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Topic ClosedCan Arabs and Turks Unite?

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Can Arabs and Turks Unite?
    Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 09:48

Originally posted by erci



Barbar do not make comments you know nothing about! I don't give any damn fly about what you think because you're not from Turkey.you wanna leave with Islamic rules, fine! but leave Turkey alone!

Don't worry, I never make comments I know nothing about. I don't live in Turkey, that doesn't mean I know nothing about Turkey. Yes I wanna live with Islamic rules, ALHAMDULILLAH. But I don't leave Turkey alone, if she restricts her citizens to live with Islamic rules. It should be up to a person, not the government, to decide if he/she wants to live with this rules.  

 

Either make a history or become a history.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 09:48

Mortaza,

Ataturk already put on shame people like you years ago saying :

" Muhtac oldugun kudret damarlarndaki asil kanda mevcuttur "

" The might you need flows with the noble blood running through your veins ! "

Crap, not an argument, I am not sure what Atatrk feel,  If  he  saw Turks now.

 do not say a word after all you've tried to drag Turks through mud. Every nation has corrupted people but I'm proud of my ancestors, their deeds, the honor they carried for all of their lifetime. I can not discuss something with someone just offended Turks.

Yes, Yes. I am proud of them too.But we are not them.Lets think it otherway.

Do our ancestor will also proud of us(Proud turks)?

Arabs stabbed back us in WWI in the middle of everything. A front close to be won was lost, what are you talking about ?

are you joking? what  type of win you mean?  bandit groups of  arabs overcome turks, and you think we will overcome brits, when they were most  powerful, I dont think, Brits would not scare from our noble blood.

By the way, I dont think we have  a noble blood, infact  I dont think our blood   is much different than others.

Every word have their  time. That words  were beatiful for 1930, not 2005.

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 10:02
Originally posted by LeftEyeNine

 

 

Oh, you can betray ALMIGHTY ALLAH while you can't betray a national hero????????? 

If rejecting unification with Arabs is betraying Allah, you're just being ridiculous. Go and learn what Islam is about. Jews say that they are the only mighty race, you just sounded like that. Rotten..

Strange that Arabs did not have a national hero at least to "betray".

If you get that from my comments, you are just being rediculuos. Go and open your eyes wide and read my post and the quote from erci's. I was talking about banning of the hijab thing. 

Arabs do have national hero who is the greatest all through the human history: MUHAMMAD (SAWS)

Strange you don't know this.

BTW, I'm not Arab.

 

Either make a history or become a history.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 11:37
Muhammed is a Prophet sen to all humankind. He is not an Arab hero. You can not take it that way.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 11:39

Mortaza

Those Brits were strong, because they had sons that found themselves honorable, not like you, humiliating his own nation.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 12:01


We were not betrayed by the kurds, kurds are just some ethnicity in Turkey.

They were trying to built their own country too, like armenians and arabs.


Ok what does Iraq have to do with a talk on arabs and turks? The kurds there are our problem only if they continue support for terrorism, etc.. as for ethnicalities in Turkey, most of them wouldnt even think of such a stupid thing..


Young Turks, yes they did betray the Ottomans, but what was the other option to anyone living in that period?

why dont you give this options to arab? but only Turks.

Arabs selling out and joining forces to take over and kill Ottomans; England, France, Greece slicing up the empire into pieces that they'd have..

Their betrayal and turanic ideas were before these.


Take a look at history, either you've lost it or the book is getting to your head.. you're wrong.


he Young Turks solution wasnt the perfect one, nor was it correct or anything but every-one faught for that 'one' cause and that was to throw away enemies, from within and without of the place we call our country today.

And within enemies were also Turk, I cant see your hate to turkish race as a whole, but only arabs.


ehm.. enemies within; means religious idiots and sects that are against any form of development. If they weren't put under control, and totaly banned from ruling of country we would be more or less just like iran today. And a little note to you I am a Turk.



Now idiolized they are, yep

Because, people have not much information about them. Not because people like their ideas.


but infact it is not them as people, but its those people that faught and died fighting and building this country that they symbolize.


Ok sorry people I am just translating into turkish what I have said in english which this guy quoted, as he totaly didnt understand what I said.
'Ataturk ve yandaslarini idolestirir iken, aslinda onlari sahis olarak degil, ama sembolik olarak idolestiriyoruz genel olarak, bu sekilde bizler icin (gelecek nesiller icin) o zamanlar savasip olmus insanlari bir nevi aniyoruz."
Tabi bunu anliyabilecegini sanmiyorum. Cunku gorus ve tavirlarin ile ne oldugun acikca ortada, lutfen bir daha da soylediklerimi anlamadan bolup yorum atma cunku cok bos birsey.
(Of course I doubt that you can understand this as from your views and actions its pretty obvious what you are, and next time dont quote and cut up what I write without understanding it please, becuase it doesnt make sense)


Isnt it weird, Enver killed at russia? at least arab were fighting over their land. what this guy doing at russia, is complately have no relation with Ottomans.


- You can read about Enver, although he has done some good things which I think was modernization to some extent of the late ottoman army, but his last days were a little strange, I dont know too much about him, part that I have seen a film done by akulin portraying him as a super spy.. by a russian writer called B.Akulin.. posted some pics here at an earlier date.

And as for land and Arabs,just out of interest what land do you say that is Turkish? How long does it take for the land to belong to some peoples? 50, 100, 200, 500, 800, 1000 years? Maybe Turks should migrate back to central asia?

Here are some examples;
- Greeks lived under ottoman rule for about 400 years.. are they greeks?
- Cyprus 308 years, are they Cypriots?
- How long have the turks been in anatolia?, how long have various arabs, and other ethnicities of the area have been under Turkish rule in one form or the other, not only ottoman, mixing with turks..

So in essence the arab you talk about maybe a person with a relative that is turkic.. so this arab supposedly close to Turks, to gain control over land an resources with the support of some non-muslim foreigners kills his own people.. I call that betraying.






Edited by baracuda
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 12:54
Originally posted by LeftEyeNine

This is the most ridiculous stuff I've ever seen..

I avoid any and every Arab who stabbed back us, selling their souls to the British. Remember your history, Turk!..

I'd prefer dying instead of seeing the day such a day can get real..

sick, sick, sick

   Glad I supsribed to this forum, at least I've seen those kind of Turks they talk about here. Turkish Hologans

   When are you gowing to grow? and yet, calling for turks to remember their history? Dude give me a break. If we are as racist as you are, generalizing and holding our rotten history of nations struggles, we would already blamed all turks and mongols for their savage killings of millions in Persia, a week of rape and murder of 80,000 in Baghdad. But that is the difference, you continue swimming in that era of 1918. Cotinue my friend. 80 years already past and no contribution Ataturk, you, and others who act in that malice way had inputted to the history of Turkey, excepting signing the betrayel, betrayel song. Ugh! As far I remember, Turkey still set with us here, in the 3rd world classification. While Malaysia, who is proud of its Muslim hertiage, and has no resources except wood and minning has grown and continue to grow passing all of us.

And I forgot,  Turks in 1918 were not angels. Stop drawing your picture of either white or black.



Edited by ok ge
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 13:05

Originally posted by baracuda

Arabs, for most countries their success will go on until the oil lasts which wont be too long..

Excuse me, are all Arabs in the Gulf? duh!

Most Arabs live under $1/day!

Originally posted by baracuda


And as for land and Arabs,just out of interest what land do you say that is Turkish? How long does it take for the land to belong to some peoples? 50, 100, 200, 500, 800, 1000 years? Maybe Turks should migrate back to central asia?

Even in a million year, If Arabs are the one living there, speaking Arabic, and believe their land is an Arab land, then it is Arabic.

Otherwise under your analysis, there is no Persian land, it's ours, there is no Central Asian land of Turkmenistan, it is Arab land because Abbasyid ruled it for centuries, and there is not Cyprus, Arabs ruled too for centruies. That is not a criteria to adopt for sure.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 13:30

Guys calm down, both of you.

Turks should first united before they unite with Arabic or other Islamic world.

Ok, a question; Who should be the Caliphate if there is an unifing? Or should there be a caliph if there's a such unifing?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 14:13

if a revolt against an unjust rulers called a betrayal then Turks Betrayed Arabs first. but we Arabs dont use such terms to describe such events. not in the past and not now, the kuwaiti government and the media dont even consider the Iraqis as betryers, even so its clear that Iraq was supported 100% by Kuwait in the 80s

See, we cannot unite with Arab states. They even betray each other. USA forces entered Iraq from the south, not from the north. Lets leave its historical background for now. Lets turn our face to modern foreign relationships of Turkey. We have peaceful and even friendly relationships with lots of Arab states, mostly the far ones like Tunusia or Jordan, but we have some problems with our neighboring Arab states, Syria, main supporter of PKK for years, and Iraq, before the American invasion, they were massacring Turkmens and Kurds, now, they are totally against the Turkmens and Turkish policies...

And Arabs once betrayed the Ottoman Empire but this isnt the issue now. Please hold on to our original discussion...

your point is fact but not all Arab fight with British if you take a look in the iraq front in WWI you will see all iraqi sutheren tribe fought with your people,they decleared Jihhad in Najaf and khadhimya, I am proud because my grandfathers fought against English with Turk,English commander Taounsend said they were so brave(iraqis) then don,t make it general thing.

Of course. Southern Iraqis adn actually shias were always loyal to Ottomans unlike the other shiks.

Excuse me, but are you serious? Since when, when the occupied arise to demand their freedom, they betray their oppressor?

Ottoman Empire didnt opress them. But this isnt the issue. I dont consider the revolts of Greeks, Serbs or any other non-Anatolian Christian mibority against Ottomans as betrayel. At least they believed they were fighting against Muslim/nonbeliever oppresors or they were believing they were fighting for freedom. So they were kinda freedomfighters, especially Serbs, I dont get into the discussion if they were right or wrong, but the point is with their purpose.

While a Serb or Greek was believing he was revolting for the sake of his religion or freedom, an Arab knew he was fighting for golden British coins. Of course not all, bewaring of generalizations, but this cant change the fact.

with a sharp knife than the Turk raping you

Com'on, no Turk would rape you...

Oh, you can betray ALMIGHTY ALLAH while you can't betray a national hero????????? 

Well, as I said before, I dont agree with every action our country took against hijab, I dont care if a woman wears bikinis or hijab. It belongs to individual freedom and shouldnt be judged.

But this also cant be considered as betraying God. All people dont have to believe God the same way you do.

they must be part of a Jihad organisation

Bah, they arent. And I believe they should be free of wearing hijab in universities. But if we detect someone who is with the extremist religious organizations, they should be at least exiled...

Yes I wanna live with Islamic rules, ALHAMDULILLAH

Of course you may, noone said a word about this. Religious rules are for the person and his own ideology. But religious state law, is proved to be out of order.

It should be up to a person, not the government, to decide if he/she wants to live with this rules.  

Agreed

By the way, I dont think we have  a noble blood, infact  I dont think our blood   is much different than others.

It was symbolic, not matter of science. And it was a fine statement of its age. Please guys, hold on to the topic and dont make me repeat myself again.

Can Arabs and Turks unite, was the original discussion...



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 14:33

They cant, I think we are agree about this. It is complately unrealistic. Arabs country have problem with each other, and If I am not wrong, everything is not fine between Turkic countries too.

For Alliance, I dont think there is much problem with it. Well maybe some with syria, but I dont think we have any problem with other.

Sent merchant each other, this will help both people more than an union. Trade, trade and trade.

Everyone need money more than union.

 

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 14:57

A union today is impossible. Better establish mini-size unions and later maybe merge those if they can be assembled.

Like, a union for Arab Gulf countries (actually a one currency will be pushed by 2007) and a union between couple central asian countries, a union of northern Maghrib countries and so on.

I agree with Mortaza that trade union is a primery force now rather than conquest. However, that trade union should be pushed toward fiscal policy union, slowly, currency union, slowly, government system union, and here we are, a confederate.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 15:03

Well I am only talking about money. I heard you arabs have more than us

Most Arabs live under $1/day!

Or am I wrong?

For such improvements, Muslim countries should improve self and their democracy.

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 15:31

That is a good point. You cannot ask for cooperation between a democratic country and a dictatorship. However, you can always push for reform using the trade card



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 16:50
Originally posted by Mortaza

Mortaza, as most Turks in this forum would agree you're the Mr nonsense here

Cheap words.

.Read what I wrote! I have no problem with women covering their heads.My problem is with karacarsaf which you support!

we both live in Turkey. We both know meaning of this words.

hijab or turban law as i know is the only solution for Turkey.this law should stay as it is.it's none of my bussines who's wearing it or who's not but as oguzoglu said it has become a political issue.WE have to control it.

we both know meaning of turban, It has no relation with karacarsaf. It llooks like you  are refusing what you said, You  said ban of turban should stay like this, and now you say, your problem is with carsaf.

And I didnt say, I support carsaf, Noone of my relatives uses carsaf.I am indifferen against it.Unlike you, It is not my job,what people wear,

Mr burning- turning  man?



You don't understand what I mean do you?I was talking about two different things I know the difference between turban and karacarsaf.yes we should ban turban from schools and where is it restricted.I'm not against who use it.they are free in streets or in their homes I don't care.I'm happy with restriction of turban law(understand?)It's been almost 100 years we made these laws and thanks to people like you we are still discussing it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 20:58

Originally posted by LeftEyeNine

Arabs stabbed back us in WWI in the middle of everything. A front close to be won was lost, what are you talking about ?

    Sorry, off topic. How many of those intellectuals we have in turkey?

Originally posted by erci

I'm happy with restriction of turban law(understand?)It's been almost 100 years we made these laws and thanks to people like you we are still discussing it.

Erci my friend, it doesnt matter if the Turba, or Hijab, or headscarf is banned since 100 years ago or 400 years ago. Does the law make any intelligent sense? if it does, then sure. If it doesn't then time is not a factor.



Edited by ok ge
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 22:06

ok

to bracuda

the Ottoman at that time weren't "Friends" and weren't "Brothers", They were one thing and that was a TYRANT RULERS who didnt treat Arabs as Muslims and didnt treat them as Humans. a revolt was gonna happen sooner or later. with or without the british.

and the Arabs know that the British are not there because they love the Arabs or care about them. The British were serving their own British Empire. the thing is that the Arabs wanted to get red of the Unjust Rulers and the British as the strongest Empire at that time wanted to destroy the dying Ottoman Empire,

Arabs had no interest in Anadolia or Istanbul, Arabs wanted to live free from the Ottomans, they didnt care about what happens to Turkish speaking lands, Arabs cared about their own lands and their own freedom from the Turks.

Obviously the British used that feeling of the Arabs toward the Ottomans and Arabs didnt mind to do whatever it takes to get rid of the Turks.

just to give you an example of what happened reacently,  the Ottoman's Rule in Arabic lands were like Saddam's rule in Southern Iraq. the Shiea Iraqis Revolted against Saddam in the 90s, the Weak saddam started killing them to stop the revolution. so he kept them like this utile the American Came ( who didnt come out of love to the iraqis), the Shiea Iraqis cooperated with the Americans, WHY? because the the Shiea Iraqis wanted to do whatever it takes to get rid of Saddam, even if their own country will be under foriegn Occupation.

the situation was similar of the Arabs were under the Ottomans rule.

 

 to Oguzoglu

that was an example that we arabs dont use such terms for such events, but then you are selecting sentences and replaying totally irrelevant replays and misunderstand what i wrote, man read the posts then replay, i know that you are having fun but dont make a foul of your self and read the posts and replay to them not to something you make up yourself and replay to it, if so then do that in the Historical Amusement forum not here.

to LeftEyeNine

Mortaza didnt Humiliate Turks or anything, AFAIK he is proud of many of Attatruks Reforms and disagree with some too.

Attartuk was not Perfect and his reforms weren't Perfect. some where good for the Turks and some weren't.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 22:23

First off, let me get something straight:

The Turks think that they were betrayed by the Arabs because the Arabs sided with the British instead of with the Turks? The British promised the Arabs freedom from Ottoman Rule, who would not take up this offer of freedom? Anyone who is oppressed will try to remove the opressor. Too bad the British did not keep up with there promise though.

I am guessing that when Kemel gained power and established the Turkish state, and banning the califate and other aspects of muslim culture in public, this might of been kind of thouight as a betrayal to islam in the arabs minds? This could be were some of the dislike towards Kemel started.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 23:22
ok

to bracuda

the Ottoman at that time weren't "Friends" and weren't "Brothers", They were one thing and that was a TYRANT RULERS who didnt treat Arabs as Muslims and didnt treat them as Humans. a revolt was gonna happen sooner or later. with or without the british.

and the Arabs know that the British are not there because they love the Arabs or care about them. The British were serving their own British Empire. the thing is that the Arabs wanted to get red of the Unjust Rulers and the British as the strongest Empire at that time wanted to destroy the dying Ottoman Empire,

Arabs had no interest in Anadolia or Istanbul, Arabs wanted to live free from the Ottomans, they didnt care about what happens to Turkish speaking lands, Arabs cared about their own lands and their own freedom from the Turks.

Obviously the British used that feeling of the Arabs toward the Ottomans and Arabs didnt mind to do whatever it takes to get rid of the Turks.

just to give you an example of what happened reacently, the Ottoman's Rule in Arabic lands were like Saddam's rule in Southern Iraq. the Shiea Iraqis Revolted against Saddam in the 90s, the Weak saddam started killing them to stop the revolution. so he kept them like this utile the American Came ( who didnt come out of love to the iraqis), the Shiea Iraqis cooperated with the Americans, WHY? because the the Shiea Iraqis wanted to do whatever it takes to get rid of Saddam, even if their own country will be under foriegn Occupation.

the situation was similar of the Arabs were under the Ottomans rule.


Absolutely no comment, as its worthless to comment to such a absurd equation.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 23:25

Well, just the truth that nothing was black and white.

We Arabs fought for freedom, but it doesnt mean that the Sherrief agreement with the English was only for freedom. Obviously he wanted to expand his control. But he cannot tell his people "fight for me, so i can control Hijaz, Jordan, Syrian and Iraq". No one will listen. So he played on the freedom tones.

Same goes to Turks. They were not the just Islamic rulers and the angels. They had a lot of mistakes especially as young turks ascended to the thrown and controlled the Ottoman empire. From Jamal Pasha to all other mistakes done on the worst time, the war time, it did contribute to fueling anti-turks sentiment. BUT at the same time, we cannot make it as the tyrant empire of unjust rulers who massacred us...that is too much..

Basically, a politics game.  Ottomans didn't enter the war for Islam, but for regaining lands they lost with the aid of central powers. In fact, Ottomans entered the war by Enver Pasha without the Sultan permission. They decided to attack the Russian fleet. Was very corrupt for sure.

Also, the Sherrief went in for politics, nothing for freedom or Islam.

SO STOP SIMPLIFYING STUFF TOO NAIIVE

 



Edited by ok ge
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