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ATATURK!!!
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oTToMAn_TurK 
Pretorian 
Joined: 19-Sep-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 186 |
 Topic: ATATURK!!!Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 03:04 |
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I like Tatar Ramazan of Kadir Inanir.He played his heart out in that movie. got to admit though it is pretty good. you 2 aussies know each other? i would rather be jugded from my history thanks, im a turkish muslim that happens to live in australia. im sure ISLAMIC EMPIRE thinks the same. to answer ur question we onli no each other as far as AE communications go, thats all. but we do PM each other to get info about where his from and that. we live in 2 differnt states. |
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Either your a slave to what MADE-MAN
Or your a slave to what MAN-MADE |
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barbar
General 
retired AE Moderator Joined: 10-Aug-2005 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 781 |
Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 03:01 |
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Totally agree. I think this is the very source for lots of disputes in Turkish society. Hope Turkish people think him just as a Hero, who should be respected for his deeds for this nation, but not a person flawless as a politician. |
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Either make a history or become a history.
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erci
Chieftain 
Joined: 22-Jun-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1426 |
Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 02:30 |
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you 2 aussies know each other?
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"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"
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erci
Chieftain
Joined: 22-Jun-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1426 |
Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 02:27 |
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I like Tatar Ramazan of Kadir Inanir.He played his heart out in that movie.
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"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"
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ISLAMIC EMPIRE
Janissary 
Joined: 06-Oct-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 02:19 |
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thats good hehe as long as heroes dont turn into idols
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life it seems will fade away
drifting farther every day all i gotta do is pray nothing matters, no-one else simply nothing more to give there is nothing more for me i need the end to set me free |
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oTToMAn_TurK
Pretorian
Joined: 19-Sep-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 186 |
Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 01:57 |
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now days this is changing though to the better. practising muslims are in the increase in turkey. so i doubt that what ur saying will happen LOL. |
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Either your a slave to what MADE-MAN
Or your a slave to what MAN-MADE |
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ISLAMIC EMPIRE
Janissary
Joined: 06-Oct-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 01:34 |
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and then they even create statues about them all over their country as if it something to thank or in some ways worship. Because of these statues of Ataturk i wouldnt be surprised if the country turns out like pre-islamic history. Statues of things to worship and thank.
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life it seems will fade away
drifting farther every day all i gotta do is pray nothing matters, no-one else simply nothing more to give there is nothing more for me i need the end to set me free |
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ISLAMIC EMPIRE
Janissary
Joined: 06-Oct-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 01:27 |
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ignorance comes from those people that fall in love with worldy heros
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life it seems will fade away
drifting farther every day all i gotta do is pray nothing matters, no-one else simply nothing more to give there is nothing more for me i need the end to set me free |
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oTToMAn_TurK
Pretorian
Joined: 19-Sep-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 186 |
Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 01:14 |
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i know a book called Sultan Vahiduddin (turkish) vatan haini degil, buyuk vatan dostu which means Not a traitor of his nation, A great friend of his nation. written by Necip Fazil KISAKUREK, who was really put under alot of pressure just becoz of his opinion which he prooves in his book. i think he even went in prison for it. |
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Either your a slave to what MADE-MAN
Or your a slave to what MAN-MADE |
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ISLAMIC EMPIRE
Janissary
Joined: 06-Oct-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 00:40 |
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yes Sultan Vahdettin was betrayed i remember reading a book on this, its a pretty long story.
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life it seems will fade away
drifting farther every day all i gotta do is pray nothing matters, no-one else simply nothing more to give there is nothing more for me i need the end to set me free |
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oTToMAn_TurK
Pretorian
Joined: 19-Sep-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 186 |
Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 20:29 |
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baris you say that the last sultan was a traitor to the nation without no proof. Ataturk understandably said this to his people to get in power and to get there support. this was those days. BUT TODAY IT IS PROOVEN THAT SULTAN VAHDETTIN ACTUALLY SACRIFICED HIMSELF FOR HIS PEOPLE. ok, ataturk was an intelligent person, but even today are we going to take his word for things even if its against historical facts? The former turkish prime minister bulent ecevit also admitted that the last sultan wasnt a traitor to the nation, but the opposite. its been published in news papers. heres a link but not the whole article since the original is in turkish. http://zaman.com/include/yorumla.php?bl=politics&alt=&am p;trh=20050724&hn=21847it is called Historians Back Ecevit: Vahdettin was not a Traitor Historians have backed former Turkish Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit's statement, "Sultan Vahdettin was not a traitor but clearly supported the Turkish Independence War." |
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Either your a slave to what MADE-MAN
Or your a slave to what MAN-MADE |
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Seko
Emperor 
Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 11:52 |
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I think the whole notion of secularism freaks out the very religious folks. Certain individuals cannot understand the value of unbridled practices in religion. They want a leader who must direct them to proper funtioning. Perhaps they lack the leadership that is within each one of them. I think this conservative thinking started with the practice of Sunnat al-Muhammad (Instead of sunnat of Allah). A moslem ummah (cemiyat) can happen just by practicing with eachother. Who says we need to have religious laws dictated to us as the leaders seem fit? We all should be aware of religious duties ourselves. If we don't then we could ask. I personally do not want someone telling me how to believe or practice my religion. God will judge believers as towards their beliefs and behaviors. Not Ataturk or mullahs (even though the latter often tries be a judge). |
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Guests
Guest 
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Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 11:33 |
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Forgive me, I'm filling this forum with nonsense, but you should read this.
It might give you few ideas about the haters of Atatrk. When one politician gave him some harmless advice, he roughly told him to get out. When a venerable member of the Cabinet suggested that it was unseemly for Turkish ladies to dance in public, he threw a Koran at him and chased him out of his office with a stick. Edited by Barış |
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 11:26 |
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ISLAMIC EMPIRE,
Thanks for the link. I am having fun now. 
I wonder what will you say about this, I am copying from your link. Some confusion as to his identity persisted, however, for some years to come. Inspecting some soldiers in Anatolia, Kemal once asked, Who is God and where does He live? The soldier, anxious to please, replied, God is Mustafa Kemal Pasha. He lives in Angora. And where is Angora? Kemal asked. Angora is in Istanbul, was the reply. Farther down the line he asked another soldier, Who is Mustafa Kemal? The reply was, Our Sultan. How ridiculous is this? Some people can be unbelievably ignorant. They can't be cured... Edited by Barış |
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oTToMAn_TurK
Pretorian
Joined: 19-Sep-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 186 |
Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 11:00 |
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pwaar! that is unblevable, cant say it doesnt make sense either. we all know for a fact that ataturk wasnt perfect and did not consider his religion (if he was a muslim, i doubt it) when he did his reforms. he definately didnt want the state to have anything to do with islam which guided the turks through many glorius moments in history. changing the state from an islamic to secular couldnt have happend other then forceable ways. which can unfortunately mean death sentences for some who disagreed. |
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Either your a slave to what MADE-MAN
Or your a slave to what MAN-MADE |
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 10:59 |
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The sultanete which was cooperating with the enemy? Any Turk, die-hard religious or an atheist, will appreciate Atatrk for that.
Ah, they may not be traitors, but their forefathers definetely were. Anyway you are misinformed, any descendant of the Ottoman Dynasty can return to Turkey whenever he wishes. In those countries, Ottoman Emperor would be executed, rather than being exiled.
We are secular, do you understand? We don't want anything about religion in politics. You don't like it? Then live in a Islamic state, as if we should care...
There are Turkish versions of Quran.
We are Turks, not Arabs. It's that simple.
Ezan is a calling. Words are not important. You mean, Turkish people were trying to understand something which could be heard five times a day? Edited by Barış |
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ISLAMIC EMPIRE
Janissary
Joined: 06-Oct-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 10:25 |
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Ataturks aim was to get rid of all roots of islam away from the turks. i cant blieve u guys cant see this. everything he did was trying to make muslims look like non-muslims. think about it. abolished the sultanate (got rid of the last sultan even though he was inicent) today many european countries still have the royal family as a symbolic influence for the people (britain, denmark, holland, belguim, etc) away from europe includes (emporer of japan, china, etc). Turkey wont even let the desendants of the sultan in the country. why? coz there considerd as traitors to nation, which was prooved rong. abolishing caliphate (only 6 months after he got in power) if the caliphate stayed he would have had some loyalty from other muslim countries, which would hav made Turkey a globally popular state. (indonesia, malaysia, afghanistan, pakistan and some african countries like tunisia were still loyal to the caliph) changing the arabic letters to latin Yer sure its easier, its good but just think about it was ataturks real aim to make turkish litereture improve or was it to make sure the next generation of turkish muslims wont undersatnd and study (unless ur a historian) the islmaic culture left from the ottomans. hardly any turk knows how to read the koran these days in its original arabic form. bringing the european hats did use no that ataturk hanged 5000 people just becoz they refused to replace there muslim sariks for the euro hats (which is normal for a dictator). there is a story about this man who was about to get hanged for this reason. the judge ask this man "look we dont have to kill u, all u have to do is take off that sarik on ur hed and put on this hat, they are both pieces of cloth arnt they, whats the difference?" the man answerd in a cool way "ok, u are rite, but then if theres no diffeernce then why dont u take off that turkish flag behind you and put on a greek flag, there both peices of cloth arnt they" the judge in a very angry way proceded in sentencing him to death. Changing the ezan to turkish "Tanri Uludur instead of Allahu Ekber" from 1932-1950 coz of a law that ataturk made the universally excepted arabic form of the ezan was changed to turkish. even when doing this he was careful not to reveal all of the words of the ezan so people wont get ideas. hayal el-fellah which usually means come to be saved (haydin kurtulusa) was translated to haydin fellaha. got to hand it to him he was really smart at what he did. no turk knew what that word meant (fellaha). this is all that i can think about at the moment. have a ore open mind please his real aim was actually to destroy islam from the mumin turk milleti. |
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life it seems will fade away
drifting farther every day all i gotta do is pray nothing matters, no-one else simply nothing more to give there is nothing more for me i need the end to set me free |
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kotumeyil
Chieftain
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 21-Jun-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 1494 |
Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 09:36 |
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Before the abolition there wasn't such a role of the caliphate. It was generally used as a political title. I recall few religious sultans. As far as I know, few of them performed the religious duties well. I don't know any pilgrim sultans. I mean even before the abolition of the caliphate, there wasn't such a role of the caliphs. On the other hand there are (and were) a lot of sects in Islam in conflict with each other so today caliphate is unrealistic I think... By the way these don't interest me much since I'm an atheist
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[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">
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Mortaza
Tsar 
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 09:33 |
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Even if he believed these, he wouldn't say. He was a politician kotumeyil is right, maybe he is against islam or not. But He is not stupid. Saying this words at that times are stupidy. I think that Ataturk was neutral against islam.His campaign has no relation with islam. He used it when He can used it, and he fight against it, when Islam has conflicts with his campaign. I dont think we can call him as enemy of islam or protector of islam. He is a nationalist, and did what he think good for his nation.
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ISLAMIC EMPIRE
Janissary
Joined: 06-Oct-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 09:27 |
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i wouldnt know how people will be organised and stay as good or even true muslims without the caliph.... dont you think they would have been corrupted without someone using the laws of allah to hold the muslims together? like what other way could there be that people would maintain their religion without entering jahililah (if thats the correct word) or does there have to be a system or someone to hold the religion together to avoid corruption.....? |
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life it seems will fade away
drifting farther every day all i gotta do is pray nothing matters, no-one else simply nothing more to give there is nothing more for me i need the end to set me free |
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. how stupid is that, ask help from God insted.
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