Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Rushton Revisited

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 6>
Author
Plutarch View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 19-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80
  Quote Plutarch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rushton Revisited
    Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 17:49
There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people. --Thomas Jefferson
Back to Top
Komnenos View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Administrator

Joined: 20-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4361
  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 19:31
As most people here haven't got the time to read all this, could you please provide us with a summary of the article and make your position in this issue clear, so we have something to discuss.
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
Back to Top
Tobodai View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Antarctica
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4310
  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 20:44

I read it, Ill summarize it.  I do actually suggest everyone reads it as its intresting though I do find flaws with it.  Despite our differences Plutarch I would like to thank you for posting this article as it was original and intresting in many regards.

Bascially, the same dude who suggested that genetic variation in races has mroe to do with behavior and intelligence than culture some years back is back again, and no one seems to care as much this time.  The article theorizes this could be because now he has scientific evidence.  Basically this guy says Jews and Asians are the smartest people, followed by whites, followed by blacks.  Im actually suprised Plutarch posted this as it puts Jews and Asians above most "whites"

Obviously I think genetic varaition has mroe bearing than culture, but I dont think it quite trumps personality of the individual, thankfully the author does make space for indivduals trumping his broad generalizations.

My problems with the argument is these things are often based off of only what the author of the study values.  whites and asians are not overall superior to blacks, they just do better on tests, but their genes are not as dominant and they tend to be less pshysically strong and coordinated so if you take all things into account theres no universal superiority in all things. 

Also the theory puts little credence to things that might change with time, and thats silly, the state of humanity was always been constant change.  Still my most recent read which certainly does not come from the same perspective as this theory, lends credence to certain behaviors being environmentally based.  This is what I think as I think the geography or where someone lives is far more important than the people.  Evolution isnt just physical, its mental.  People outside of their evolved environment simply wont perform as well as inside of it. 

However even I cant be too deterministic, I go to a school with both large amounts of Africans from Africa and blacks from America and I can tell you they are certainly not universally the same by any means.  African-Americans have developed a defeatist and anti establishment culture that certainly is justified, but serves only to dig their grave deeper.  Africans studying here from Africa however tend to be our best students, excelling at academics in all fields and surpassing the white Americans most of the time. 

But overall a thought provoking artcile about a societal controversy. 

 

"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
Back to Top
Cywr View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6003
  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 22:40
When you compare IQ results from European countries with East Asian ones, the gap shrinks or even disappears, it only seems to relevant within the US. So where are the theories suggesting that American whites have lower IQs than European whites for genetic reasons?

The same can be said for the academic achievments of African migrants vs American blacks, and the same again in the UK, and the gap isn't exactly small.


Edited by Cywr
Arrrgh!!"
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952
  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 00:31

Originally posted by Cywr

So where are the theories suggesting that American whites have lower IQs than European whites for genetic reasons?

Living in the White House.



Edited by Paul
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 01:21
Originally posted by Cywr

When you compare IQ results from European countries with East Asian ones, the gap shrinks or even disappears, it only seems to relevant within the US. So where are the theories suggesting that American whites have lower IQs than European whites for genetic reasons?


Ah, that explains EVERYTHING.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Cywr View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6003
  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 03:09
Yes yes, very droll folks.

But this notion that we can take statistics gathered along very generic racial lines that only aknowedlges the barest minimum of human genetic diversity, and largely only from the US/N.America (conveinelty ignoring any possible influence of the spcifics of that societ or the patterns of migration to there) at that, and then pass it off as complete understandings without a more broad questioning/testing procedure is somewhat lacking. We expect much more in any other area, but we wimp out when it comes to the oh so sacred colours codes.

The article mentioned the Azkenazi, intresting, but lets test it to the max. The article mentions that part of the theory rests on the discrimination forcing Jews to excell in a few niches, and mentions that there was little intermixing.
Now, this is nice, but it is very simplistic, afterall, the Askenazi look more European than their Shepardic cousins for a reason, and furthermore, degrees of intermixing between Jewish and non-Jewish/Gentiles Europeans vary greatly over space and time, so why not dive further and come up with some more finite. Find Askenazi communities where was considerable intermixing, and compare it with those where there were few.

The media have a role to play too.
Take the most recent fuss over the world's first 'race specific' drug, on tests amoungst people who's sole measure of blackness was to tick on a peace of paper whether or not they felt wholey, or in part, black, and upon which only some 40ish percent were found to have a positive response to the treatment (its been a while since i've sat in a math class, but i think 40% counts as a minority), and suddenly we have a 'black drug', a 'race drug', which we are to assume, will benift Afro-Americans, West Africans, Ethiopians and the Bushmen of the Kalihari in equal measure, without bothering to test this assumption, i mean, they are all basicly black right?

It strikes me as just a little strange that people so concerned with investigating human diversity seem only concerned with certain way of apprciating it. The same way of appriciating it, incidently, that was selected for a regime of racial segregation and exclusive migration practices.

Who cares if the Irish (was it the Irish? i forgot) have a higher than normal average of heriditery heameochromotosis, look over there, lots black people have sickle cell amenia, lets ignore the fact that combined, the number of south Europeans, middle easterners and south Asians is probably greater than the number of Africans who have it, in the US, its mostly Afro-Americans that have it and this is all that matters apparently.
Arrrgh!!"
Back to Top
Plutarch View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 19-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80
  Quote Plutarch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 11:02
Obviously I think genetic varaition has mroe bearing than culture, but I dont think it quite trumps personality of the individual, thankfully the author does make space for indivduals trumping his broad generalizations.

My problems with the argument is these things are often based off of only what the author of the study values.  whites and asians are not overall superior to blacks, they just do better on tests, but their genes are not as dominant and they tend to be less pshysically strong and coordinated so if you take all things into account theres no universal superiority in all things. 

The point of his studies is to research these group variations in intellegence and behavior.  You seem to be missing the point, nobody is arguing universal superiority in all things.  The main arguement is difference.  Ofcourse the average west African will be faster than the average Japanese, but who is on average more intellegent?  I find it hard to see how he is making broad generalizations in face of his research.  The emphasis is on group difference as it is silly to think that all in one group are the same in every respect.

Also the theory puts little credence to things that might change with time, and thats silly, the state of humanity was always been constant change.  Still my most recent read which certainly does not come from the same perspective as this theory, lends credence to certain behaviors being environmentally based.  This is what I think as I think the geography or where someone lives is far more important than the people.  Evolution isnt just physical, its mental.  People outside of their evolved environment simply wont perform as well as inside of it.

Exactly.  I would say that is the same reason the populations of Europe and east Asia developed higher IQs than sub-Saharan African ones.

However even I cant be too deterministic, I go to a school with both large amounts of Africans from Africa and blacks from America and I can tell you they are certainly not universally the same by any means.  African-Americans have developed a defeatist and anti establishment culture that certainly is justified, but serves only to dig their grave deeper.  Africans studying here from Africa however tend to be our best students, excelling at academics in all fields and surpassing the white Americans most of the time.
 

Obviously the African blacks at your school comprise of the creme de la creme of their population with higher average IQs.  But after all, how many African Albert Einsteins and Aristotles have we had?

But overall a thought provoking artcile about a societal controversy. 

I'm glad you enjoyed it.

As to Cywr's last post, it seems pretty incoherent and hard to follow.  What exactly are you trying to argue? 

There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people. --Thomas Jefferson
Back to Top
morticia View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Editor

Joined: 09-Aug-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2077
  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 11:36
Good Day:

Ha Ha - Professor Rushton....a guest on the Geraldo Rivera Show? That says it all for me!!!! N E X T !!!

Morty





Edited by morticia
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 11:40

Let me tell you guys that (physical abilities and faculties being equal) intelligence has more to do with one's environment than genetic diferences. The school you go to, the neighborhood you live in, if you have food on the table or a BMW in your garage are important variables not to be overlooked.

IQ testing is sensitive to socio-cultural norms as well. 

 I am all for education. This tends to bring up the scores on general fund of knowledge questions in certain subsets of an IQ test - like Vocabulary, Information, and Comprehension.

Personality also plays a part in scoring. A mellow laid back type or an obsessive compulsive person would score low, as compared to one without such traits, due to poor response time to 'timed' questions. 

Have you ever heard of an IQ test standardized from norms of lower class felons? Not I. Could be a good idea for the incarcerated crowd and correctional officers, but not for the general population. And even then the felon with the highest IQ is really judged in comparison with his own kind. That would hardly suggest a universal acceptance towards reliable IQ.

We all have differences. We all have special skills. Some excel where others don't. The ultranationalists or supremacists of certain stripes would have you believe that a certain genetic factor is what makes them great. This is all propaganda B.S. What makes us all great is the ability to know that in reality we are not.



Edited by Seko
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor

Suspended

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 11:59

The quality of mental stimulation during infancy plays a huge role in future intelligence.

Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 12:10

Absolutely! Mental and physical stimulation is correllated with mature growth.

Some variables that detrimentally effect IQ scores: mother's substance abuse history, child or sexual abuse, lack of love and attention, etc.

Back to Top
Plutarch View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 19-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80
  Quote Plutarch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 12:17

Genes ofcourse have nothing to do with intellegence at all.  And the average Black IQ being somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 points below the average Japanese IQ signifies absolutely nothing having to do with genetics and evolution.

There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people. --Thomas Jefferson
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 12:23

I am glad that you are starting to see the light. (Is it me or was it you that made the first sarcastic remark?)

I am not an expert in Japanese or 'Black' peoples but I bet neither are you.

Genes have to do with programmed traits of a persons physical, biological  and certain psychological abilities. Again, all things being equal (not retarted) socio-economical and cultural differences tend to play a critical role in IQ scores.

I would even guess that if you take those very same 'black' people and let them live in Japan for two generations that those new 'Black Japanese' would have higher IQ's than the orignal 'Blacks'. And visa-versa.

So far only a few genes have been identified that affect cognitive abilities, and those have to do with disabilities instead. Single genes in certain cases of mental retardation and Alzheimers have been identified. This, overall, is a far cry from saying that we know what genetic factors cause superiority (high IQ) for some ethnicities over others.   



Edited by Seko
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor

Suspended

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 12:54

As you say, socio-economic circumstance determines infant learning to the largest degree. That is why none or barely any of history's great minds hailed from a poor/peasant/working class background. 

Back to Top
Plutarch View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 19-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80
  Quote Plutarch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 13:17

Says who?

Socrates, Aristotle, Da Vinci, Beethoven, Edison, Tesla........



Edited by Plutarch
There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people. --Thomas Jefferson
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 13:44
The key word is variable. Culture and social status are a few items that affect IQ. People from healthy backgrounds, but that are not so well off, can still recieve a good education or become street wise. This tends to increase a score. Hence Socrates, and Da Vinci etc. 
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 14:33

Originally posted by Cywr

When you compare IQ results from European countries with East Asian ones, the gap shrinks or even disappears, it only seems to relevant within the US. So where are the theories suggesting that American whites have lower IQs than European whites for genetic reasons?

Ummm...in Europe?

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 14:48
Originally posted by Plutarch

Genes ofcourse have nothing to do with intellegence at all.  And the average Black IQ being somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 points below the average Japanese IQ signifies absolutely nothing having to do with genetics and evolution.

What do you mean by 'Black'? There is more genetic diversity within the African population than there is in the rest of the world combined. skin colour is only one, and a totally unimportant, racial characteristic.

Take away the idiotic pre-eminence we put on skin colour, and classify humanity into races, and there will be more different ones in Africa than in Eurasia.

Look at the Olympic Games. Sprints dominated by West Africans. Long distances dominated by East Africans. But West Africans can't run far, and East Africans can't run fast (faster than me admittedly ) And South Africans aren't particularly good at either.

How can you consider them the same race?

Go by body hair and Scandinavians and West Africans fall in the same group - a different one from Mediterraneans.

There are indeed racial differences. But linking them to skin colour in particular is ridiculous.

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 14:56

And Tobodai is quite right. Culture-wise, African-Americans have virtually nothing in common with Africans or for that matter West Indians. From my own experience dealing with both, mostly in Georgia (my wife is from Atlanta)  anglophone Africans and West Indians actually have more in common with 'whites' from elsewhere in the Commomwealth.

They point this out themselves. (And it isn't totally irrelevant that they play soccer and cricket.) 

And from experience here in Luxembourg the Cap Verdians - of whom there are many here - have more in common with their fellow Portuguese speakers than with anyone else (though they overlap some with other West Africans, mainly I think because of economic similarities in their background).

Language is a very powerful cultural determinant. So too is the educational institutional framework, which is similar throughout the former colonial countries of the Commonwealth.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 6>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.