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Topic ClosedATATURK!!!
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Pretorian
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Posts: 186 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: ATATURK!!!
    Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 11:00

pwaar! that is unblevable, cant say it doesnt make sense either.

we all know for a fact that ataturk wasnt perfect and did not consider his religion (if he was a muslim, i doubt it) when he did his reforms.

he definately didnt want the state to have anything to do with islam which guided the turks through many glorius moments in history. changing the state from an islamic to secular couldnt have happend other then forceable ways. which can unfortunately mean death sentences for some who disagreed.

Either your a slave to what MADE-MAN
Or your a slave to what MAN-MADE
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 11:26
ISLAMIC EMPIRE,

Thanks for the link. I am having fun now.

I wonder what will you say about this, I am copying from your link.

Some confusion as to his identity persisted, however, for some years to come.

Inspecting some soldiers in Anatolia, Kemal once asked,

Who is God and where does He live?     

The soldier, anxious to please, replied,

God is Mustafa Kemal Pasha. He lives in Angora.

And where is Angora? Kemal asked.     

Angora is in Istanbul, was the reply.     

Farther down the line he asked another soldier,

Who is Mustafa Kemal?     

The reply was,

Our Sultan.

How ridiculous is this? Some people can be unbelievably ignorant.

They can't be cured...

Edited by Barış
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 11:33
Forgive me, I'm filling this forum with nonsense, but you should read this.

It might give you few ideas about the haters of Atatrk.

When one politician gave him some harmless advice, he roughly told him to get out. When a venerable member of the Cabinet suggested that it was unseemly for Turkish ladies to dance in public, he threw a Koran at him and chased him out of his office with a stick.

Edited by Barış
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Posts: 8595 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 11:52

I think the whole notion of secularism freaks out the very religious folks. Certain individuals cannot understand the value of unbridled practices in religion. They want a leader who must direct them to proper funtioning. Perhaps they lack the leadership that is within each one of them. I think this conservative thinking started with the practice of Sunnat al-Muhammad (Instead of sunnat of Allah).

A moslem ummah (cemiyat) can happen just by practicing with eachother. Who says we need to have religious laws dictated to us as the leaders seem fit? We all should be aware of religious duties ourselves. If we don't then we could ask. I personally do not want someone telling me how to believe or practice my religion.

God will judge believers as towards their beliefs and behaviors. Not Ataturk or mullahs (even though the latter often tries be a judge).

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Pretorian
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Posts: 186 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 20:29

baris you say that the last sultan was a traitor to the nation without no proof. Ataturk understandably said this to his people to get in power and to get there support. this was those days. BUT TODAY IT IS PROOVEN THAT SULTAN VAHDETTIN ACTUALLY SACRIFICED HIMSELF FOR HIS PEOPLE.

ok, ataturk was an intelligent person, but even today are we going to take his word for things even if its against historical facts?

The former turkish prime minister bulent ecevit also admitted that the last sultan wasnt a traitor to the nation, but the opposite. its been published in news papers. heres a link but not the whole article since the original is in turkish.

http://zaman.com/include/yorumla.php?bl=politics&alt=&am p;trh=20050724&hn=21847

it is called Historians Back Ecevit: Vahdettin was not a Traitor

Historians have backed former Turkish Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit's statement, "Sultan Vahdettin was not a traitor but clearly supported the Turkish Independence War."

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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 00:40
yes Sultan Vahdettin was betrayed i remember reading a book on this, its a pretty long story.
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Pretorian
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Posts: 186 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 01:14

i know a book called Sultan Vahiduddin (turkish) vatan haini degil, buyuk vatan dostu which means Not a traitor of his nation, A great friend of his nation.

written by Necip Fazil KISAKUREK, who was really put under alot of pressure just becoz of his opinion which he prooves in his book. i think he even went in prison for it.
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 01:27
ignorance comes from those people that fall in love with worldy heros
life it seems will fade away
drifting farther every day
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simply nothing more to give
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 01:34
and then they even create statues about them all over their country as if it something to thank or in some ways worship. Because of these statues of Ataturk i wouldnt be surprised if the country turns out like pre-islamic history. Statues of things to worship and thank.   
life it seems will fade away
drifting farther every day
all i gotta do is pray
nothing matters, no-one else
simply nothing more to give
there is nothing more for me
i need the end to set me free
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Pretorian
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Posts: 186 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 01:57

Originally posted by ISLAMIC EMPIRE

i wouldnt be surprised if the country turns out like pre-islamic history. Statues of things to worship and thank.   

 it was worser in the 1960-70 peroid. there was an old turkish film staring Kadir Inanir where he gets into deep trouble and looks at the statue of ataturk and says "atam bana yardim et","father help me" . how stupid is that, ask help from God insted.

now days this is changing though to the better. practising muslims are in the increase in turkey. so i doubt that what ur saying will happen LOL.
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 02:19
thats good hehe as long as heroes dont turn into idols
life it seems will fade away
drifting farther every day
all i gotta do is pray
nothing matters, no-one else
simply nothing more to give
there is nothing more for me
i need the end to set me free
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Posts: 1426 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 02:27
I like Tatar Ramazan of Kadir Inanir.He played his heart out in that movie.
"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"
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Posts: 1426 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 02:30
you 2 aussies know each other?
"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"
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Posts: 781 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 03:01

Originally posted by ISLAMIC EMPIRE

thats good hehe as long as heroes dont turn into idols

Totally agree. I think this is the very source for lots of disputes in Turkish society. Hope Turkish people think him just as a Hero, who should be respected for his deeds for this nation, but not a person flawless as a politician.

Either make a history or become a history.
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Posts: 186 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 03:04

I like Tatar Ramazan of Kadir Inanir.He played his heart out in that movie.

got to admit though it is pretty good.  one of the few good turkish movies that come out.

you 2 aussies know each other?

i would rather be jugded from my history thanks, im a turkish muslim that happens to live in australia. im sure ISLAMIC EMPIRE thinks the same.

to answer ur question we onli no each other as far as AE communications go, thats all. but we do PM each other to get info about where his from and that. we live in 2 differnt states.
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 03:08
Originally posted by barbar

Originally posted by ISLAMIC EMPIRE

thats good hehe as long as heroes dont turn into idols

Totally agree. I think this is the very source for lots of disputes in Turkish society. Hope Turkish people think him just as a Hero, who should be respected for his deeds for this nation, but not a person flawless as a politician.

yea there shoudlnt be a single statue in turkey. As statues are haram and Allah will ask the person who wanted his statue and or the person who made it to bring it to life and you know the deal. And Allah knows best.
life it seems will fade away
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nothing matters, no-one else
simply nothing more to give
there is nothing more for me
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Posts: 3711 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 05:13

islamic so why Hz mer didnt destroyed status at egypt? do you have more knowledge than him?

 

 
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 05:41

here is the statues disallowance in islam :

QURAN

What, do they (the mushrikeen) take gods (made) of earth, which they carry about. (Surah Ambiyaah Aayat 21).

Narrated `Abdullah bin Mas`ud (Radiyallahu anhu):  The Prophet entered Makkah and (at that time) there were three hundred-and-sixty idols around the Ka`ba. He started stabbing the idols with a stick he had in his hand and reciting: "Truth (Islam) has come and Falsehood (disbelief) has vanished." (Bukhari 3.658)

Here is your claim:

Some have claimed that when Hazrat Umar (Radiyallahu anhu) conquered Egypt, he allowed statues to remain. Hence they are standing till this day, e.g. the sphinx or the thousands of artifacts on view at the Egyptian National Museum.  This indicates that we should not interfere with such statues.

Heres the answer:

The fact that these statues are standing today does not imply that Hazrat Umar (Radiyallahu anhu) allowed statues to remain.

Almost all the statues found today in Egypt were unearthed in the last century. Hazrat Umar (Radiyallahu anhu) conquered Egypt in 20 AH. At that time these statues were unknown of, both out of sight and out of mind. Thus it cannot be claimed that Hazrat Umar (Radiyallahu anhu) condoned the display of statues.

The only statue that may have been in public display would have been the sphinx. But it would have been impractical to destroy such a huge mass of rock. Consider the size of the sphinx. It is about 20 m (66 ft) high and about 73 m (240 ft) long.

At that time there were no modern implements, hence it would have been impractical to remove this rock by mere pick and shovel. The impracticality can be gauged from the fact that French canons could not demolish the sphinx, but only managed to cause some damage.

Furthermore, consider the hard facts. Hazrat Umar (Radiyallahu anhu) strictly enforced the rule of not allowing non-Muslims to display their religious symbols in public. He refused the Christians permission to display the Cross within the city, even if only once a year.

Would he then condone the public display of statues?

The assumption that he allowed statues to stand is in conflict with his general position, a position attested to by many historical facts. Thus the assumption must be dismissed as baseless.

Bear in mind that we have only discussed his attitude towards the Cross. The cross is a religious symbol, and not an idol or image. Yet since it is a salient feature of the Christians, they were not allowed to publicly display it in Daarul Islam. All publicly displayed crosses were to be demolished, as has been established from the decree of Hazrat Umar bin Abdul Aziz (rahimahullah).

When this is the position of symbol, then to a far greater degree should this apply to statues which are intended to be images of and represent false gods, and which have become objects of worship within themselves.

Thus, to a far greater degree should their display be outlawed. Is it within reasoning to claim that Hazrat Umar (Radiyallahu anhu) would forbid the display of the Cross but condone the display of idols? The stupidity of such a claim is self-evident.

 
life it seems will fade away
drifting farther every day
all i gotta do is pray
nothing matters, no-one else
simply nothing more to give
there is nothing more for me
i need the end to set me free
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 09:08
Originally posted by ISLAMIC EMPIRE

yea there shoudlnt be a single statue in turkey. As statues are haram and Allah will ask the person who wanted his statue and or the person who made it to bring it to life and you know the deal. And Allah knows best.

I take it, you are having difficulties in understanding.

Turkish state does not recognize "haram".

It's a secular state! How many times must I repeat myself?
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Posts: 1494 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 09:26

Originally posted by Islamic Empire

]

yea there shoudlnt be a single statue in turkey. As statues are haram and Allah will ask the person who wanted his statue and or the person who made it to bring it to life and you know the deal. And Allah knows best.

There shouldn't be a single peson like you in Turkey who wants to ban a form of art...
[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">
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