Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

King Arthur

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Praetorian View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 28-Nov-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 190
  Quote Praetorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: King Arthur
    Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 00:19

Who was King Arthur?

Were did he come from?

How was he king?

Is he real?

Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris
--If Caesar were alive, you'd be chained to an oar.

"game over!! man game over!!"
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 02:05
Originally posted by Praetorian

Who was King Arthur?

Some think that Arthur was actually a man named Ambrosius Aurelianus or a companion of his.  And some think he was a man named Arturus or Riothamus (I'm not sure if the last two are the same person or not), but the times of death of Riothamus and Arthur do not correspond.  Apparently there was a figure that defeated the Saxons that people later remembered as being a great leader.  So, there is still the question of who Arthur really was, to this day.  I'm sure I'm missing something and hopefully others will be able to add what I've left out.

Originally posted by Praetorian

Where did he come from?

He was thought to be born to Uther Pendragon ("
Uthr Bendragon") and Igraine of Cornwell ("Eigr daughter of Anlawdd Wledig"), in England.  The thought is that he was either Welsh, Breton or Celtic.

Originally posted by Praetorian

How was he King?

It is uncertain whether he was a king or not.  But if he was then it was most likely because of his father King Pendragon.  But of course this is all legend and myth.

Originally posted by Praetorian

Is he real?

I guess I kind of answered this in my first paragraph, it is uncertain, but there have been some archeologic findings that would suggest that a person of this description did exist and defeated the Saxons at the time Arthur is thought to have lived.  But whether his name was Arthur is disputable and whether he was a King is uncertain, as well.

I'm sure others will have more substantial information on this.  I've only been researching this for a few years and by no means feel that the information here is acurate or researched enough.  But as I stated before much is legend and myth, so how accurate can it really be at this point until new factual information is discovered?

Hope this helps.





Back to Top
Heraclius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1231
  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 12:56

 King Arthur seems to be a mix of myths and legends spanning centuries, everynow and then being reinvented to suit the times and serve a purpose.

 I'm sure somewhere there was a man who we can consider the true beginnings of Arthur but like most things its impossible to know for sure, centuries of myth and legend make it incredibly difficult to seperate fact from fiction.

  I think its better we dont know, so King Arthur can remain a legend and the magic isnt taken away, some questions are best left unanswered, i'm sure the real Arthur would not live up to the legend he has become and would serve only to ruin it.



Edited by Heraclius
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
Back to Top
Emperor Barbarossa View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Jul-2005
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 14:36
I think it is obvious that there was not real King Arthur. I believe it was just a myth made by Jeffrey of Monmoth. As Heraclius said, if there is a man whom King Arthur was based on, there is surely no way he would live up to the legend.

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2005 at 06:04

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

I think it is obvious that there was not real King Arthur. I believe it was just a myth made by Jeffrey of Monmoth. As Heraclius said, if there is a man whom King Arthur was based on, there is surely no way he would live up to the legend.

I think you need to be careful with your words; what you mean to say is 'I don't think there was an Arthur like Geoffrey of Monmouth described'. If that is what you're saying I would agree with you; Geoffrey was just a writer out for success, not for telling the truth.

However I do disagree with your doubt if there was a man on whom Arthur was based. You questioning if he could live up to the legend, always depends on what version of the legend you're referring to! His private life; we will probably never know. His greatness; we can only guess. But isn't that so with all history? You weren't there, you can only guess and pick your sources carefully.

Who was King Arthur?
Were did he come from?
How was he king?
Is he real?

I can answer all your questions at once; we don't know for sure we can only guess and make up theories. We do know there was someone named Arthur, who was important to Britain and who actually lived in the Dark Ages. This could be the Arthur the myths are based on, since he is mentioned with Medraut, who has been both his son and nephew.

Arthur and Medraut (Mordred to most) are mentioned in the Annales Cambriae, a work which you can comment on as much as you like (the years aren't all accurate and the writers are monks) but about which you can't deny one thing: all the events and names mentioned in the Annales Cambriae are mentioned in other works we are able to trust 100%. The years may be incorrect, but all the names in the Annales really excisted. Which means that Arthur and Medraut excisted as well. They are mentioned like this:

Year 93 (c. 540 AD) The strife of Camlann in which Arthur and Medraut fell, and there was death in Britain and in Ireland.

This prooves to many historians that the Arthurian Mythology is based on a real man; a man about whom we don't know anything for sure.

He is also mentioned in Ancient Welsh Poetry such as Y Goddoddin, and he is described as a very great warrior. And not just anyone was named in the Anales Cambriae; he must have been a warrior that did something different from all the others - something greater. What that is we'll never know.

I doubt that he was a Roman general; because the Romans left Britain too early for him to be living in the 6th century AD or somewhere near that. Yet on the other hand, it would be an explanation why the monks were so eager to mention him as a hero. But then again, Christianity has done a lot to make things sound prettier than they are.

He was a warrior; probably not a king. If he were the king he is described to have been in most literary works, he would be the Alexander the Great of Britain; and I don't think we would have forgotten facts about him that quickly if that were the case. But he was probably a good warrior and maybe even a leader.


The story of Uther and Igraine is but a guess and hasn't been proven in any possible way; in fact they've only been mentioned in literary works - unlike Arthur. We don't know where he came from. He was from the British Isles, but that pretty much sums up all we know about where he came from.

My answer to you is; Arthur was a real man who obviously won something or did something special. But Medieval writers and storytellers have a way of making things sound bigger than they are. The Arthur you can read of nowadays is but a shadow of oral tradition and lots of fact twisting. I, personally, still hope one day we'll know more about where Arthur's story came from.

Kind regards,
Nell Brent



Edited by Nell
Back to Top
Heraclius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1231
  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2005 at 08:27

 That conclusion is probably fairly accurate, I don't doubt there was A man who won a great battle or defeated some major threat to the Britons, but you have to ask yourself, how much of the mans greatness is true and how much is simply a story. There is no way the Arthur of legend could live upto the man whoever he was, it may well be that Arthur is a combination of many hereos and legends mixed into one, it certainly seems that way. Maybe there is not 1 source of the Arthur story in one man but is a mix of many.

 Anyway welcome to AE Nell



Edited by Heraclius
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
Back to Top
Kalevipoeg View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Estonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1458
  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2005 at 10:45
Many still seem to believe that king Arthur existed. I don't know if anyone has seen the show "My fat and totally obnoxious boss" where a dozen high educated business degree contesters fight for a place in a billion dollar company. They are taken to the bosses house where he shows his "rich  person stuff" and tells them, by pointing his finger at a tin sword, "and that is the real excalibur from king Arthurs court (the boss was making everything he said up on the go) and all of the HIGH EDUCATED  future elite, were like - mouths open and speechless. "His heart must be true and valiant if he can wield the excalibur", said two of the contesters and the others were just surprised that he posessed a weapon of such historical explicity.
There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
Back to Top
Degredado View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Portugal
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 366
  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2005 at 13:32
Whoever Arthur was, he wasn't riding around with Sarmatians.
Vou votar nas putas. Estou farto de votar nos filhos delas
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2005 at 13:57
Originally posted by Degredado

Whoever Arthur was, he wasn't riding around with Sarmatians.


Well, if the character is based in Roman general Lucious Artorius Castus, then he was indeed riding with 5,500 Sarmatians around the Hadrian Wall, as these were the main part of his "Roman" troops (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_basis_for_King_Arthu r).

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Gavriel View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 17-Jun-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 151
  Quote Gavriel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2005 at 16:51
Bit of a problem with Arturius Castus being Arthur,he died in the 2nd century,Arthur was living in the 5th century.
Arthur is allso in French folklore,i tend to believe he was a Briton who lived in the Britsh kingdoms in Gaul.But when those Kingdoms were over run by the Franks he came to Britain to defend her against the saxon invaders.


Edited by Gavriel
Back to Top
Heraclius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1231
  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2005 at 17:42

 Wernt the *British Kingdoms* in Gaul created after the Saxon invasion when the Britons fled to the south west of England, Wales and Scotland and over to France into what became Brittany?

A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
Back to Top
Perseas View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 14-Jan-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781
  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2005 at 17:52

There are about four sources which can be considered as historically reliable mentioning an historical Arthur.

1. Historia Brittonum

2. The Annales Cambriae  

3. The collection of heroic death-songs known as Y Gododdin and

4. Some random occurrences of the name Arthur in 6th and 7th-century contexts.

One of the most informative sites with a very good research about the historicity of king Arthur is this one..

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~tomgreen/arthur.htm

and another one about Arthurian legends.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/4186/Arthur/htmlpages/k ingarthurlegendpeople.html

A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
Back to Top
HistoryGuy View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 08-Sep-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 193
  Quote HistoryGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2005 at 19:32

This is a quite fascinating subject but yes he was real. These stories you hear are of the great Warrior named Arthur.

http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/arthur.html

هیچ مردی تا به حال به شما درباره خدا گفته.
Back to Top
Cywr View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6003
  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 11:55
Originally posted by Aeolus

There are about four sources which can be considered as historically reliable mentioning an historical Arthur.

1. Historia Brittonum

2. The Annales Cambriae  

3. The collection of heroic death-songs known as Y Gododdin and

4. Some random occurrences of the name Arthur in 6th and 7th-century contexts.

One of the most informative sites with a very good research about the historicity of king Arthur is this one..

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~tomgreen/arthur.htm

and another one about Arthurian legends.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/4186/Arthur/htmlpages/k ingarthurlegendpeople.html



What about Taliesin?
Arrrgh!!"
Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 22-Jan-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4221
  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 20:45
Originally posted by Praetorian

Who was King Arthur?

Were did he come from?

How was he king?

Is he real?

There seems to be enough archaeological evidence that there was a leader of the (Romanized?) Britons, perhaps named Artorius, who resisted the Saxon immigrations to Britain after the departure of Roman legions from the island.  It seems he was located in the north of modern England...Carlisle and Glastonbury.

In any case, it is a hell of a legend, and I prefer to think he existed. 

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2005 at 10:54
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

In any case, it is a hell of a legend, and I prefer to think he existed.


I am fascinated by this particular legend and I feel the same about preferring to think he existed.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.250 seconds.