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Medieval Transylvania

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Medieval Transylvania
    Posted: 12-May-2006 at 04:40
Originally posted by Chilbudios

I noticed as a personal observation that there are historical characters in Gesta Hungarorum. For instance, Ahtum/Ohtum is one duke who seems to have actually reigned relatively same territory as Anonymous' character Glad, and Ohtum gets also a mention in GH as a descendent of Glad. This duke is also mentioned in Legenda St. Gerardi (XIth century) where his conflict with Hungarian kingdom is pictured. Were all characters of Anonymous be born out of fiction and be misplaced (as some historians and forum users claimed), how this one gets a historical confirmation, and one of a relative accuracy? 

One argument about misplacement is a quick resolution over various anachronisms. If are there indeed anachronisms and are not our dismissive and erroneous judgements. An example: GH mentions "picenati" (which seem to point to Pechenegs) alongside with Cumans. Those who believe GH is rather a fiction, claimed this is an anachronism invoking the "piccinaci" mentioned by the sources of the First crusade. Probably few of them know (and I didn't know that until I've read a study written by Al. Madgearu) of the Chronicle of Regino of Prum which says that Magyars were chased away from Scythia by "pecinaci". I can't prove that Anonymous Notary used this material, but certainly the typical criticism that this possible ethnonym is an anachronism cannot be issued.

What am I trying to say? That a closer analysis and a wider perspective upon the medieval sources may show that GH is not a fantasy work, and though some of you may not like it, he may had used sources (XIth century sources, maybe even Xth century sources) to picture the stories of GH.

I also want to reply to one of the earlier interpretations:

The anwer is clear. Franks

Let's turn to "pastores Romanorum" which occurs in the chronicle of Kezai Simon
which was composed between 1282 and 1285,the Descriptio Europe Orientalis composed by an anonymous Frenchman in 1308, so  382 and 408 years after the conquest and all reflect present  conditions of their time. They do not prove
any romanian presence in the time of the conquest.

 The "pastores Romanorum" and also the discription pastures occurs at Anonymous.
Yet what does Anonymous mean  here by "Roman" in the context of ninth century?
It is possible that he is referring to the Eastern Frankish Kingdom which exercised a tenous authority  in lower     Pannonia at the end of the century.

Actually DEO explicitely says that Magyars defeated 10 Vlach (Blazi, Pannoni) kings before they settled in Pannonia and that these Vlachs run south after defeat. DEO also explains in two places that Blazi and Pannoni were "pastores romanorum" (I don't have the text near me, so I just used your syntagm). Keza is also very clear: after Attila's death, Blackis, qui ipsorum fuere pastores et coloni, remanentibus sponte in Pannonia. Keza also says Zaculi (Szekelys) and Blacki (Vlachs) lived together in the highlands.

So these "pastores" were prior to any Frankish presence and moreover, they existed in territories (like Carpathian mountains) where the Frankish influence was quasi-null.

It has been suggested that he is referring to foreign (Catholic) Knights who had been invited by succesive Hungarian Kings and had been granted large estates. Gy. Kristo is of the opinion that Anonymous had no knowledge of the Frankish kingdom and that in the context of ninth century Romans means inhabitants of the Holy Roman Empire .
Wishful thinking. There are plenty of testimonies (check Liutprand of Cremona reply to Byzantine court - 10th century) that the Latin sources from those ages knew who were Romans and who were not. Was there any intellectual tradition in 12-14th century Hungary to consider Franks as Romans? Bring the evidence if so.

1. Arpad is also a historical person.

As far as I know no one doubt that there are real historical elements (like in a modern historical novel). Anonymus tells the story of the Hungarian Conquest not the story of Middle Earth or Westeros.

The problem is that -generally speaking- both Hungarian and Romanian historians consider those element truth which support their theories. 

2. For Kezai: Kzei also states that Szeklers used the alphabet of the Blacki. (It's a rather strange presumtion that Szeklers learnt the rovs -a a rune writing of turk origin- from the ancient Romanians.) What is your opinion of this statement?

3. You seem very well informed in the questions of Romanian history. Are you a professional historian, a university student on history or something?

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2006 at 08:36
Originally posted by RomiosArktos

 Where did these vlachs go after their defeat from the Magyars.Did they settle in what is now Serbia?

Assuming this information is true, these Vlachs could've settled somewhere south of Danube - probably Serbia, but could be as well on the Dalmatian coast, in Bulgaria or even in Byzantine territories. But also I think these chronicles don't necessarily describe Vlacho-Magyar interactions, we know the ethnic designations from those times can be misleading and anachronic. Could be as well Bulgars, Avars or other populations which inhabited and controlled parts of the Carpathian Basin.


Usually in the medieval sources the Romans were the Byzantine Greeks and not the Francs.
I'm not sure if "usually" but certainly many times, yes, they were

Originally posted by Raider

Arpad is also a historical person.
Of course. So is St. Stephen, but then one can easily counterargue that they were too famous, and that doesn't prove the Anonymous Notary used a certain earlier source, he could just have know about them as we know today of Stalin or Reagan without consulting a history book. In other fictional  works we see historical persons - like Attila in Niebelunglied, yet I think fame, not historicity, is the reason why such a character is there. But I don't think an obscure duke of X-XIth century Banate was a famous character at Hungarian court at the end of XIIth century.

 

As far as I know no one doubt that there are real historical elements (like in a modern historical novel). Anonymus tells the story of the Hungarian Conquest not the story of Middle Earth or Westeros.

Yeah, but like I tried to say, what kind of historical elements? Those you hear around you, or those you consult a source for? I think Anonymous used written sources, not just court rumours or local myths.

The problem is that -generally speaking- both Hungarian and Romanian historians consider those element truth which support their theories. 
Sad, but true in so many cases.

 

For Kezai: Kzei also states that Szeklers used the alphabet of the Blacki. (It's a rather strange presumtion that Szeklers learnt the rovs -a a rune writing of turk origin- from the ancient Romanians.) What is your opinion of this statement?
I don't think this statement is 100% accurate as probably few from these Hungarian (or medieval European ) chronicles are. But I'm sure that there might be a half-truth and that some hypotheses can be issued to attempt to reveal it. Were the Romanic people from those times and areas already mixed with Turkic people (Bulgars, Avars or whatever remnants of the Huns), and therefore developing an own culture? Were both Vlachs and Szeklers some populations with obscure origins but displaying some similar features, in a way that made some claimed they lived together and influenced each other (why Szeklers had to take the writing from Vlachs and not vice-versa, I don't know )?

You seem very well informed in the questions of Romanian history. Are you a professional historian, a university student on history or something?
Nah. Just having a hobby Though a History specialisation doesnt' sound that bad ... it's a matter of time and ... lazyness



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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2006 at 09:21
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Originally posted by Raider

Arpad is also a historical person.
Of course. So is St. Stephen, but then one can easily counterargue that they were too famous, and that doesn't prove the Anonymous Notary used a certain earlier source, he could just have know about them as we know today of Stalin or Reagan without consulting a history book. In other fictional  works we see historical persons - like Attila in Niebelunglied, yet I think fame, not historicity, is the reason why such a character is there. But I don't think an obscure duke of X-XIth century Banate was a famous character at Hungarian court at the end of XIIth century.

As far as I know no one doubt that there are real historical elements (like in a modern historical novel). Anonymus tells the story of the Hungarian Conquest not the story of Middle Earth or Westeros.

Yeah, but like I tried to say, what kind of historical elements? Those you hear around you, or those you consult a source for? I think Anonymous used written sources, not just court rumours or local myths.

As far as I know it is nearly certain that he used the Chronicle of Nestor, and Hungarian historians beleive that his references of genealogy and noble families are quite accurate.

For Kezai: Kzei also states that Szeklers used the alphabet of the Blacki. (It's a rather strange presumtion that Szeklers learnt the rovs -a a rune writing of turk origin- from the ancient Romanians.) What is your opinion of this statement?
I don't think this statement is 100% accurate as probably few from these Hungarian (or medieval European ) chronicles are. But I'm sure that there might be a half-truth and that some hypotheses can be issued to attempt to reveal it. Were the Romanic people from those times and areas already mixed with Turkic people (Bulgars, Avars or whatever remnants of the Huns), and therefore developing an own culture? Were both Vlachs and Szeklers some populations with obscure origins but displaying some similar features, in a way that made some claimed they lived together and influenced each other (why Szeklers had to take the writing from Vlachs and not vice-versa, I don't know )?

Some historians usually allude to this point of Kezai's work to prove that the word blacki do not refers to ancient Romanians, but a turk steppe tribe. But most of the Hungarian historians agreed with the Romanian view that this interpretation is false.

Well, what do you think about the original question of the topic: the status of medieval Transylvania?



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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 17:08

The status of medieval Transylvania is a very generous topic.

From the things which caused this paranthesis related to Gesta Hungarorum, I certainly don't agree with a full of extent of Hungarian control over Transylvania as they arrived due to several reasons (the stories from GH aside). I will list few of them:

- Written sources: In 10th century we have the testimony of Constantine Porphyrogenitus which says that between Tourkia and Patzinakia there's a 4 days journey. That suggests an uncontrolled Transylvania (not by Magyars, Pechenegs or other political power known/relevant to Byzantines).

- Archaeology: the early Magyar sites do not cover the entire territory of Transylvania but several areas - the western plains and along some large valleys like the one of Mures/Maros.

- Archaeology and numismatics: there are some coins which characterise the early Magyar sites - the western coins or the Arab dirhems (until 930 or so) most of them probably being used for decorative purposes rather than trade. There were no Arab dirhems found in Transylvania (they were mostly found in the north-east of today Hungary) and only one western coin from the period 886-955, when the Magyars were raiding heavily. It's a German coin issued by Berthold, count of Bayern (938/9-947). Needless to say, there are plenty of findings in Pannonia

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2006 at 02:58

Chilbudios:

Well, these pieces of information fit to my  idea which based on the difference between the hatr (~border) and gyep (~frontier).

But what really interest me: was Transylvania part of the Kingdom or -as Romanian historians see- was a vassal state?

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2006 at 10:26

Originally posted by Raider

Hungarians differs gyep (frontier) and hatr (border). Hatr is a line where one country nominally ends and an other country begins. Gyep is a line where public administration ends and border guards stands.

 A political state/formation can't stretch more than it can control, therefore I think there is little difference between nominal possessions and factual possessions. The fragmentation of the space in "countries" (not the fittest term, IMHO) is misleading. However there's a question of royal rights and colonization in Transylvania I'll try to discuss it below, and perhaps this is what you've ment.

Indeed, the possessions of Hungarian Kingdom in Transylvania are also studied from the point of view of gyep (lat: indagines), and these borders are interrupted from place to place by kapu (lat. porta; and perhaps also porcz derived from the Romanian pori). But beyond these borders, sometimes there are solitudines, terrae desertae, sometimes other political spaces (which sometimes can be bound by vassalages or other obedience acts to the royal crown of Hungary).

During X-XIVth century the Hungarian kingdom (at least in Transylvania) expanded this border and one process was a conquest of these "deserted" spaces (the royal acts are evidences from 12-13th century onward, the extrapolation belongs to me and we can discuss it; what it should be noted is that the discussion about royal rights makes sense only after 13th century since we have the written acts, before that there's less evidence about the nature of the conquest). The royal crown sometimes gives such border territories to various individuals or groups to take care of them, and thus expand the kingdom. For instance, in Maramures/Maramoros, an act (1445) mention the possessions of some local knezes which owned their lands from the immemorial times as they were given the lands in forests and inhabited mountainous places. They cleared and took care of those lands and the Hungarian king recognized their possession. In 13th century the Teuton knights are settled in the deserted land of Burzenland (note: these mentions do not support the extermist hypotheses that these lands were really uninhabited, the acts which confirm the Teuton ownership mention clearly they are given the lands but also their inhabitants: homines, qui terram ipsam inhabitabant). In the same 13th century, in Sibiu/Hermannstadt area the Germans are settled in an Insula Christiana in a deserted land (in illo solo deserto). Stelian Brezeanu has several studies on medieval Transylvania (mostly focused on the analysis of toponyms, but not only) where he tries to discover the ethnical, social and political realities of those centuries. The advancement of gyep and the colonization/administration of terrae desertae are among the subjects covered by his work.

 

But what really interest me: was Transylvania part of the Kingdom or -as Romanian historians see- was a vassal state?

Depends. There are moments when Transylvania didn't exist as a political entity (so can't be called a state) but weren't fully part of the Hungarian kingdom, there were periods when Transylvania was fully integrated into the Hungarian kingdom, and also periods when Transylvania existed as an autonomous state (principality) but in vassalage to a greater power.

The Romanian historiography is more complex than what you seem to think 

 



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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 08:30
Originally posted by Chilbudios

But what really interest me: was Transylvania part of the Kingdom or -as Romanian historians see- was a vassal state?

Depends. There are moments when Transylvania didn't exist as a political entity (so can't be called a state) but weren't fully part of the Hungarian kingdom, there were periods when Transylvania was fully integrated into the Hungarian kingdom, and also periods when Transylvania existed as an autonomous state (principality) but in vassalage to a greater power.

The Romanian historiography is more complex than what you seem to think 

Since I can't speak or read Romanian the Internet is my main source on this issue. And I usually find statements like this: Transylvania was never part of the Hungatrian Kingdom till 1867. etc. It is completely believable that professional historians had more soffisticated views than this.

By the way I excluded the Principalty era in my question and tried concentrate medieval Transylvania. (1526 is chosen as an ending date of medieval Hungarian history)
 
When you said "Transylvania didn't exist as a political entity (so can't be called a state) but weren't fully part of the Hungarian kingdom" you mean there were areas outside the county system?
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 19:35
When you said "Transylvania didn't exist as a political entity (so can't be called a state) but weren't fully part of the Hungarian kingdom" you mean there were areas outside the county system?
Outside the gyep and kapu, as terrae desertae - to me these are equivalent with outside the Hungarian kingdom. With seemingly no royal, or royal-obedient administration, no control, what exactly makes these peripherical territories Hungarian possessions?
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 02:53
Originally posted by Chilbudios

When you said "Transylvania didn't exist as a political entity (so can't be called a state) but weren't fully part of the Hungarian kingdom" you mean there were areas outside the county system?
Outside the gyep and kapu, as terrae desertae - to me these are equivalent with outside the Hungarian kingdom. With seemingly no royal, or royal-obedient administration, no control, what exactly makes these peripherical territories Hungarian possessions?
The gyepelve (beyond the gyep, but inside the border) was not without control. It was part of an artificial defense system, a buffer zone to slow down enemy incursions. A special group, the speculatores was in charge to oversee this territory.

Edited by Raider - 30-May-2006 at 02:53
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 10:36
Originally posted by Raider

The gyepelve (beyond the gyep, but inside the border) was not without control. It was part of an artificial defense system, a buffer zone to slow down enemy incursions. A special group, the speculatores was in charge to oversee this territory.
I wasn't aware of an "special group" of speculatores in Hungarian documents. So I attempted to find what can be found about them (so far I could only browse some online materials):
 
http://web.axelero.hu/vasiszem/2000/01/zsoldos.htm
Reading documentary excerpts like maior speculatorum, qui de possessionatis iobagionibus castri esse debet and spiculatores nostri, qui inter castra Viuar et Borostyan vocata residencias et possessiones haberent vel habere dignoscerentur (I know only a handful of Hungarian words, so I don't understand very well what it's the conclusion of the Hungarian author) it seems these speculatores/spiculatores (I'll address this alternation later) live in an administrated area (with iobagiones, residencias et possessiones), and as they are subjects to the Hungarian king it's no longer possible to have that unadministrated space (terra deserta) from Hungarian crown's point of view. The king knows these territories are taken care of. In this context, how can be some of the diplomas (like that given to Teutons for Burzenland) justified (how come the residencias et possessiones turn into desertum)?
Also, none of them seems to be located in the Transylvanian territories where the Hungarian kingdom expanded.
 
http://mudrac.ffzg.hr/~njovanov/skrxml.html#section17.32
There is a writing from 1790 (in Latin) which also gives some excerpts (I'm not sure if they are quotes or approximate quotes/paraphrases) and concludes the status of speculatores as guards and explorers at the border of the Hungarian kingdom. For now, the same objections as above apply.
 
Now let's talk about the alternation. In the second material I noticed spiculatores, vel etiam speculatores appellantur. In none of these excerpts I haven't met the evidence that they are indeed refering to the same thing (each diploma seems to be consistent in using only one denomination throughout its text), or that there is a trivial misspelling/confusion (though it could be).
Moreover, spiculatores seem to be related to spicula - spike, so they could be some spear/lance-bearers rather than border guards/scouts. I ran into this interesting text:
http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/edicta/wooldridge/armes_a.htm about a later definition from a different context, France, 1606: "Et partant au lieu qu'anciennement ils eussent peu raisonnablement estre dits en Latin Sagittarij ou Arcubalistarij, on les pourroit present appeler hastati, car quant ce mot Spiculatores, il conuient aux seuls cent gentils-hommes de la maison du Roy portans l'Espieu, & de les dire Laterones, ne Satellites, ne custodes, comme aucuns veulent, le premier d'iceux mots n'exprime l'energie du Franois Archer, le second ne le represente aucunement, & le tiers ne satisfait qu' ceste adiection de la garde, quand on dit Archer de la garde, voyez Arc". As you can see, here spiculatores are a body of spearmen in the service of the king. I don't know what were they in 13-14th century Hungary or whether spiculatores and speculatores refer to the same border guards (or even if any of those terms refers to that, at all). I can only see it as a hypothesis, but with not solid evidence for it. Abusing the career of this term in Roman and Medieval Europe one can say speculatores are likely to be some border guards, yet they as a permanent body and more, inhabiting and regularily patrolling territories outside Hungarian kingdom are not supported by evidences (at least, so far - you're welcome to bring more evidences on this topic).
 
So let's say that there were indeed some border guards (spiculatores, speculatores or named somehow else) in those solitudines. How would they maintain control? What evidences are that they did more than being guards for the Hungarian border (gyep) or scouts, that they manifested their authority over local communities or even local structures of power. How deep in non-Hungarian territories was the guarding and scouting done (what was the width of this buffer)?
I'd also like to bring an example. Roman limes on lower Danube. As you may know the defensive system of the limes was not a single line of fortifications. On lower Danube, each fortification on the right side of Danube had a pair across the river. Moreover, the Roman fortifications and roads were expanded deeper in Barbaricum, outside the limes, for instance in southern Moldavia. However, neither the contemporary Roman literature, nor the nowadays opinions and maps do not see these territories as part of the Roman Empire. My question is: how is the defensive system of the Hungarian border (gyep) different, i.e. in the sense that would allow us to label this alleged "buffer" as a Hungarian possession?


Edited by Chilbudios - 30-May-2006 at 10:40
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 19:07
    

I hope we can continuate here the subjects of Transylvania's cneziates and voivodates.


I found on Madgearu's pages this:


Ch. 3. The Principality of the Someşul Mic valley. The fortresses. The inhabitants

Several fortresses were discovered in the territory mastered by Gelou. Some of them were ascribed to the period studied here.

1. Dăbca

This fortress is usually considered as the residence of Gelou. A careful analysis of the stratigraphy shows that there are no certain proofs for its dating since the 9th century. The objects found could be dated during all the 10th century. The single certain date is the destruction of the first period at the beginning of the 11th century (with the occasion of the war led by King Stephen I). The first period of the fortress could be ascribed to the period of Gelou, but this fact is only probable, because we do not know findings dated only before the Hungarian invasion. However, the Slavic origin of the name Dăbca suggests that the fortress was erected before the Hungarian conquest. Moreover, the building technique has analogies in the 9th century Moravia. The problem of the chronology of this site remains open.

2. Cluj-Mănăştur

This fortress had three phases. It is sure that the second was destroyed by the Petcheneg raid in 1068, but we do not know its beginning. The inside settlement has a very poor inventory. This means that here was only a refuge fortress. The pottery could be dated since the 9th century, but also since the next. In the most ancient level were found pots with grooved neck brought in Transylvania by Kavars and Hungarians in the 10th century (such pots were also found at Dăbca). The single precisely dated object is a Hungarian pendant from the first half of the 10th century. Unfortunately, the context of its discovery is not known. A ceramic type specific for the 11th century does not appear in the first phase. This could mean that the first phase was dated only during the 10th century, but its beginning is unclear. The fortress was not destroyed in the first phase. On the other hand, the second phase could be ascribed to the period after the conquest of King Stephen I (1002-1003). Unlike Dăbca, this fortress was not burned in that war.

3. Moigrad, Ortelec, Zalnoc

The fortress of Moigrad was dated in the 9th-10th centuries because its building technique, but there are no findings. Its Slavic name suggests a date before the Hungarian conquest. However, the location shows that this fortress could belong first to duke Menumorout. From GH it results that Gelou had no control over the zone of Porţile Meseşului. This strategic point was quickly conquered by the Hungarians (GH, ch. 22). Moigrad is placed at the eastern exit of the pass. In the western part was researched another fortress, at Ortelec (now, in the town Zalău). There were found ceramic fragments from the 9th-10th centuries in the fortress area. After a fire, the place was used for a cemetery dated in the 11th-12th centuries. It is very probable that both Moigrad and Ortelec were destroyed in 1068. Their beginning is too unknown. The fortress discovered at Zalnoc belongs to the same group, which could be put in relation with the principality of Menumorout. Their mission was to defend the crossing point from Transylvania and also the way used for salt trade. Some discoveries from Zalău and Sălacea are suggesting the using of this way since the 9th century. Therefore, there is a possibility to date these three fortresses in the 9th century.

4.Şirioara

This fortress seems to be dated like Dăbca. The destruction of the first phase could be put in relation with the attack of Stephen I, while the second phase ended in 1068. As like as for the other sites, we could not give a precise terminus post quem for the first phase. The findings are very scarce.

Therefore, the chronology of all these fortresses is still unclear for the 10th century. This means that we could not be sure if they were built before the first Hungarian invasions. No one could have been a residence fortress, because the settlements consist only from poor huts.

5. Castrum Clus

GH said that Gelou had a fortress near the river Someş. The relation suggests that he want to reach Cluj. The problem is that the fortress of Cluj-Mănăştur could not be considered a residence for a ruler. Castrum Clus is mentioned in documents since 1173. This fortified settlement could not be located on the hill Mănăştur, because at the same time there was a monastery on that site. It seems that castrum Clus was in the downtown, in the area of the former Roman city. K. Horedt supposed that here was also the residence of Gelou. The early Hungarian graves found at Cluj could support this theory. If this is right, then this fortress had the mission to defend the same salt road controlled by Moigrad.

6. The principality

The area of the territory owned by Gelou is not precisely known. However, it could be supposed that the salt mines from Turda, Ocna Dejului, Cojocna, Sic were included. The salt was very important in the early Middle Ages and its possession was the purpose of the power exerted by Gelou or by other rulers. The population consisted by Romanians and Slavs.

This principality appeared in the circumstances created after the fall of the Avar power. Bulgaria extended a kind of domination in southern Transylvania, up to the Mureş river, in the zone of other salt mines. Near Alba Iulia it was discovered a group of settlements and cemeteries dated in the second half of the 9th century that have some analogies in the Lower Danubian area. The fine polished gray ceramic (Dridu B type) was found in Transylvania only in the small area between Alba Iulia and Sebeş and also in a few points in southeastern Transylvania. These findings were interpreted as proofs for a Bulgarian domination in the area nearby Alba Iulia. Its goal was the control over the salt mines and over the trade made by the river Mureş. In this zone were also found weapons and spurs of Frankish origin. It seems that Alba Iulia was the centre of a territory subjected to Bulgaria until the Hungarian offensive towards east.

Bulgaria did not control the northwestern part of Transylvania. This allowed the evolvement of a free principality. We should remember here that GH said that Gelou dominium tenebat. He was a free ruler.

The existence of the Romanian and Slavic population attested by GH is proved by the survival of some ancient names of rivers (Someş, Criş, Mureş, Ampoi). Linguistics shows that the Western Mountains were a region of strong preservation of the Romanic people during the migration period. In some places in these mountains it was found a pottery of Roman descent dating in the 8th-9th centuries. An accurate research of the highlands could bring important and unexpected data about the Romanian continuity in Transylvania. The settlement of Albeşti (near Sighişoara) shows that the higher and wooden areas preserved in better conditions the Roman traditions. In the region where Gelou's principality is located it was spread a ceramic type made at the fast wheel, of Roman descent, which disappeared in the most of the Romanian space after the 6th Century.

However, only the research of several cemeteries would let us know more about the territory owned by Gelou.



Conclusions

A critical study of GH shows that this source contains several true facts, mixed with confusions and anachronistic records. Some events are confirmed by archaeology. The Anonymous Notary wrote a very valuable source for the history of the early medieval Transylvania. Some of our historical interpretations are different from the general accepted points of view: the date of the first Hungarian invasions in Transylvania, the name of the conqueror, the chronology of the fortresses.

http://www.geocities.com/amadgearu/notary.htm






Now I'm going to translate fragments from another work of Madgearu, which is photocopied in PDF:


THE VOIVODATE OF MENUMOROUT IN THE LIGHT OF RECENT RESEARCHES

...
From ethnical point of view, some settlements in Crisana (the region of Romania at the border with Hungary) could be attribuited to Slavs, on the cgharacteristic pottery (hand made). The most important early Slav site is Lazuri. On the other hand, the romanic population could be identified on the fast-weel pottery found at Berea, Culciu Mare, Lazuri and other sites. It was recently demonstrated that this kind of pottery suvived in Transylvania and surrounding areas and that it was herited from Antiquity by romanic people....


A Romanian philologist advanced the theory that Menumorout's name ( ) is Romanian, its real form being Marmorot (deriving from noun marmura). Anyway, is certain that the name transmited by Anonimous was beared by local nobility, because late documents, of 13-15th century, mention in Crisana the Marouth family. First document, from 1261, is about a certain Cyrill, son of Almus of Marouth.
...


The center of Menumorut's voivodate was Biharea, where the archaeological researches confirmed the existence of a earth-wall fortress of 9-10th century. It was rectangular (150 x 115 m). On its place existed succesive settlements, datable begining with 3-4th century until 11-113th century.

...
Two earth-wall fortifications, similar to Biharea, have been identified at Pncota and Zarand, Arad county. It was browsed 11-12th century pottery.


Other fortification, acording to Anonimous, was at Zotmar (Satu Mare). Is possible that the oldest form of this toponym to be from Romanian Satu Mare (big village)...

Another fortification which could have belonged to the voivodate of Menumorut was at Mediesu Aurit, east of Satu Mare. An act from 1377 mention that this fortress was taken from Romanians in a period which could be placed in the 11th century. It was identified on land as n earth-wall which was later superposed by the stone-fortress in 14th century.

...
It could be suposed that the voivodate of Crisana keeped its existence after the defeat of Menumorut, untill the territorial unification of Steven I (arround 1002, Steven has subjugated the voivodate of Gyla with the center at Alba Iulia).

The South part was occupied by the Banat voivodate, probably at the end of 10th century, as Legenda Sancti Gerardi says.
...
There is not information about the internal organization of this voivodate which became known to us just because oposed to Hungarian agression at the begining of 10th century.
http://www.geocities.com/amadgearu/menumorut.PDF

......................

This is the end of translation. I bolded the last paragraph because I have seen that some believe that voivodates could have not existed if they are not documentary mentioned. probably, if GH didn't existed, Chilbudios would sayed that what the archaeologists discovered at Biharea doesn't prove the existence of a voivod of cneaz.



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  Quote Timotheus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 00:07
LOL For me, "Medieval Transylvania == Vlad the Impaler != Dracula" and that is roughly the extent of my knowledge. Very interesting topic!
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 04:43
For me, "Medieval Transylvania == Vlad the Impaler != Dracula" and that is roughly the extent of my knowledge. Very interesting topic!


Vlad the Impaler was prince of Wallachia, not of Transylvania.

Bram Stoker's book is pure fiction. Vlad the Impaler was a prince who just tried some extreme methods to put order with the Principality's imvaders (Ottomans) and internal delapidators, beggers etc.

The impaling aspects are not his most important characteristics, he was a brave voivod, a founder of churches and monasteries.

The name Draculea is not linked with some ferocious behaviour but with its apartnence at a military order, of Dragon.

Some resources:

http://www.royalty.nu/Europe/Balkan/Dracula.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_III_Dracula

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 06:58

Now I'm going to translate fragments from another work of Madgearu, which is photocopied in PDF:

THE VOIVODATE OF MENUMOROUT IN THE LIGHT OF RECENT RESEARCHES


You conveniently avoided to mention many other etymologies on Menumorout, or that in his opinion Biharea is the only settlement which can be assigned to Menumorout with certainty.

This is the end of translation. I bolded the last paragraph because I have seen that some believe that voivodates could have not existed if they are not documentary mentioned. probably, if GH didn't existed, Chilbudios would sayed that what the archaeologists discovered at Biharea doesn't prove the existence of a voivod of cneaz.

You have to learn to take a more flexible attitude and to understand historians can make some valid and well-justified points but sometimes also more hazardous ones. Also, you should read more extensively before drawing your own conclusions.

Al. Madgearu - for instance - has a series of works on the chronicle of Anonymous and on the alleged Transylvanian political entities where he attempts to synchronize this written source with other sources. Sometimes he has persuassive and admirable arguments, but we have to be aware of his declared purpose and consequently of his possible bias.
However, in this case, the mention of "voivodat" in his works has a justification (though not a very solid one). As Madgearu himself notes in a study named "Geneza si evolutia voievodatului Banatean din secolul al X-lea":

Originally posted by Madgearu


Desi Notarul Anonim il denumeste "dux" pe Glad, ni se pare mai potrivita folosirea denumirii de "voievodat", care a intrat in obisnuinta. Termenul de "formatiune social-politica" sau "prestatala" este prea vag, iar cel de "ducat" trimite la o forma de organizare tipic apuseana, care nu are nici o legatura cu realitatile de aici. Este adevarat ca tot Notarul Anonim a consemnat (in cap. 13) existenta termenului "duca" in limba vorbita de locuitorii din zona Hung-Zemplin. In acest caz se impune insa cercetarea atenta a originii denumirii, fiindca forma ei nu pare latina, ci bizantina (medio-greaca). Implicatiile acestei etimologii ar putea fi cu mult mai complexe decat s-ar putea banui la prima vedere.
As you can see he uses this term as a convention (because of common usage as he argues) to avoid other versions which he considers misleading. Yet, as I already argued on the other thread I find this term misleading, too.
I'll enrich Madgearu's consideration with the following: Anonymous mentions a lot of "dukes" - of Hungarians, of Bulgarians, of Scythians, of Ruthenians, of Cumans, Arpad, Almus, Menumorout, Salanus, Keanus (magnus dux), Glad, Gelou, etc.. For Madgearu's purpose, I find the equivocation of the term "dux" with various other terms harmful to a fair approach on this source because it changes the original view of the Hungarian chronicler.

St. Brezeanu in "O istorie a Bizantului" (A history of the Byzantium) arguing about the 10th century Transylvania's space names these characters "duci" (dukes) and interprets the testimony of GH as a mentality, a belief in a subordination of this area to the political and religious influence of the Constantinople. He also characterizes the autochtonous culture of 10th-11th century as a "inceput de organizare politico-militara a populatiilor romanilor si slavilor, care coexista in acelasi spatiu" (the beginning of a political and military organization of the Romanians and the Slavs). Nothing about voivods, nothing about knyazs.
More relevant on the topic is Brezeanu's study "Inceputurile romanilor si maghiarilor in Transilvania. Traditie savanta si memorie populara medievala" (The beginnings of Romanians and Hungarians in Transylvania. Medieval scholarly tradition and folk memory). The land of Gelou is "ducat" (dukedom) and "tara ultrasilvana" (land/terra ultrasilvana). Gelou and Glad are "dukes". Again, not voivods, not knyazs.

 As you can see, Brezeanu doesn't subscribe to Madgearu's "common usage". So much about voivodship in GH.



Edited by Chilbudios - 05-Oct-2006 at 07:06
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  Quote unicorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 08:20
I think that all the parties involved in this dispute a) ignore (not always with ill-intent but mostly by inadapted patterns of thought) the state of facts in the early Middle-Age Europe. Thus they tend to attribute/request the validity of late (educated) historiography resources of late-Middle Ages for sources of the epoch. This is of course wrong. b) tend to over- or under-estimate the personal flaws and biases of those from whom we have some testimonies left c) most times people seem to think that contradictory testimonies are unreliable. Paradoxically, two contradictory testimonies CAN be reliable IF we try to empathise with the pattern of thought of those who issued them.

Some states of facts :

Early Middle-Age Europe was very disorganized and grossly lacking resources for administration, infrastructure, even economy.
Economy was so poor in metals that I can remember of such testimonies :

- Charlemagne was uncapable to settle a capital until late in his reign because he was obliged to appeal to an itinerant capital in order to be able to prelevate and consume on the spot the feodal redevences in nature (that is, people didn't pay taxes in coin even to the emperor, but in products, so he needed to go from here to there to get them).
- Gold was so rare that "Besant" (on a feodal blason), that is, a disc of gold, was originating from the fact that Crusaders who pillaged Bizance used to stick golden besants (nomismas) on their shields. Having besants on the blason in late Middle Ages meant that someone in the ascendance of the noble was a Crusader.
- Written resources relied on hearsay and were extremely distorted. Paper was still to be introduced, pergament was tremendously expensive. The vast majority of the populations, including nobles and clerics, was illiterate.
- Feodal allegiance was most often a pro-forma thing except for a direct way of the lord to be able to enforce it. Many times people considered (or boasted) that x or y is a vassal whilst x or y proudly stated that they are independent and sovereign. Sometimes as many as 3 vassalages were claimed by various rulers about the same place at the same time and ironically they even didn't care to get in conflict for it.
- People did not have a national mentality. The subject of a (say) croate leader was deemed "croate" by that leader. Instead, if (say) Byzance was holding hommage liege from the croatian, a byzantine writer would have "naturally" deemed the very same subject as "Greek".
- There was still a popular mentality. Lords were sometimes of very different national origin than the people they ruled upon, yet they called themselves "ruler of x people" not "the y nation's ruler of x". Diocletian was from Illyria yet he was "Roman emperor". Somehow, even if (say) a croatian and a greek were both "byzantine", a "hungarian" remained as such unless (say) he became part of the Komnene dinasty. Then, he became Byzantine too.
- The linguistic issue. Large migrations occurred and large teritories had very variable lordship and ownage. Somehow by a coutume consensus, the territory was deemed to be belonging to the largest linguistic group until eventually something very deep changed in the population. Yet official (chancellary) language could be for centuries other than the one of the population. For centuries Britain used French as official language and some monarchs had anything else but English blood. Yet they were monarchs of England and never called themselves French even if they owned immense parts of France (larger than the nominal possesions of the French king).
Yet this could go to the very opposite direction. Kanute was a Scandinavian king (yet he was of Polish blood too) but ruled England (amongst other territories), even though the size of the British possesions immaginably overcame all the other territories he nominally controlled (especially in respect of population numbers). Charlemagne named himself Roman, not French emperor. The source of the Russian royalty was ironically of Byzantine claim to such extent that they took over the title "Caesar" (czar) and the very bicephale eagle as emblem. Rulers of heteroclyte territories were somewhere in the mix, especially when their land ownership changed and grew up. In those days it was not a matter of linguistic nor national allegiance but of prestige and political interest. It could take very different directions for two nations which evolved from quite the same direction. Nominally, Hungarian kings were vassals of Byzance, to such extent that actually St. Stephen's crown looks very much like a Kaisarikion (Byzantine Caesar's Stemmata). Yet, very opposite to the Russian Czars, they did all the efforts to emancipate from this situation. Explanation is obvious : Hungarians were neighbouring a Byzantine empire in decay. Russians were proud to claim Byzantine descent of their aristocracy opposite to a dissapeared Byzance and a rising Turkish empire.

These said, I am astonished how scarce is the effort done to assimilate and integrate conceptions derived from the historiography of the time using a more empathic way of thought, whilst it became quite trendy to do so for the later Middle Ages. I will try to ellaborate upon consequences for the given problem, a bit later :)


At corpus non terminatur cogitatione, nec cogitatio corpore (Spinoza, Etica)
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 08:50
You conveniently avoided to mention many other etymologies on Menumorout, or that in his opinion Biharea is the only settlement which can be assigned to Menumorout with certainty.


I don't have time to translate everything.


I'll enrich Madgearu's consideration with the followin


A question: you are among that historians who
"can make some valid and well-justified points but sometimes also more hazardous ones" or not?

As you can see, Brezeanu doesn't subscribe to Madgearu's "common usage". So much about voivodship in GH.


Let's make abstraction of using terms like voivodate or kniezat. What kind of political entities were the ones of Menumorut and Gelou?


These said, I am astonished how scarce is the effort done to assimilate and integrate conceptions derived from the historiography of the time using a more empathic way of thought, whilst it became quite trendy to do so for the later Middle Ages.


You are saying that we have to see the things with the eyes of a medieval man? To reconstruct his "universe"? This is more useful for sociology perhaps.

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 08:51
Originally posted by unicorn

Paradoxically, two contradictory testimonies CAN be reliable IF we try to empathise with the pattern of thought of those who issued them.
Well, it depends what do you understand by "reliable". If we agree the sources cannot be understood outside a pattern a thought they suddenly may become unreliable due to several reasons:
a) we can't decypher that pattern of thought - the content of the source becomes meaningless
b) even if we decypher it we notice a non-empyrical attitude - the content becomes a non-reliable reflection of the reality it was supposed to describe
 
Your list is interesting so I'll address few comments on it:
 
- Gold was so rare that "Besant" (on a feodal blason), that is, a disc of gold, was originating from the fact that Crusaders who pillaged Bizance used to stick golden besants (nomismas) on their shields. Having besants on the blason in late Middle Ages meant that someone in the ascendance of the noble was a Crusader.
Actually the medieval coinage developed mainly on silver, especially since 11th-12th centuries when such mines started to be exploited heavily. Before that salt and stone were much more appreciated mineral resources.
 
Feodal allegiance was most often a pro-forma thing except for a direct way of the lord to be able to enforce it. Many times people considered (or boasted) that x or y is a vassal whilst x or y proudly stated that they are independent and sovereign. Sometimes as many as 3 vassalages were claimed by various rulers about the same place at the same time and ironically they even didn't care to get in conflict for it.
Actually in modern historiographies the vassalages are not always infered from simple claims made in acts or diplomas. A nominal vassalage is directly evidenced only by a specific oath (the rituals differ from area to area, from epoch, to epoch). Otherwise, the actions of a vassal (supporting or not his sovereign) determine as much his status. Of course, there are sometimes two sides of a coin, when a powerful entity claims itself sovereign on a smaller one, but the smaller one considers itself independent. If there's evidence, usually such things are pointed out.
 
People did not have a national mentality. The subject of a (say) croate leader was deemed "croate" by that leader. Instead, if (say) Byzance was holding hommage liege from the croatian, a byzantine writer would have "naturally" deemed the very same subject as "Greek".
This is often discussed in modern historiographies, particularily for  the issues we were debating. The "Greeks" (as you mentioned them) may often be the Orthodox Bulgarians or other entities under the Byzantine cultural influence (particularily Orthodox christianity).
 
Somehow by a coutume consensus, the territory was deemed to be belonging to the largest linguistic group until eventually something very deep changed in the population.
I don't think the Bulgars, Avars or even Hungarians (to issue some of the political owners of territories in Transylvania) had such "consensus" problems. The territory was conquered by sword, so they had it, as simple as that Smile
 
Large migrations occurred and large teritories had very variable lordship and ownage.
I believe most of the migrations were rather not-numerous. 
 
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 09:31
Originally posted by Menumorut

I don't have time to translate everything.
Well, then don't translate at all. Some people may think Madgearu supports the hypothesis Menumorut is a "Romanian" name, which would be obviously false.
 
A question: you are among that historians who
"can make some valid and well-justified points but sometimes also more hazardous ones" or not?
Ask in my fanclub LOL
 
Let's make abstraction of using terms like voivodate or kniezat. What kind of political entities were the ones of Menumorut and Gelou?
What every decent scholar told you: we don't know. You quoted Madgearu with "There is not information about the internal organization of this voivodate" - what is left unclear to you in this sentence?
 
This is more useful for sociology perhaps.
Quod erat demonstrandum
 
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 05-Oct-2006 at 09:31
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 10:12
Well, then don't translate at all. Some people may think Madgearu supports the hypothesis Menumorut is a "Romanian" name, which would be obviously false.


I translated that part because seemed the most acceptable for me. Also, is possbile that a connection between Menumorout's and Maramures' names' origins exists.

As you can see here:

the marble carriers in Romania are not far from Menumorut's siege.



Ask in my fanclub


I dont know who you are.



What every decent scholar told you: we don't know. You quoted Madgearu with "There is not information about the internal organization of this voivodate" - what is left unclear to you in this sentence?


I didnt' asked to know. This negation atitude is useless. Even we don't know about Menumorut's organization, we may supose some things. How much extended his territory and others. Some things can be deduced. Ever heard of Sherlock Holmes?



    
    
    
    

Edited by Menumorut - 05-Oct-2006 at 10:14

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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 18:33
Senzational Archaeological discovery at Alba Iulia



12 October 2006

A team of archaeologists have discovered yesterday morning, in a suburban locality of Alba Iulia municipium, tens of graves of 10th century, before the Hungarian invasion, with unicate pieces for the Transylvania area.

According to the warden of the National Museum of Alba Iulia, Gabriel Rustoiu, the funerary ensamble, of an inestimable historical importance, is part of a medieval cemetery. The last diggings made at Pclisa produced over 70 graves of 10th century offering new information. The graves were having inside glass beads, knives, bracelets, ear rings in bronze or silver and three crosses.


http://www.gandul.info/articol_17283/descoperire_arheologica_de_senzatie_la_alba_iulia.html
    

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