More- should Turkey join the EU???

Phallanx,

Kita, mate, it's the third post now, but you haven't got it yet, so I'll write it clearly once more. I am not taking part in your so-called 'discussion'. And I am sure as hell not saying that Turkey is better than Greece. I am simply not interested in bashing Greece or Greeks. It is you who keeps comparing Greece to Turkey, not me. If our subject is Turkey starting accession talks to EU membership, we should compare Turkey to Romania and Bulgaria in the 90s and Greece in the 70s.

When I mention Greece I do it to expose your hipocricy- that you obviously don't care about any human rights. Or to show that even the members of the EU have problems after 25 years, so it is not fair to ask Turkey to be better than Greece.

Anyway, I would like to engage in a dialogue with Greeks, but I am totally inconvinced that you are interested in dialogue. I replied to you in the first place because you are reading news on Turkey all the time, looking for bits of information to bash Turks, and you post them in a distorted way. As in the 'Del Spiegel' case. I don't know of that magazine, but I am actually subscribed to 'Der Spiegel' and I know the Turks in Germany far better than you, don't you worry. 

Strategos,

What's your point? I personally don't mind changing official name of Istanbul to Kostantiniyye, it sounds cooler. Let's change the unpronouncable name of Thessaloniki to Selanik also, though, because it was the official name until recently.

In other words, I am from Istanbul, and you probably haven't even seen the place. Wake up and smell the Turkish coffee, mate, Istanbul is a Turkish city and we call it whatever we want. You want to call it Kostantiniyye or Miklagard or whatever you like, fine, do it, our city has many names. But don't ever dare to lecture me on what to call my city.

To Greeks in general,

I have seen people from all nations, and I think Greeks are the most nationalistic of them all. I actually have a 'theory' about this. I paste from what I wrote in another thread:

'I think the problem arises from the fact that there used to be two cultural areas in Europe, Latin and Greek. But the Greek cultural sphere was destroyed by the Muslims and the Latins. Later, when Latins industrialised, they pushed the Turks out of Greek culture sphere. But the Greek culture couldn't recover. It used to be an equal of Muslims or Latins. Western Europeans (i.e. Latins) also created a myth, in their height of power and arrogance, called the 'Western Civilisation' into which they incorporated the ancient Greeks but conveniently excluded the height of Greek achievement, the Byzantine Empire. When the Greeks were freed from the Turkish yoke (by the Westerners), they bought into this story. Which is not surprising, since the West got so strong, everyone wants a piece of it, even the Turks and Iranians as we see.'

Tell me what to think about it.

Jazz,

Ayasofya is not 'just one mosque', it is important for Muslims as well. And tourism is not that important. I prefer Ayasofya as a museum- not a mosque, not a church, a museum. And it won't be 'a big gesture', to make it a church because the Muslims in Turkey and around the world won't like that. As you wrote Turkey is to custodian to the building, and it should be restored and kept as a mankind heritage site, a museum, open for all.  

Also, nobody has asked the Balkan states to reconvert the Ottoman mosques back to join the EU. If they pressure Turkey for this Turkish government will tell them to fornicate off and the countries that really count (i.e. Westerners) will back Turkey. And everyone in Turkey from communist to fascist will agree with that decision too. Of course, this will never come up, unless you count some over-excited Greek or Romanian MPs as serious international pressure.

So what's your point? Should we import Greeks to make the city more interesting for tourists? Istanbul is a city, man, not Disneyf**kingland on the Bosphorus. Besides, I am not so sure that I'd like to turn Istanbul into Jerusalem, with Greek ghettos and suicide bombers and all that.

I am actually opposed to Turkey joining the EU. I am a communist, and I think that we already have too much neoliberalist imperialism in Turkey. But I think EU pressure on Turkey in some political matters is a positive force, so I support it.

The overwhelming majority of the immigrant Turkish workers in Germany were peasants who had never seen a big city in Turkey before. They directly went to Germany and as a result of the cultural shock they tend to preserve their own culture and they became more and more conservatist. They are much more conservatist than the avarage Turk in Turkey. This is a fact that shapes the  image of "the Turk" in Europe. For example, the USA accepts only highly educated white collar immigrants from Turkey so the image of "the Turk" is very different from the European vision...

Leonidas,

I don't think you are a nationalist. But I am yet to see a Greek who's not in love with his/her state.

Ok, I'll clear what I wrote a bit.

Turks have invaded most of the Greek cultural sphere, which consisted of the Byzantine Empire and the lands with Orthodox religion. In this sphere, everyone looked at Greeks as the source of civilisation and considered them the main power. And the Greeks themselves had no doubt whatsoever that they were different than (and superior to), the 'West' (Latins) or to Islam.

But Latins and Muslims destroyed that state of affairs for ever. And when the Turks were forced out of (half of) that area, it left a cultural vacuum, which was not filled by a revival of Byzantine power and Greek culture, but by small states dominated by Western culture.

Today we cannot speak of a Greek culture sphere or Greek leadership in Europe, there is only the 'European' sphere, post-Christian Latin, i.e. Western. That's why I say that it was destroyed. Today, all states in Europe consider themselves to be a part of this with the exception of Russia and its satellites, but even they are not Greek anymore, they are more like a separate post-communist sphere now. Russia tried to fill the gap left by Byzantium for a while, and resisted the West, but the communist rule transformed their role and culture to a great extent. Communism itself is nothing but a Western counter-culture.

I am not trying to belittle the efforts of the Greeks fighting for their independence. But remember that 'nationalism' itself is a Western idea, which shows the Western domination of the Greek cultural life. As Western ideals started to spread around the Greeks, there were two factions, one asking for cooperation with the Turks against the West and re-institution of the Byzantine Empire by culturally taking over the Ottoman Empire from inside. It makes some sense when one considers that Greeks were richest group in the Empire because they dominated the sea trade. In the 18th century, Phanariots and Greeks merchants were Hellenising Romanians and others, bringing about the hope of a Byzantine cultural revival. Today it seems strange for us that the Greek rebellion in 1820 also took place in Istanbul, but it signifies this usually ignored trend. 

But there was another group, which was western influenced and had asked for a independent Greek nation state. The second movement became dominant, and Greeks abandoned the dreams of a Byzantine revival in return for a ethnic Greek nation state.

In any case, it was impossible for Greeks to overthrow the Turkish yoke without Western ideas, military, economic and diplomatic help- when they did, and the way they did. Maybe later, but not the way it happened in our history. It was no coincidence that Greece had a German king after independence. Just imagine what a Byzantine would think of a German Emperor...

As to your analysis of Turkey,

I agree with you in most things. You are right about the siege mentality and paranoid reactions, but should see that this in no way restricted to Turkey. Everyone in the Balkans have it to some degree. Think about the fuss Greece makes over what to call Macedonia or its minorities. Or look at the Yugoslavs. Or look at Bulgaria, who tried to oppress Turkish culture even under Communism... Examples abound. I think it is because these countries have adopted nationalism from the west, and not developed it intrinsically.

One thing you are wrong about is Ottoman nostalgia. Turkish Republic is hostile to the Ottoman state. Because Ottomans were Muslim, cosmopolitan, ethnically diverse empire. Ottoman Empire is the anti-thesis of the secularist, ethno-nationalist Turkish Republic. You'll never be able to predict Turkey if you think it wants to revert to Ottoman ways.

Most ironic thing about all this is Europeans saying Turkey is not european because it is too nationalistic. That's very funny. Tell me something more european than nationalism?