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Argentum Draconis View Drop Down
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  Quote Argentum Draconis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Kurds
    Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 10:27
They dont look like any of their neighours. Someone said they came from Afghanistan long time ago i didnt believe him first but when watching a tv program about Afghanistan i noticed some Afghans are closer to them by look than any of their neighbours. Anyone knows their origins?
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  Quote Cent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 10:37

"The Kurdish people are a population of Indo-Iranian origin inhabiting a mountainous area of Southwest Asia that includes parts of Iraq, Turkey, and Iran as well as smaller sections of Syria, Armenia and lebanon. Kurds speak Kurdish, an Indo-Iranian language. They are, together with the people of Western and northwestern Iran, widely thought to be descended from the Medes. The ancient Greek historian Xenophon referred to the Kurds in the Anabasis as "Khardukhi" a fierce and protective mountain dwelling people who attacked his armies in 400 BC. Although many Kurds live in modern-day Middle-Eastern countries, it is worthy to note that they differ in ethnicity from Arabs, Assyrians, and Armenians."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds

 

They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
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  Quote Cent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 10:39

Religion:

"Kurds are estimated to be about 95 percent Muslim, especially Sunni Muslim (65%) and belong to the Shafi and Hanafi Schools of Islam. There are also Shia Muslims (20%) who primarily live in the Kermanshah and Ilam provinces of Iran and Central Iraq ("Al-Fayliah" Kurds). Alevi Muslims make up another 10% and are mainly found in Turkey. The remaining 15% are Christians, Jews and Yezidis.

Before the spread of Islam in the 7th century, most Kurds practiced Zoroastrianism. Yezidism is an ancient Kurdish religion. The faith's most holy place lies in Iraqi Kurdistan in the village of Lalish, north of Mosul and originally known as Ninevah. Most Yazidis live in Iraqi Kurdistan in the vicinity of Mosul, Sinjar, and Lalish. Large numbers of Yezidis are also found in Syria and Turkey. According to Yezidi sources, there are 800,000 Yezidis in the world."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds

They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
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  Quote Cent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 10:42

Here is some info about our history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Kurds



Edited by Cent
They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 10:43
Originally posted by Argentum Draconis

They dont look like any of their neighours. Someone said they came from Afghanistan long time ago i didnt believe him first but when watching a tv program about Afghanistan i noticed some Afghans are closer to them by look than any of their neighbours. Anyone knows their origins?


We've had this discussion here before its at

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3503&PN= 3

Although it began going in some good directions as in theories and possible roots, but then got full of jibberish..

p.s. wiki isnt the most good source for such information, but good for outlining, then searching possibilities.. I'd advize finding books written prior to 1900's mentioning them as a more or less good source but its quite rare.

Edited by baracuda
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  Quote Argentum Draconis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 11:12

I do know where do they live in and their culture but I want to learn their real origins since it is obvious they came to their current habitat from somewhere else.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 11:17

widely thought to be descended from the Medes

Not at all. They are a mixture of ancient Medes and Asur-Muslim Assyrians. I guess they immigrated to Zagros and northern Mesopotamia from inner Iran but not sure.

Noting that after WWI, lots of Armenians were converted to Islam against the law of "tehcir" in Eastern Anatolia, especially north and west of Van. Lots of Kurds of Eastern Anatolia including most in Tunceli and Erzurum are the descendents of those Muslim Armenians.

And they arent totally unique people. You cant differ some Kurds from a regular Turk. You cant differ some Kurds neither from an Iranian nor an Armenian. People of the same rgion resemble each other...



Edited by Oguzoglu
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 12:04

You cant differ some Kurds neither from an Iranian nor an Armenian.

Nor Turkish. 

Kurds have a wide varied look even within their own population.

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 13:12

Kurds exist in that region as early as history can remember and commonly identified with the ancient Corduene, which was inhabited by the Carduchi (mentioned in Xenophon). The question is not from where they came? Someone can say from Afghanista, or from Africa or the moon. the question is are they the  first and original inhabitant of that region is rather more precise.

Originally posted by baracuda

p.s. wiki isnt the most good source for such information, but good for outlining, then searching possibilities.. I'd advize finding books written prior to 1900's mentioning them as a more or less good source but its quite rare.

Beside ancient records of Kurds, Marco Polo described them as soon as he crossed the moutain range of eastern Turkey and all the way to Persia. You can search for his records. Though he had an unpleasant experience with them unfortunately .

 

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  Quote Argentum Draconis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 13:35
Why what happened
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 13:53

Well, according to Marco Polo's description, he said about the Kurds: "they are a people who rob you happily".  He also went on saying that, they had a great inhospitality toward foriegners.

Im suprised from his descriptions, because I met Iraqi Kurds and they are very friendly and honest. I guess it is his experience, and it is my experience.

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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 14:34
Actually there are other sources, from various french, english accounts of people travelling to the ottoman empire in various centuries, its interesting that they are virtually not mentioned at all.

When I first posted the "who are the kurds" post a couple months back, I was looking for undoubtable historical 'evidence' on the explanation of 'kurds' today, part all the propaganda and politics thats lying around in many modern books. So thats why I said an earlier time before the 1900's, they do exist.

Marco Polo.. never heard he mentioned kurds.. but the description sounds funny......
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 14:56

Why don't you look up the Sharraf Nameh?  Kurdish history written by a Kurd in Persian from the 15th century, is that early enough for you?

I will add that "Kurd" is historically a geographic adjective describing the people of the Zagros mountains. It was first used in in pre-Iranic times by the Sumerians in the form of "Kurt".  Over the millenia Iranic migrations Iranianised the area starting with the Mitani and the results are modern Kurds.. 



Edited by Zagros
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 15:37

I found the exact translaion of Marco Polo's description of Kurds people. He said kurds are people who "rob the merchants gladly" and found them inhospitable. So as early as the 13th century, Marco Polo's recognizes the existance of Kurds people and not only the area. That description was published in English too in the National Geographic, May 2001 issue.

The period of Arab dominance lasted until the 10th century. At that point, it began to weaken. The lack of another powerful occupying force resulted in a period of beneficial conditions. The result of these beneficial conditions were the formation of various Kurdish feudal states, in particular the Kurdish state of Marwaniden.

It is known that the Kurdish language is a cousin to the Persian language, however, they definitely existed as a seperate group way earlier by the start of the second millineum.



Edited by ok ge
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  Quote arfunda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 15:51
HISTORY

By: Prof. M. R. Izady

"Native inhabitants of their land, there are no "beginnings" for Kurdish history and people. Kurds and their history are end products of thousands of years of continuous internal evolution and assimila-tion of new peoples and cultures intro-duced sporadically into their land. Genetically, Kurds are the descendants of all those who came to settle in Kurdistan, and not any one of them. Thus, ancient peoples such as the Kurti, Guti, Mede, Mard, Carduchi/ Gordyene, Adianbene, Zela and Khaldi, each constitute only one ancestor and not the ancestor of the modern Kurd.

Archaeological finds continue to docu-ment that some of mankind's earliest steps in the development of agriculture, domes-ti-cation of many common farm animals (sheep, goats, hogs and dogs), manufacture of grape wine and beer, record keep-ing (the token system), development of domestic technologies (tabby weaving, fired pot-tery making and glazing), metallurgy and urban-ization took place in Kurdistan between 12,000 and 8,000 years ago.

The earliest evidence so far of a unified and distinct culture (and possibly, ethnicity) by people inhabiting the Kurdish moun-tains dates back to the Halaf culture of 8,000-7,400 years ago. This was followed by the spread of the Ubaidian culture, which was a foreign introduction from Mesopotamia. After about a millennium, its dominance was replaced by the Hurrian cul-ture, which may or may not have been the Halafian people reasserting their domi-nance over their mountainous homeland. The Hurrian period lasted for nearly 4000 years from circa 6,300 to 2,600 years ago.

Much more is known of the Hurrians. They spoke a language of the Northeast Caucasian family of languages (or Alarodian), kin to modern Chechen and Lezgian. The Hurrians spread far and wide, dominating much territory outside their Zagros-Taurus mountain base. They settled most of Anatolia and all the way to the Bosphorus. Like their Kurdish descen-dents, they however did not expand too far from the mountains. Their intrusions into the neighboring plains of Mesopotamia and the Iranian Plateau, there-fore, were primar-ily military annexations with little popula-tion settlement. Their economy was sur-prisingly integrated and focused, along with their political bonds, mainly running paral-lel with the Zagros-Taurus mountains, rather than radiating out to the lowlands, as was the case during the preceding (foreign) Ubaid cultural period. Mountain-plain eco-nomic exchanges remained secondary in importance, judging from the archaeological remains of goods and their origin.

The Hurrians-whose name survives now most prominently in the name of the Kurdish districts of Hawraman/Awraman and Hakkari, and the clan name Haraki-divided into many clans and subgroups, who set up city-states, kingdoms and em-pires known today after their respective clan names. These included the Qardu, Guti, Khaldi, Mard, Mushku, Manna, Hatti, Mittani, Urartu, and the Kassu, to name a few. All these were Hurrians, and to-gether form the Hurrian phase of Kurdish history.

By about 4,000 years ago, the first van-guard of Indo-European-speaking peo-ples were trickling into Kurdistan in limited numbers. They formed the aristocracy of the Mitanni, Kassite, and Hittite kingdoms, while the common peoples remained solidly Hurrian. Meanwhile, around 3800 years ago, the name "Kurti" (Kurd) made its first debut into ancient records for a people and a kingdom located on the south shores of Lake Van and the Hakkari heights.

By about 3,000 years ago, the trickle had turned into a flood, and Hurrian Kurdistan was fast becoming Indo-European Kurdistan. Far from having been wiped out, the Hurrian legacy, despite its linguistic eclipse, remains the single most important element of Kurdish culture to date. It forms the substructure for every aspect of Kurdish existence, from their native reli-gion to their art, their social organization, women's status, and even their militia warfare.

Medes, Scytho-Sarmatians, Sindis, Alans and Sagarthians are just the better-known clans of the Indo-European-speaking Aryans who settled in Kurdistan. About 2,600 years ago, the Medes had already set up a federation that in-cluded all Kurdistan and vast territories beyond. Medians were fol-lowed by scores of other kingdoms and city-states-all dom-inated by Aryan aristocracies and a populace that was becoming Indo-European speaking if not already so.

By the advent of the classical era in 300 BC, Kurds were already experiencing mas-sive population movements that resulted in settlement and domination of many neigh-boring regions. Important Kurdish polities of this time were all by-products of these movements. The Zelan Kurdish clan of Coppadocia (Malatya-Kaysari area), for example, spread to establish in ad-dition to the Zelanid dynasty of Commagene, the Zelanid kingdom of Cappadocia and the Zelanid empire of Pontus-all in Anatolia. These became Roman vassals by the end of the 1st cen-tury BC. In the east the Kurdish kingdoms of Adiabene, Sophene, Gordyene, Cortea, Media, and Kirm had, by the 1st century BC, become confederate members of the Parthian Federation. By the 3rd century BC, the use of the name Kurd (Greek: Kurti; Latin: Cyrti) for the people inhabit-ing modern Kurdistan and other Kurdish colonies become prevalent in the classical Graeco-Roman texts.

While all larger Kurdish kingdoms of the west gradually lost their existence to the Romans, in the east they survived into the 3rd century AD and the advent of the Sasanian Persian empire. The last major Kurdish dynasty, the Kayosids, fell in AD 380. Smaller Kurdish principalities (called the Kofyr, "mountain administrators") however, preserved their autonomy into the 7th century and the advent of Islam."

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 16:11
Good article Arfunda.
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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 16:58
"Cok gec" - I dont believe to much in translations, as I have seen "Liber Tartarorum" Book of Tatars of the voyages of Frier Iohn de Plano Carpini in 1200's be translated to focus solely on Mongols.. you can find the latin and then look at the english, its funny. So original documents, are better than "translations" of them.

"Zagros" any link to the original untouched version of this 'Sharrafnamah' and not a re-take or translation?



"arfunda" why post an article direct from Kurdistanica.com? as its totaly useless part for propaganda..
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 17:07

Search google for sharraf nameh.

Care to point out the fallacies in that propaganda article?  Sure you can do it, it is less than a page.

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  Quote Argentum Draconis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 17:15

Salahaddin Ayyubi was a kurd so why are you trying to prove there werent kurds at that time? And besides i want to learn where they came from, the Afghanistan idea seemed interesting and wondered if someone else knows if it is true if it isnt, their actual origin.

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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 17:59

Originally posted by Argentum Draconis

Salahaddin Ayyubi was a kurd so why are you trying to prove there werent kurds at that time? And besides i want to learn where they came from, the Afghanistan idea seemed interesting and wondered if someone else knows if it is true if it isnt, their actual origin.

No Salahaddin was not a Kurd. He was most probably a Turk.

His brothers' name were Turansah, Tugtekin and Bori. These names are pure Turkish........  In the family there are Turkish names such as Umar Bey, Gokbori (wholy wolf), Karakus (black bird), Kilicarslan (lion sword).

The root of family is in Azerbaycan but they later migrated to Iraq and if I am not mistaken Salahaddin was born in Tikrit; Iraq in a city where there was almost none Kurdish population.

But after Salahaddin they started to use Arabic name and the Eyyubi dinasty has mixed with Arabs. Salahaddin has been raised in Turkish palace and raised with a strong Turkish culture and military discipline. But during and after the crusaders his strong religious faith made himself define only with Islam and forget about pagan Turkish names and rituals. Because of this fact and mixing with Arabs the family has started to use only Arabic name and a few generation later they were fully Arabised.

So even if there are claims that Salahaddin was a Kurd this is not true......

 

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