your country" or "your quest to civilize someone"

it says "reach your country safe and sound and cleanse your wounds"


Turkic Yınat becoming "inaθ"  (Y is dropped) and  T becoming θ (a sound between T and S) can be seen on other Etruscan writings as well.



We see a man driving a chariot.
ax1a iðuk aθe kufarke

the last two words:  aθe kufarke   : atı kuvar-koşar-kuşar eke:  
at: horse  
koşar: galloping ,running 
kuşar: to get ready
kuvar: driving away (to make something run away from you)    
eke: during   
> in Turkish: ATI KOŞAR İKEN - ATI KOŞARKEN > in English: while his horse was galloping,running.
or  ATI KUVARKEN: While driving his horse at high speed.


or for example:



Hermial kapzna slman

In Turkish: Hermes'in kapısına saldırma :  Don't attack the door of Hermes. (it's theorized that the person wrote this on the gravestone so that people would not damage the gravestone)




The soldier on the left says: enkten  It's engdin in Turkic and it means: you have made a mistake, you have been confused, you have been caught off guard.
I guess the rest of the picture speaks for itself. The soldier on the left says you made a mistake, you have been caught off guard and we can see the soldier on the right being caught off guard.

Work done by Doç, Dr. Çingiz KARAŞARLI. He is publishing a book about this.  I just translated these.

Edited by ancalimon - 24-Sep-2011 at 09:05
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 20:41
The genetics, with its appearance of scientific objectivity, holds obvious—albeit illusory—appeal. As Appelbaums remarked for nations with strong claims to territorial sovereignty, genetic data will be irrelevant; for nations with weak claims, such data will always be inadequate. Advocates who look to genetics for a decisive victory are certain to be disappointed. Nationality is a matter of culture and education and not genetic (mixtures) issue.
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 19:33
Originally posted by finikis

This subject is verypopular in last times..i found this genetic results..i wonder if there is someone in AE can give more info to us..


http://sophistikatedkids.com/turkic/34Etruscans/EtruskGeneti csEn.htm



If you talk about the Turks in present day Turkey then maybe but they are such a mix of different ethnics groups that I wonder if they could be still called Turkic. In my opinion though if they do not have Rum or Byzantine blood then I have my doubts, but there are other ethnic groups in that region who could possibly make that ethnic connection, Turkish people are so mixed today. I have been to Turkey and Greece and I saw all the different faces in Turkey. I thought Turkey is much more diverse than Greece but I saw diversity in Greece also.



Turkic - NO!! they came from around Mongollia
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 14:09
Alright. I read some articles on this study, and it does seem to strengthen Herodotus' story. I remain skeptical of DNA studies in general though, partly because of past experience with DNA studies that were carried out on the wrong premises, partly because I'm not a genetics scientist and thus I have no way of verifying the results for my own sake.
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 13:23
Actually the Etruscans being Anatolian, or more prescisely Lydian, is just one uncertain hypothesis among many concerning their origin. This one is particularly dubious as its based solely on a legend told by Herodotus.
That's not correct either. There were current studies which looked at their DNA and the DNA of their livestock and they both match Anatolians best. So it is not a dubious theory it is the current consensus.
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 13:19
Actually the Etruscans being Anatolian, or more prescisely Lydian, is just one uncertain hypothesis among many concerning their origin. This one is particularly dubious as its based solely on a legend told by Herodotus. There is some consensus though that they were members of the so-called Tyrsenian language group, supposedly non-Indo-European.

Originally posted by Boorock

Another link , İt is related with  a genetic study about etruscan origin which was made by a group of italian scientist in 2004.80 etruscan skeleton which were found the diggins in italy were analysed genetically and results were compared with all modern nations DNA structures , Finally It was clearly seen and understood that They were TURKİC.


Yeah...no. Ermm
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 12:18
Etruscans were Anatolians. So are the Turks, genetically speaking.

Etruscans are not Turkic, that is ridiculous. Turkic peoples lived in Central Asia at that time.  
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  Quote Boorock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 10:21
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1181945

Another link , İt is related with  a genetic study about etruscan origin which was made by a group of italian scientist in 2004.80 etruscan skeleton which were found the diggins in italy were analysed genetically and results were compared with all modern nations DNA structures , Finally It was clearly seen and understood that They were TURKİC.


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  Quote Boorock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 10:09
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  Quote finikis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2008 at 01:49
ok lets have a look the researching by Sacro Cuore University and results..
 
result:

A certain degree of affinity with Turkish and southern Anatolian breeds was also shown by Cinisara and Rendena. The former is autochthonous in Sicily, an important crossroad for Eastern Mediterranean cultures in the first millennium BC, as the remains of Punic and Greek colonies testify. The latter is raised in the mountain region along the Adige River (northeast Italy), where in ancient times the Raeti settled. Intriguingly, archaeological remains suggest that Raeti shared a common origin with Etruscans, because they had been speaking a proto-Etruscan language at least since the beginning of the Iron Age onwards (van der Meer 2004).

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 18:01
Keep this discussion civil guys. Debate the history without the innuendos.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 17:48
Drgonzaga
And are you not imposing a modern word "state" to achieve the same ends?
 
Instead of digging yourself into a deeper hole, why don't you just admit you were wrong and need to study these issues alot more.
 
I'm not "imposing" anything, just explaining the different names of the Ottomans.
 
Osmanlı Beyliği
l-i Osman
Bab-i Ali - The Sublime port
 
The term used by Arabs : Dawlat-e Ālīa-ē 'Usmānīah (The Sublime Ottoman State),
 
The Wests Latin referrence to the Ottomans :  Turchia, Imperium Turcicum 
 
etc etc
 
 
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 23:28
And are you not imposing a modern word "state" to achieve the same ends? That you do not see what you are doing while heaping invective and sophomoric innuendo is rather sad. Even in your sudden introduction of  Devlet i Ebed mddet, the eternal "state", seems I've heard that appellation elsewhere--ah yes, Eternal Rome, shades of the Paleologii!
 
In essence, if you ego is so overwrought on this subject that you must forever have some retort that becomes hopeless muddle that essentially does violence to the past for the sake of your particular present, so be it.
 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 21:58
Drgonzada
Tar has it not struck some as funny that the Turkic word for empire, İmparatorluğu, is not Turkic at all but stems directly from the Latin. In terms of political consciousness that is what is known as a telling point. Now watch some try to find some remote Altaic root for this direct borrowing from the Roman.
 
Has is not struck you that the Ottomans never used the word, "Empire", or "Imparatorlugu" and neither has any other Turkic state
 
The Ottomans officially referred to themselves as
دولت عالیه عثمانیه Devlet-i liye-yi Osmniyye
They didn't percieve themselves to be an empire either, Devlet-i Ebed-mddet, the eternal state.
 
Other Turkic states referred to themselves as "State" or "Khanate", "Khanligi", "Yurtu", "Beylik", "Atabeylik" etc
 
Imparatorlugu is a modern Turkish term, borrowed from Latin.
 
Please at least do some basic research about what your writting about...its just getting cringing reading this nonsense.
 
And for the rest of your sources, they are totally unrelated and yet further enforce your polliticized outlook, if you have a problem with some Turkish nationalists it doesn't mean you can deny anything Turkic, its ridiculous.
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 09-Dec-2007 at 22:06
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 21:29
Well bulldog you have passed from the problematic to the argumentative and are actually transgressing the norms of proper historiography. Perhaps this little item would serve as a corrective on your repeated importunances: Challenging the National History--Competing discourses about a Conference by Didem Turkoglu
 
And here is some food for thought:
 
Now just who is apparently politicized and attempting to perpetuate the Turk Tarih Kurumu of the 1930s?


Edited by drgonzaga - 09-Dec-2007 at 21:33
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 21:03
Tar has it not struck some as funny that the Turkic word for empire, İmparatorluğu, is not Turkic at all but stems directly from the Latin. In terms of political consciousness that is what is known as a telling point. Now watch some try to find some remote Altaic root for this direct borrowing from the Roman.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 21:00
Drgonzaga
Hey, you are really wandering far afield and essentially asserting a political hegemony or identity that never existed among the Turkic tribes
 
The crescent and star were used by Turkic and other Steppe peoples for thousands of years, unless your suggesting that all the sources in the last post are conspiracy theories created just to disagree with your blinkered outlook Wacko
 
Are you denying the use of all of the artifacts shown above...
 
Drgonzaga
Timur showed as much sensisbility toward the Seljuk Turk (under your thrust his compatriot) as the British did to their American compatriots in the Washington of 1814.
 
You can open a post regarding your views on this matter if you like but its not in the slightest related to the current discussion. 
 
The Ottoman occupied a different world and anwered to separate exigencies distinct from either Hun, Mongol, or any other Altaic group you wish to put forth.
 
Who founded the Ottomans?
 
 - The Kayi clan
 
Who were the Kayi clan
 
 - A branch of the Oghuz Turk confederacy
 
Where were the Oghuz Turks from?
 
 - Central Asia
 
 
I gave examples of various steppe states, empires and clans to show the common use of crescent and stars in their legends, mythology, clan identity, battle tactics, standards and flags.
 
Drgonzaga
So, kindly desist from attempting an instruction on the fragments of history as fodder for the elaboration of ethnic pride (or in some instances a convenient premise for contemporary foreign policy as with Iraq's Turkomen).
 
What are you waffling on about now...
 
The only person with polliticized views here is you. 
 
 
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 18:36
Wow. Here are enough topics from the history of the "turks" and the turcic nations, with enough references too., so you could eventualy read them.
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 14:47
Hey, you are really wandering far afield and essentially asserting a political hegemony or identity that never existed among the Turkic tribes. Do you believe that elaborating insistent strawmen would divert from the central point: the crescent as a political statement of world empire. If honesty were the guiding principle then you would recognize the following:
"The ethnic name "Turk" as used by Turkish peoples, includes not only the above definition but also the ancestors of Turks who, correctly, were known by names other than the "Turk", but were Turkish themselves, were from Central Asia, spoke a form of Turkish language and appeared on the stage of history much earlier than 600 AD. Some people have called them proto-Turks, but nevertheless they were "Turks" ethnically, culturally and linguistically."
Polat Kaya. Search for the Origin of the Crescent and Star Motif in the Turkish Flag (1997)
 
Look, bulldog, you are attempting the padding of nationalist mythology that in a way does violence to the integrity of particular pasts. No one can ignore such a trait as found in the notions of those who posit sixteen great Turkish empires from the Hun down to the Ottoman:
e.g.
 
And such does form part of the Nationalist mythology of the present Republic of Turkey:
 
What you are doing is little more than indicating outrage at the questioning of nationalist scripture and simply projecting a desire to emphasize a dubious homogeneity having more to do with current pride rather than history. Timur showed as much sensisbility toward the Seljuk Turk (under your thrust his compatriot) as the British did to their American compatriots in the Washington of 1814. The Ottoman occupied a different world and answered to separate exigencies distinct from either Hun, Mongol, or any other Altaic group you wish to put forth. So, kindly desist from attempting an instruction on the fragments of history as fodder for the elaboration of ethnic pride (or in some instances a convenient premise for contemporary foreign policy as with Iraq's Turkomen). 


Edited by drgonzaga - 09-Dec-2007 at 20:46
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 00:17
Drgonzaga
But no one has ever seen it as displayed on all your totems
 
That's rich comming from somebody totally ignorant of Central Asian and Turkic history.
 
You read one view from a website and have taken it as the gospel truth being unable to consider anything else.
 
Here are some Tamgas of Mongolia
 
 
 
The upper left tamaga is dorm-a, signifying fire. The remaining tamagas take this primary symbol and add supplementary markings, to form new tamagas. Common marks are the small circle indicating sun (nar); the shallow crescent indicating moon (sar), and the s representing the ring of the tack bit (zuuzai). These are combined to form the new tamagas name, e.g. ireetei dorm-a tamaga (fire with throne) or sartai dorm-a tamaga (fire with moon). Some symbols, such as moon could be used as primary or secondary marks (see below left)
 
 
Here are some old Mongol and Central Asian flags
 
 
 
 
 
 
Regarding "Tengri Tagh" in modernday Kirgizistan
 
 
Another find we a large hemispheric sacrificial pot with two horizontal handles and a relief tamga (the seal of the master) resembling a crescent with the points directed downwards. Such pots were widespread in this region in the 2nd half of the 1st millennium and more than 10 such pots have been found at Issyk-Kul  but this pot was the largest. Ut is thought that such pots were used only on holidays and special occasions. The large size of these pots testify to big feasts of ancient cattle breeders in honour of their gods
 
 
 
Zengid Atabegs coins
 
 
 
Obverse: Turkish female bust wearing a three-pointed crown holding crescent; Zengid tamgha on the crescent. Kufic legend.
Reverse: Five line central Kufic legend; marginal legends.
 
 
Obverse: Turkish female bust wearing a three-pointed crown holding crescent; Zengid tamgha on the crescent. Kufic legend.
Reverse: Five line central Kufic legend; marginal legends.
> Note: Courtesy Richard Bilak collection.
 
Obverse: Turkish female bust wearing a three-pointed crown holding crescent; Zengid tamgha on the crescent. Kufic legend.
Reverse: Five line central Kufic legend; marginal legends.
 
 
 
The use of crescents, wolf heads on central asian stands by the millitary was common in the region.
 
When Mongols conquered Iran, this was documented.
 
The Mongols in Iran: Chingiz Khan to Uljaytu 1220-1309 By Judith G. Kolbas
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 09-Dec-2007 at 00:33
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