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dirtnap
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Topic: The Cruelest Leader Posted: 10-Oct-2005 at 23:36 |
A bit of perspective...
Vlad took villages. Not nations.
Attila took nations but not if you paid him well enough.
Neither Stalin, Hitler nor Mao were fighting soldiers in the moments that define this "cruel" discussion but we all know Khan was swinging some steal from day 1 to the last.
Khan was the cruelest because he actually participated and nobody's casualties come close throughout the entire span of recorded history and nobody but Alexander conquered more territory.
Khan did it the biggest and was the most effective and his unyeilding participation and undying thirst for battle makes him the cruelest because he was on the front lines through it ALL and no ones numbers have ever come close...
Edited by dirtnap
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Texas
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Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 01:11 |
Pol Pot -------earns my vote --------------------yes on the much smaller scale of one nation--------------------------but --------------------- watch "the killing fields"
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Attila2
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Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 07:21 |
well,pol pot is paying for his sins,his grave is in a real bad shape and his skull is not inside AFAIK...
anyway,no "Mao"s???
Interesting,let me remind you of his attrocities towards the uighurs and kazakhs.
more than half million people were killed by his own command.
Though that leaves him as an angel compared to the rest of the leaders above
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giani_82
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Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 07:45 |
As one of my teachers likes to say the hights of (Lenin's) and Stalin's totalitarian regime were never reached, even by Hitler.
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"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising everytime we fall."
Confucius
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Perseas
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Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 13:25 |
To say someone is the most cruel, it falls into the eye of the beholder. Certainly the original question implies merely a comparison of degrees of cruelty in different leaders but if the greatest harm to the greatest number defines the term "most cruel leader" then firstly Stalin, secondly Mao, and Hitler are all overly quallified.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 18:15 |
Aeolus, that source seems a bit iffy. Where are the mass murdering African regimes of men like Idi Amin. And why are nations like the USA and France so conspicuously ommitted?
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Perseas
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Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 04:13 |
Constantine, if you take a look at the site you will find everything you asked for. The author has categorize genocides or better democides as he names them, under different tables.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
I found most of the references about African regimes in this link.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP14.HTM
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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 05:13 |
Originally posted by Constantine XI
Aeolus, that source seems a bit iffy. Where are the mass murdering African regimes of men like Idi Amin. And why are nations like the USA and France so conspicuously ommitted? |
And where is the UK supposed to have been responsible for nearly a million 'democides' in the period?
PS I've checked out the link and can't find any indication of the answer, just an asserted low estimate of 551,000, a 'mid' estimate of 816,000, and a high of 1,291,000.
Is he including enemy killed during a war?
Edited by gcle2003
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Behi
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Posted: 13-Oct-2005 at 05:46 |
as I said B4:
who can be as cruel as Changiz???
Who can kill 60,000,000 pepole in 60 years of life, each 1,000,000 pepole for 1 year life time of Changiz
after him, his heirs follow his way, Tatars & then Turks. but they never could shine as their Grandfather.
after their slaughters, We only have Nazies & Japanese but they couldn't slaughter as Mongol even with modern Weapons & Technology, & extra Population.
Compare 70 years ago Population & Technology to 6 Centuries ago
I think Mongols were biggest threat for humanity
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Behi
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Posted: 13-Oct-2005 at 05:50 |
These are my sources:
Originally posted by http://outer-rim.lweb.net/mythos/25point.html
"To cut my enemies to pieces, drive them before me, seize their possessions, witness the tears of those who are dear to them and embrace their wives and daughters is my greatest pleasure." - Genghis Kahn (as quoted by Rashid al Din) |
Originally posted by http://www.teachgenocide.org/bkgrnd/hitler.htm
In preparation for the impending invasion of Poland, Hitler stated to Reichmarshal Hermann Goering and the commanding generals at Obersalzberg... "Our strength consists in our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter - with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state. It's a matter of indifference to me what a weak western European civilization will say about me. |
Originally posted by http://thcenturyilluminations.com/beygen.html
Afghanistan has experienced genocide twice. In 1219 1221 Genghis Kahn transformed it from a major hub of trade and culture into a depopulated backwater. |
Originally posted by http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/China/02/Dgibbs/Dgibbs.htm
One day the future khan went fishing with his half brothers Bektair and Belguti. Temujin pulled out of the stream a golden fish. Bektair stole the fish leaving Temujin in tears. Later that day with a bow and an arrow the mighty boy hunted down his hated brother. Spotting him by the river, Temujin aimed and fired, killing Bektair." (Lister 37-39). It was the first murder out of many for the future Genghis Khan. |
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Originally posted by http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/China/02/Dgibbs/Dgibbs.htm
The Jin emperor offered gold, silver, and many other goods. This was enough to satisfy Genghis, and the Mongols withdrew. Soon after the treaty, Xuanzong escaped to the south. Genghis, unhappy with the advancement of Xuanzong, attacked Beijing in 1215. Afterwards nothing was left; the Mongols had taken everything and had slaughtered many people (Genghis-Beijing par.1). |
Originally posted by http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/China/02/Dgibbs/Dgibbs.htm
Before Genghis entered the world the Mongols were savage beasts dressed in dog skin. |
Originally posted by http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/China/02/Dgibbs/Dgibbs.htm
Genghis Khan will never be forgotten in world history. The Mongol Emperor will always be remembered for the barbaric battles. Genghis will be never forgotten for the savage victories against the Tartars, Naimans and the Merkits. The great khan will never be forgotten for the barbaric actions against the Jin emperor. Genghis Khan helped Mongolia in many ways like bringing wealth and a new language to the country of Mongolia. |
Originally posted by http://www.payvand.com/news/03/jun/1074.html
The invasion of Iran in 13th century by the three sons of Genghis Khan was brutal. Nearly three million perished in an act of genocide that finds its parallels only in the extermination of Jews and the Armenians in the 20th century. |
Originally posted by http://library.thinkquest.org/C004775/liu/Untitled(generalsGenghisKhan).htm
The legacy of Genghis Khan is as terrifying as genocide and as dreadful as the plague |
Originally posted by http://www.luc.edu/publications/medieval/vol2/2ch13.html
At first Western Europe viewed the Mongols as enemies of Islam, and thus as friends of all Christians. However, this early Western hope and expected friendship soon changed to fear and terror, as the Mongols conquered all of Christian Russia by 1240. The Mongols were too cruel and too vicious to the Russian Christians to be either Prester John or his son, King David.
In 1241, the Mongols entered Poland and Hungary in full force about 150,000 strong. Most Western Christians were stunned and shocked as this highly mobile and well-organized Mongol army quickly and decisively defeated the Poles and Germans at Leignitz and the Hungarians and Cumans at Mohi. All of Western Europe was open to the Mongols as no united Christian military force existed to oppose them on the battlefield. Western Christians were awe-struck by the Mongols' great numbers, their speed, and their cruelty; ....
Pope Innocent IV sent four separate embassies to preach and gather information in 1245. The two Franciscan and two Dominican missions all carried religious and diplomatic letters addressed to various Mongol leaders and military commanders. The papal letters asked Mongol intentions, told them to stop killing and slaughtering people (especially Christians), and urged them to accept baptism.
the Mongols believed that they had a divine right and mandate to rule the entire world. |
Originally posted by http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/rca/rca_200111_82_1_special.txt
in a tea house that the Badakhshani poet in our party recited an old Afghan verse - remembering the Mongol slaughter of seven hundred and eighty years ago, "No one has crossed the Taloqan pass. With corpses the earth is not replete. Come, let us go to the Master !! The dead are dust. Youth has not grown old." |
Originally posted by http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/historical/genghis-khan/
the Mongol Wars of the 13th century depopulated Asia by somewhere between 30 million and 60 million people. Hundreds of thousands of Chinese were said to have committed suicide in the face of approaching Mongol hordes. |
Originally posted by http://www.alinaam.org.za/library/tabligh-mongols.htm
The Mongols were, on the other hand, a wild and ferocious, yet vigorous and sturdy race who could have hardly been expected to submit to the spiritual and cultural superiority of a people so completely subdued by them, and who were also looked down and despised by them. |
Originally posted by http://baatar.freeyellow.com/chinggiskhaan.html
"If you do not pay homage, we will take your properity.
If you do not have properity, we will take your children.
If you do not have children, we will take your wife.
If you do not have wife, we will take your head."
Chinggis khaan's tax law. |
Originally posted by http://baatar.freeyellow.com/chinggiskhaan.html
Genghis Khan, the thirteen century emperor, was infamous for his bloodthirsty, ruthless campaigns, but he was also one of the great commanders of history. Though a master of terror - his casmpaigns in northern China and Iran were accompanied by a level of slaughter that was not seen again until the twentieth century
The Mongol Horde ... with their mighty Genghis Khan leading them they nearly ruled the earth! The incredible war machine that Genghis Khan built is difficult to imagine even by modern standards. Cities in his path were obliterated, rivers diverted, deserts crowded with the fleeing and dying. In the wake of the ruthless horde birds of prey were often the sole living creatures to inhabit the bloody, ravaged land. Such wholesale destruction can only be compared to modern nuclear warfare. /From Ghenghis Khan and the Mongol Horde, by Harold Lamb/ |
Originally posted by http://www.allempires.com/empires/mongol/mongol2.htm
On February 13, 1258, the city "Baghdad" surrendered and a devastating slaughtered ensued. The treasure was looted, the magnificent mosques were destroyed, and the populated was massacred. (An interesting thing is that all the Christian inhabitants in the city were spared.) Accounts claim a slaughter of 800,000 men. This may have been an exaggeration, as the city was later revitalized to an extent. |
Originally posted by http://www.allempires.com/empires/mongol/mongol2.htm
The Mongol (or Turkish-Mongol, actually) army was probably the most disciplined, well led, and effective fighting force ever until well into the age of gunpowder. Being "hunters all their lives," steppe nomads were masters of the horsemanship and were deadly with their composite bow. |
Originally posted by http://www.alinaam.org.za/library/rasul/mdebt.htm
How severe a blow the Mongol invasion dealt to all social and cultural progress can be gauged by a few graphic descriptions of Mongol rapine and slaughter, as given by Harold Lamb, Genghis Khans biographer:
"cities in his path were often obliterated, and rivers diverted from their courses; deserts were peopled with the fleeing and dying, and when he had passed, wolves and ravens often were the sole living things in once populated lands. |
Originally posted by http://outer-rim.lweb.net/mythos/25point.html
The slaughter the Mongols inflicted was legendary. Hundreds of thousands of men, women, children and animals were cut down without regard. |
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Attila2
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Posted: 13-Oct-2005 at 12:18 |
So Ataturk killed 878K ppl eh?
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Guests
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Posted: 13-Oct-2005 at 20:05 |
Originally posted by Aeolus
To say someone is the most cruel, it falls into the eye of the beholder. Certainly the original question implies merely a comparison of degrees of cruelty in different leaders but if the greatest harm to the greatest number defines the term "most cruel leader" then firstly Stalin, secondly Mao, and Hitler are all overly quallified.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
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Wow.... I am supprised that numbers are linked to a school site, well its a american school site, so i guess i can exspect that. Ok, first off the numbers of the soviet union are way to over exsaterated, even from american properganda numbers(sadly). 60 million?!!!!! OMG, that is so false. First off, they include the numbers from the secound world war, witch the soviet union lost around 9 million soldiers, and over 10 million civilians due too the nazies. Befor world war 2, Stalin was responicble for no more then 10 million deaths from 1930-1941. But you cant forget that the Czars followed similer polices as did the soviet union. Take for example St.Petersburg, that city was built on bones But you cant forget, with out stalins policy's, the soviet union would of failed to beat the nazies, thus germany wining world war two. After the war, the USSR's militery commitmint was over shadowed due too a small thing called the "Cold War".
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 02:34 |
Well exactly, we cannot attribute losses by enemy soldiers to a
government sponsored program of democide, the USSR could hardly be said
to be responsible for most of those lost in the war. I seriously can't
accept this source, it doesn't even take into account the likely 80
million deaths that occured in China during the "Great Leap Forward".
Even a conservative estimate outstrips the 35 million it cited. That
fact that an American school completely omits any mention of US, which
we know killed hundreds of millions of Vietnamese directly, makes this
source quite iffy.
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Alkiviades
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Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 03:10 |
Stalin hardly killed more than 6 million people and that's a very generous estimate. Hitler's actions resulted in the death of 60 million people, although he directly can be credited only with the victims of the Germans and not of the cobatants - that would make Hitler directly responsible for about 25 million deaths.
Chinghiz really cannot be charged with 60 million deaths - I'd say 20-25 million at best, considering the population density of Asia back then.
I voted for Chinghiz because the sheer size of the slaughter he ordered was so gross, that it makes the actions of the others pale in comparison.
One should though differiantate the various genocides (or democides) by nation and not only by ruler.
Anyway, where are Talat and Enver pasha in this list? They are responsible for 2 mi. deaths and the deportation of many more -and during modern times, not in some obscure middle ages - they deserve a place up there with the tops.
A few more genocides unnoticed: the oil genocide in Niger and the surrounding area (750K dead, 2 mi. deported during the 90s just so the oil companies can take control of their land and drill for oil) and the horrible Rwanda genocide (more than 1.4 mi. dead Tutsi) the "silent holocaust" of Guatemala (626 villages of various sizes completely razed and their inhabitants slaughtered to the last child).
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El Cid
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Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 20:50 |
From that selection of psichos and monsters, I think Hitler was the worst of all. How many lifes he sent to hell in his crazy dream of the perfect human benn? How many lifes he sent to hell defending Berlin stupidly?
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The spanish are coming!
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Loknar
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Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 03:16 |
Originally posted by Alkiviades
Stalin hardly killed more than 6 million people and that's a very generous estimate. Hitler's actions resulted in the death of 60 million people, although he directly can be credited only with the victims of the Germans and not of the cobatants - that would make Hitler directly responsible for about 25 million deaths.
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Let me guess....a Stalinist?
che-lives.com
How can Hitler be at fault with the great purge? Or industrialization? Or Collectivizaiton?
I know people who claim that Stalim murdered 60 million are full of crap. But I think somebody saying he mordered no more than 6 million is also full of it.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 01:29 |
A degree of brutality may have been necessary to industrialize at the
break-kneck need to prevent a Hitler who explicitly wanted lebensraum.
No, Hitler cannot be blamed with those deaths, but they are easier to
understand when facing the realities of a Politburo conference in 1933
and thinking a decade down the track.
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Loknar
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Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 13:39 |
Why was it necessary to disband the autonomous state of the Crimea and deport all of its population to Siberia?
In 1933 Germany was not the power it eventually became in 1939. Dont get me wrong, it was necessary to industrialize. But, selling crops for industrial equipment and allowing people to starve is brutal.
Aside from that, if Stalin was so worried about Germany how could he have been so damn stupid to purge most of the officer corps?
How many people died in his Gulags? How many people were killed in his purges?
It amazes me that there are so many apologists for this man. It is not quite as bad as being an apologist or Hitler, but it is close.
Was Stalin a great leader? Unquestionably he was.
I think 60 years is too soon for us to objectively analyze what happened in the 30s and 40s. We can analyze WW1 with out a problem I think, but not WW2 (the 30s and 40s included). I say this because it is obvious that even though we are armature historians and know much about the past, our own political philosophies interfere too much with more recent history.
Edited by Loknar
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aska_lankas
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Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 23:22 |
I think that hitler was more cruel than Genghis by far as hitler put lots of ppl in concentration camps and killed many more
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 23:37 |
Originally posted by Loknar
Why was it necessary to disband the autonomous state of the Crimea and deport all of its population to Siberia?
In 1933 Germany
was not the power it eventually became in 1939. Dont get me wrong, it
was necessary to industrialize. But, selling crops for industrial
equipment and allowing people to starve is brutal.
Aside from that, if Stalin was so worried about Germany how could he have been so damn stupid to purge most of the officer corps?
How many people died in his Gulags? How many people were killed in his purges?
It
amazes me that there are so many apologists for this man. It is not
quite as bad as being an apologist or Hitler, but it is close.
Was Stalin a great leader? Unquestionably he was.
I
think 60 years is too soon for us to objectively analyze what happened
in the 30s and 40s. We can analyze WW1 with out a problem I think, but
not WW2 (the 30s and 40s included). I say this because it is obvious
that even though we are armature historians and know much about the
past, our own political philosophies interfere too much with more
recent history. |
Much of his brutality was unnecessary, but much it was. Stalin had
clear indication's of Hitler's intentions before he even came to power.
I'm sure he had someone read Mein Kampf
and give him the gist of it. And now the bloke who wrote that book is
in charge of one of the potentially most powerful nations on Earth.
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