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Alexander the Great

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    Posted: 18-Nov-2004 at 14:29

Originally posted by Yiannis

I think that yes, Greeks were ahead of the rest of the world at the time (but I might be a bit biased on that )

A good book to read "Babylon, Memphis, Persepolis, Eastern Contexts of Greek Culture" by Walter Burkert. Greeks borrowed heavily from Middle East in science, and mythology amongst others. Just s an example, the so called Pythagorean Theorem that Greeks brag so much about had been discovered in Middle East 1000 years before Pythagoras.

Originally posted by Yiannis

Aaaa, interesting point. But these two were essentialy different in the sense that the first, although not a Democracy, had the sence of civil liberties that are valued even today while the second one was an absolute monarchy where the Great King was "the Alpha and the Omega" and owed everything in his domain even the lives of his subjects. (please don't bring the example of Cleitus to dispute me, I'll give him the excuse that Alexander was drunk and that he later has shown great remorse :-)

Civil liberties? Are you familiar with Cyruss human right cylinder created a couple hundred years before Alexander was born? Even today many people dont have that level of liberties and are still trying to catch up. Persians believed in tolerance and respect for other cultures, and religions. Alexander torched any thing relating to ideas he did not believe in. 

Originally posted by Yiannis

I'm sure there're many more, but these are the ones I can think of right now...

Try genocide at Tyre amongst many others. Before Genghis Khan he had the record for being the most brutal in after battle genocide with Greeks being one of his first victims. Alexander was nothing for the Greeks to be proud of , that is if he was Greek

Originally posted by Yiannis

I personally think that Christianity (and religion in general) is an insult on the face of humanit

At this rate you will eventually hate many things "Greek". Looks like as soon you discover that something did not actually had "Western/Greek" origin you will start not to like it. The list is going to be pretty long, trust me

 



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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2004 at 06:09

I'm aware of the loans that Greeks and Egyptians had from Mesopotamia and between them. For example look at the "Kouros" and "Kore" type of statues. Their origin is disntingtly Egyptian. Imobile, rough figures always with the hands glued to the side and one foot projecting infrond of the other. That was the Egyptian style for milleniums and was brought over to Greece as well. Look at waht has happened to this style within less than a hundered years after it was introduced to Greece. It evolved to one of the best schools of sculpture that ever existed!

Mathematics were also introduced from Mesopotamia and geometry from Egypt where it was usefull to calculate the fields. Look how it evolved by the Greek mathematicians to calculate the perimeter of the Earth almost exactly, the movements of the planets, the distance  between earth and moon etc...

It's no accident that Physics, Biology, Mathematics, Geometry etc are Greek words. It's not because the Greeks have invented them, far from it, it's because they have evolved them almost to modern day standards and they have set the basis on which modern scientific research is based upon.

No, I'm not overlooking other civilization's achievement. I'm just proud about ours (plus I'm not very familiar with other countries achievements so I can't speak of them that often)

 

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  Quote Romano Nero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 07:21

akis, why are you so rough on Alexander? Aren't 2500 years enough to forget and forgive? I mean, Yiannis has forgiven the Turks who massacred his fellow countrymen even 50 years ago (the Istanbul, Imbros and Tenedos massacres, if you are wondering) why can't you forgive something that happened 2500 years ago?

Alexander was a conqueror and as such had his bad moments. Tyre was one of those,Persepolis was another and several less known incidents in the depths of Asia are more. But he didn't perform genocide, nor was he intolerant or anything close. Had he lived on, we might've seen the first real mixture of the Greek and Persian cultures, and the first mighty fusion between the East and the West (he believed in that, even his own countrymen despised him for this) not to mention the greatest empire ever. Probably, history would be quite different.

If you are looking for genocidal conquerors, Alexandros is a wrong choice. Even the Persian performed many, many more genocides (eradicating whole cities with their population) than Alexander. And they did so much later (the mass slaughter of Christians in Kappadokia and Syria in the times just before Heraclius?). Why are you so obsessed with what Alexandros did? You thing it's that unique? Or is it just plain-old silly nationalism?

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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2004 at 16:07

Originally posted by Yiannis

It's no accident that Physics, Biology, Mathematics, Geometry etc are Greek words.



These are not universal words people in different part of world use different words to refer to these. These words are used in English and a few other European languages. Today it is more chic to be European than it is to be middle eastern but in reality Greeks were part of and at the western edge of the grater civilization that emerged toward the end of bronze age in the middle east. Greeks later on functioned as the conduit taking the know how of the old world to the western Europeans which later on got ahead of middle Easterns and Mediterraneans. 



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 00:29
Originally posted by Romano Nero

akis, why are you so rough on Alexander? Aren't 2500 years enough to forget and forgive? I mean, Yiannis has forgiven the Turks who massacred his fellow countrymen even 50 years ago (the Istanbul, Imbros and Tenedos massacres, if you are wondering) why can't you forgive something that happened 2500 years ago?

Alexander was a conqueror and as such had his bad moments. Tyre was one of those,Persepolis was another and several less known incidents in the depths of Asia are more. But he didn't perform genocide, nor was he intolerant or anything close. Had he lived on, we might've seen the first real mixture of the Greek and Persian cultures, and the first mighty fusion between the East and the West (he believed in that, even his own countrymen despised him for this) not to mention the greatest empire ever. Probably, history would be quite different.

If you are looking for genocidal conquerors, Alexandros is a wrong choice. Even the Persian performed many, many more genocides (eradicating whole cities with their population) than Alexander. And they did so much later (the mass slaughter of Christians in Kappadokia and Syria in the times just before Heraclius?). Why are you so obsessed with what Alexandros did? You thing it's that unique? Or is it just plain-old silly nationalism?





I think you are missing the point of this tread, and you are making assumptions about my ethnicity. Not everyone questioning Alexander is one of the other guys. The tread started with someone saying Alexander was nothing more than a military conqueror. Yannis responded to that and I am responding to what Yannis said, and I still dont see any reason for why any of my statements maybe incorrect. This has nothing to do forgiveness the people that need to forgive be forgiven have died 2300 years ago they can settle that in the after life. It is very normal for us to like to think that sameone that we think was our ancestor was a wonderful person but that does not mean that we have to hide or twist the facts.

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  Quote BattleGlory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2004 at 16:02

Alexander's empire would've collapsed from a rebellion by the Greek and Macedonian countrymen who were brought up on Arostotle's credo of Greek supremacy

Nah, there were a whole lot more Asians than Greeks.  The Greeks had become pretty insignificant, comparatively, in the empire by the time of his death.

Just s an example, the so called Pythagorean Theorem that Greeks brag so much about had been discovered in Middle East 1000 years before Pythagoras.

You do realize that the theorem is named after the Pythagoreans because they were the first to prove the theorem, not discover it, don't you?

Persians believed in tolerance and respect for other cultures, and religions. Alexander torched any thing relating to ideas he did not believe in.

Which is why Xerxes burned down all of the temples in Athens   .  You do misjudge Alexander though.  He had a tendency of ultimately destroying those who resisted him and betrayed him, not that with which he didn't agree.  Persepolis was an odd example, and I can't give any good reason why he burned the city to the ground (unless the story of his drunkenness is true, which it doesn't seem to be).

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 02:20

Originally posted by BattleGlory

Nah, there were a whole lot more Asians than Greeks.  The Greeks had become pretty insignificant, comparatively, in the empire by the time of his death.

No, it's not the numbers that make the difference! There were Asians serving in the army but they always had Greek commanders. Even the local satraps that were appointed to post by Alexander were soon replaced. This happened in Egypt, in the Seleucid empire and also in the Greco-Bactrian kingdoms (that lasted far less than the others).

But it's true that the flow of immigrants from Greece to Asia did not have a significant effect in population terms, the collonists simply dissapeared in the vastness of Asia and at the same time this caused serious problems in Greece proper.

However the cultural effects lasted much longer!

 

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  Quote BattleGlory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 15:41

No, it's not the numbers that make the difference! There were Asians serving in the army but they always had Greek commanders.

Touche.  They could always be replaced by Asians, though, in a tight spot.

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 12:25

I came across this discussion looking for an answer to a question, so I might as well ask it here. It looks as though there'd be people with views....

The question: Yes, Alexander made effective use of cavalry in winning his battles. That seems evident. However, what in rather more detail, was the way in which he used cavalry? I.e. what tactics did he use (I don't mean the 'hammer and anvil' stuff - take that as 'metatactics' or strategy)?

How were they equipped? I've seen suggestions that they carried throwing spears and javelins, with some only carrying sword and shield to fight when dismounted. Did they charge as lancers or hussars would? Did they fight horse-to-horse, or just against infantry? (If they attacked organised infantry at all.)

And how did thy do that without stirrups? I note that someone's signature here includes a picture of Alexander on horseback that, correctly, shows no stirrups.

Thanks to anyone who comes up with answers.

 

 

 

 

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  Quote Romano Nero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 15:26

Good questions... here are some answers.

First of all, Alexandros deployed three types of cavalry (actually it was more than four, but the rest fall under these categories as well).

- Heavy cavalry (hetairoi and some Thessalian segments)

- Medium cavalry (southern Greeks and some Thessalian, Prodromoi cavalry)

- Light cavalry (Paeonian scouts, some southern Greeks, some other allied cavalry)

The equipment was different for every type, except on thing: none of them had stirrups (those were invented a few centuries after Alex's times).

Hetairoi cavalry wore thorax (linen with metal stripes attached, or even full metal - but that was more seldom), helm and carried in battle the renowned xyston spear (about 3 m. long) and as secondary weapon a sword called kopis or cavalry kopis (appearently there was also a infantry version). The tactical use of the hetairoi cavalry and the heavy thessalian cavalry was similar: they would fight anything, anywhere, they would even charge against organized infantry (of the Persian types, of course - charging against hoplite phalanx head on was not expected nor carried out by those marvelous cavalrymen). There is quite a controversy as to how effective they could be without stirrups, couched lance and couched saddle, when charging (like lancers). Well, the accounts we have suggest they have been used as the first actual shock cavalry in history.

The question remains though, how could they deploy shock tactics (charging en masse against cavalry and infantry irregardles) without the gear mentioned? We really don't know. But Alexander's cavalry was not the only one that used similar tactics before the invention of stirrups and couched saddle.

 

The Thessalian had similar equipment, but lesser cuirasses and might not've carried the kopis sword.

The southern Greeks used varied type of equipment, depending on where they came from.

The Prodromoi did not wear any kind of armor, but carried the cavalry sarissa, a shorter version of the famed extra long (up to 6 meters) pike. The cavalry version could be even four meters long.

The Paeonian and the other light cavalry were equipped with javelins and maybe a short sword and a buckler.

No other cavalry typed deployed by Alex carried any shield.


That's all I can tell you without resorting to my library.

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 17:09

Thanks Romano for the quick response. That's the kind of information i was looking for.

Out of period, but I ran across this picture of "Union cavalry in action at Gettysburg".  

http://www.battlefieldanomalies.com/us_cavalry/images/01_image002.jpg

I wondered somewhat how  far Alexander might have used 'cavalry' the way both sides did in the Civil War, as highly mobile infantry or as mounted javelin and spear throwers like mounted archers or carabinieri.

 

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  Quote BattleGlory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 19:44

Very good, Romano.  Just a few touchy points though.  The Thessalian cavalry were probably better troops than the Hetairoi, overall.  They developed a hexagon formation to ride in that proved to be extremely effective, though difficult to deploy.  The Thessalians had it perfected and employed it well.  The Hetairoi tended to fight in a wedge.

Fighting without stirrups was extremely difficult.  It was likely that a cavalryman would get unhorsed at some point if he joined the general melee.  Generally, the cavalrymen had to hold onto the horse with both thighs and maybe one hand.  You would not hold on with your calves.  This was because if you didn't just leave the lower portion of your leg dangling then it would likely get broken or cut more easily if you bumped into something or someone hit you.  The Paeonians developed someway of better holding onto the horse with their legs so that they could free up both hands for fighting with their spear.  This was abnormal when compared to the normal one handed, overthrust of other cavalrymen.  It gave them much more power with which to strike.

The Prodromoi were not armed with sarissas.  The sarissaphoroi were, though they were probably considered a subdivison of the prodromoi, can't remember off the top of my head.  The sarissaphoroi seemed to have been a pet division of Alexander's, and their usefulness is debated.  Alexander is often depicted in the dress of a sarissaphoroi, e.g. the famous mosaic of Gaugemela, and it's thought that the sarissaphoroi were considered very dashing to be in, and it was popular to be depicted that way in paintings, much like many people used to like to be portrayed in hussar dress in paintings even though they obviously weren't hussars.

Any other questions and I'll be glad to get back to you .

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  Quote Hellinas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2005 at 15:33

Romano Nero

Good post with a lot of details. But you forgot to mention the Thracians

"none of them had stirrups (those were invented a few centuries after Alex's times). "

We do find reins mentiond in texts before Alexander was even born.

We know the word "hippodesma" that means "reins". The word for stirrups was "anaboleus" even though we do find it as you say in a later time than Alexander's we do see the verb "anaballo" used for horse mounting before him. What troubles me is how is it possible, when we know that they had chariot's as far back as Homer's Iliad, later we find chariot races as an Olympic event. So we can see that they were very well accustomed to horses if not had mastered the "art" of horse riding/races. Yet according to all sources stirrups were invented a long time after the event mentioned. Am I the only one that see's this as something that needs further research?

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  Quote Qnzkid711 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2005 at 21:44
Originally posted by Dari

Originally posted by BattleGlory

I can only guess that you mean why did he turn back after conquering only part of India.  For one thing, he didn't turn back in the middle of a battle.  His men refused to go any further and none of his exhortions had any effect on them at all.  He was thus required to turn back to his empire.

No...

And that's not what I was talking about. Alexander was only a great conqueror, nothing more. He is no great man, in anything else. He slaughtered thousands upon thousands of people. Ransacked many parts of India that he managed to invade and devesated the Iranian peoples with his attacks on their culture and religion.




So.........

We look at all the other ancient historical figures in history who slaughtered armies and villages
Julius Caesar, Ghenghis Khan etc....

and admire them. What changes here?   

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  Quote Qnzkid711 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2005 at 21:46
 They asked for it at Tyre for giving him such a hard time. He just wanted to freaking pray. What about the Romans who slaughtered the magnificent city of Carthage because of their fears of it and some nut ending each of his speeches with "It is my opinion that Carthage should be destroyed". 700k people lost their lives 50k were sold to slavery.     
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 03:27

Originally posted by Qnzkid711

 They asked for it at Tyre for giving him such a hard time. He just wanted to freaking pray. 

Him "just wanting to pray" was a pretext for submission. The temple he requested to sacrifice was the one that only Tyrian kings were allowed to. The Tyrians, by allowing him to sacrifice there, would effectively recognize Alexander as their master. It's all politics

But the Tyrians also committed sacrilege, when they slaughtered Greek prisoners and thrown their bodies over the city walls and into the sea. There wasn't any greatest sacrilege in the eyes of the Greeks, because they believed that if the body was not properly burned or buried, it would never find rest in the underworld (killing of prisoners wasn't so important as much as the refusal of burial). After that they really wanted revenge.

 

 

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  Quote JasSum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2005 at 08:44
Hmm, i see some here say that Aleksandar is greek.
Ich been berliner .. (or msth like that) said Kenedy. So is he German???

Get over it people. He is son of Philip, the barbarian as hellens used to call him. And why? Because he was not hellen as they were.

Dont someone dare to say that they called him so because his civilisation was not like theirs. What civilisation had sparta? They were savages in the eyes of athens. But they were all dorians. Same blood.

Philip was not like them. Even Homer say that Macedonians were tall, with brown hair, white faces. Those that attacked Troy were dark, with black hair, black eyes, short people.

So, they are different. A lot different.
Aleksandar was Macedonian just like I am. Stop calling him greek, something that neather he neather his father liked very much.
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2005 at 09:05

so you are related to ancient Macadonia? not the modern Macadonia?

because  as far as i know they are not the same people

 

 

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2005 at 10:41

Here we go again...

Well we know for sure that he spoke Greek, that the cities he built had (some still have) Greek names and greeks living in them, that he spread Greek culture as far as India (see Budhas in Greek chitons), that his name (same as his father, mother, friends and all the ancient Macedonians that we know of) were Greek. We also know that the vast majority of the historical borders of the Macedonian kingdom were within, today's Greek Macedonia. Further north were conquered lands such as Paeonia etc...

We also know for sure that Alexander wasn't speaking Slavic like you do, or called Aleksandr...

In any case, the discussion if the ancient Macedonians were Greek or not is ongoing on scholarly level and there're serious well-versed arguments on both sides. But there is no discussion on whether they were Hellenized at some point in history (even scholars who support the idea of ancient macedonians being different in origin than Greeks, agree thet they became Hellenized) or of you being related to the ancient Macedonians.

PS: The Athenians were Ionians, not Dorians as the Spartans.



Edited by Yiannis
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 04:13

Originally posted by JasSum

First, about how old the slavic language is ... thats another topic, and its older than those tribes that arived from africa and camed to the southern parts of balkan. .

I won't reply to that, I'll judge you to be innocent due to complete and utter ignorance on the matter. However, I'd like to let you know that your efforts to provoke arent effective on me.

Originally posted by JasSum

Athenians called Aleksandar child of zeus, but in Egypt he was child of Ra. So he is egyptian?? .

Zeus and Ra are one and the same thing in Greek mind. The Greeks always made parallelisms between their gods and those of other nations, especially with the Egyptians with whom they had connections for a long time. That is why Alexander went to pay his respects to Ammon. There're temples of Ammon Ra in Greece. In any case, you could have the argument that even if Macedonians and Greeks worshiped the same gods, they were still not related etc...

Originally posted by JasSum

The days of greek propaganda are over. Even USA recognized that we are THE Macedonia. (china and russia did that long time ago) .
The US did not say that the Ancient Macedonians are related to today's Slavomacedonians. They said that they recognize this country with the name of Macedonia. That was irrelevant in a history forum.... Even your President, Kiro Gligorof (sp?) said that you have no connection to the ancient Macedonians and that "we're Slavs who came here in the 6th century AD". You voted for him, you better listen to what he said...


Originally posted by JasSum

 So telling me that YOU know for sure that Aleksandar spoked greek ... .
From all ancient sources available to us. Except if you mean from where do we know which was his primary language.

Originally posted by JasSum

 P.P.S. I am not so eager as sharrukin
  Nor will you ever be that competent!



Edited by Yiannis
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