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Medieval Transylvania

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  Quote Orderic Vitalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Medieval Transylvania
    Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 01:00
I just want to direct readers to an article I recently posted to the Medievalists.net website - Nations and Denominations in Transylvania (13th - 16th Century), by Ioan-Aurel Pop, from Tolerance and Intolerance in Historical Perspective, edited by Csaba Lévai and Vasile Vese (University of Pisa, 2003)

You can access it here
Visit our site www.medievalists.net for articles, videos and more about the Middle Ages
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  Quote Tomis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2008 at 17:43

Hello everyone...this is my first post.

 

I don't have much personal knowledge to add to this discussion, but I did come across and interesting analysis made by American professor Kelley L. Ross (Vlach Connection). If you have time please take a look and tell us what you think.

 

 
 
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2008 at 07:39
[QUOTE=Menumorut] Some genetic data about the three peoples of Transylvania:

...old Thracian populations might have made an important contribution to the foundation of the modern genetic Romanian pool...
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/search/label/Romania


...the haplogroup P*(xM173) in Szekler samples, which may reflect a Central Asian connection, and high frequency of haplogroup J in both Szeklers and Hungarians. MDS analysis based on haplogroup frequency values, confirms that modern Hungarian and Szekler populations are genetically closely related, and similar to populations from Central Europe and the Balkans.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/search/label/Hungarians




...The Transylvanian Saxons, called like that since medieval times, are representing a western population with unknown origin, settled in the Arch of Romanian Carpathian Mountains in the earliest of the 12th century. Historical and dialectal studies strongly suggest that they do not originate from Saxony, but more probably from the Mosel riversides (Rhine affluent) and also from the Eifel Mountains Valley (present territory of Luxembourg...

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/search/label/Germanic


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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 13:59
I can read little Bulgarian, I'll try my best to understand that page Tongue Thank you!
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 13:57
Yes.
 As far as I remember you can read Bulgarian -- here is the link about vulhva from wiki:
 
 
It has two meaning -- 1. magus and 2. wise man. Word magician (Volshebnik in slavonic languages) probably also come from the same root.
 
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 13:42
Yes, as far as I know they were only females. I know what you refer to Wink and yes, it is a possibility.
Anyway, the Romanian language dictionary gives the etymology sl. vluhvu, bg. vlahva (this implies two phenonmena, the loss of "h" and then a metathesis between the vowel and the "l" sound). Is the latter a Bulgarian word? What does it mean?
The loss of "h" not an unusual phenomenon. In Romanian occurs sometimes e.g. elicopter means helicopter, elen means Hellene. That's why I said that depending of the real pronouncation of that "h", its loss could be justified. 


Edited by Chilbudios - 22-Feb-2008 at 13:43
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 13:24
I cannot judge your logic due to lack of required education, but this looks resonable. The only thing, how do you explain this disappearance of h? Is there any similar evolutions? In any case, returning to your initial question, this word exists in Balkan slavs too. Were these valvas only females? Cause another etymology comes to mind Wink
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 12:54
The Romanian is actually like the Russian ы. Etymologically it can come into Romanian from basically any vowel, e.g. a parallel vowel evolution o-> can be found in the word fntnă from the Latin fontana. So I guess it could work a volhv -> *volv (I'm not sure though what was the original pronounciation of that lhv and if the h could drop like a loss of aspiration or something) -> *vlv.
 
If it helps, in Romanian the word is polysemantic. The other meaning is "agitation, stir".
 
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 12:40
Bulgarian as Russian has vluhv (влъхв). I think it is common for Slavonic languages or came to Russian with slavonic Bible (those three wise guys who came to see born Jesus were called volhvi in slavonic translation). These valvas looks more like Vilas or samovilas. But I am not sure if vila can be transfered linguistically to valva. Why don't you consider that word Volhv actually came from word Vlach to Slavs? I think vlachs looked pretty much magicians to slavs Smile. BTW,there is a pretty funny but rather interesting Russian fantasy book "Osenniy Lis" (Autumn Fox) about a Vlachian guy.  
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 09:56
Anton, is there a Bulgarian word with similar phonetism and meaning? I'm asking because in Romanian folklore there's a certain type of fairy/witch (reigning in nature - waters, woods, etc.) called vlvă and has some interesting phonetical (the term as it is in Romanian is in feminine form, we can reconstruct a masculine as *vlv) and semantical similarities with the Russian term, but AFAIK the strong contacts between Romanians and Russians are much later, so if it is a loanword from Slavic I'd expect it to be borrowed from Serbs or Bulgarians.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 09:31
exactly. Smile 
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 02:30
Actually, I just realized that was saying the same thing as you. Smile
 
Sorry for the misleading post. Yes, plural from volhv (mag, wizard) is volhvy. This is what you are saying, right?
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 02:24

Volhv is a wizard, plural from volhv is volhvy.

Plural from voloh (ethnicity) is volohi.
 
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 02:19
I might be wrong but I cheked one version of Nestor here: http://www.pushkinskijdom.ru/Default.aspx?tabid=4869
When he speaks about Valahs he call them Volohi when he speaks about mags he call them volhvi or volosvi, volisvov etc. He always put V at the end. All this however does not change the fact that Poles, Croats and Chezch call (or called earlier) Italians "volohi"
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 01:49

So plural of "volhv" is "volohi"?

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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 01:35

You are wrong Anton, at least in Russian it's also volohi. Just take a look at the Primary Chronicle of Nestor.

Volhv means pagan priest or wizard.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2008 at 10:48
that might be too old reply to a post written in 2005 (beggining of this thread) but it might be interesting to some of you. Plural of biblean "volhv" in slavonic languages will be "volhvi" but not "volohi" as Gerik claimed. However, volohy does not necesserily mean "Vlach". For instance, in Jirecek I read that Poles, Croats, Chezhs and Slovenians call Italians "volohy".
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2008 at 00:32
The next information is about Transylvania's territory during the Roman period but it helps understand why a signifiant Latinized population remained in the area of former Roman Dacia.




Transylvanias Roman past visible from the air

By Norman Hammond, Archaeology Correspondent



TRANSYLVANIA means, to most of us, vampire counts in Gothic castles, but centuries before this province of Romania acquired its sanguinary reputation it was a peaceful province of the Roman Empire, literally the land beyond the forest. A team from Glasgow University has now used aerial archaeology to locate Roman farms and forts in Transylvania, showing an impressive level of population density and organisation.



Writing in the journal Archaeological Prospection, William Hanson and Ionana A. Oltean, a Romanian archaeologist at Glasgow, report that the dry summer of 2000 yielded a large number of parchmarks visible from the air. These are areas of restricted crop growth indicating the presence of buried stone walls, which make for a shallower, drier soil and plants that are paler than their fellows on wetter areas nearby.

Their survey covered part of the Mures basin and the Hateg plain to the south, in the heartland of the ancient Dacian kingdom conquered by the Roman Emperor Trajan. At Alba Iulia, the legionary fortress of Apulum, they detected civil settlement outside the walls, now threatened by modern urban development; at Cigmau, the Roman Germisara, a complex pattern of settlement was revealed.

The Roman fort sits on a hilly spur, and is long, narrow and irregular, unlike the usual rectangular plan; buildings identified inside it include the headquarters, what was probably the commanders house, and a large granary at least 20 metres (63ft) long. The civilian settlement or vicus outside has been known about for a long time, but the parchmarks revealed numerous stone buildings, running for nearly 400 meters. A previously unknown Roman villa was found at Oarda, and is one of the few examples known in Dacia with multiple buildings. There are several ranges grouped around what seems to have been a large courtyard. Another previously unknown villa was found at Vintu de Jos in the next small valley to the southwest, where there seems to have been a preceding native settlement of oval houses with sunken floors.

The investigators, whose flying programme was funded by the Leverhulme Trust, were surprised at the lack of positive cropmarks, where crops grow higher over loose, wet deposits such as ditch fill. One answer may be that the Mures valley has wide areas of alluvium, where the difference between undisturbed soils and refilled features is low, a phenomenon noted in aerial surveys in Britain also.

The restrictions imposed by the former communist regime mean that aerial archaeology in Romania is in its infancy: the results of the Glasgow team, and the encouraging precedents set by Otto Braasch and James Pickering in the former East Germany, suggest that the Roman occupation of Transylvania will prove to have been as highly organised as in the core provinces of the Empire.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_...ticle852705.ece

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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2007 at 14:21
Wikipedia is only describing the text of Gesta.

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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2007 at 14:06
Please, let  Wikipedia behind you.
 
I have found other interesting sources/etc , I'll write them too, and 'll try to answer your questions.
 
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