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Crimes of Crusaders

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Crimes of Crusaders
    Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 05:13
Originally posted by ok ge

Originally posted by Raider

1) Were the crusaders worse than any army of that age?

Yes, in different words, the crusaders army were worst than Salahdin's army and all other Muslim armies during the defense time. Other posts explained why in details.

Originally posted by Raider

2) Were the christian way of warfare crueler than the muslim's?

Still talking about crusade, no doubt that crusade ,representing christians, they were not only uncivilized and savage but they have contributed nothing even to their fellow christian. For more details, I advice the PBS's (an American non-profit TV station of education) produced 3 hours movie "Islam-Empire of Faith" http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=1822722#r elated

I think it would be better if we compare the crusaders to other christian armies and christian european warfare to muslim warfare in general. So we can see if the crusaders broke their own christian code of conduct and can compare the general norms of warfare in the two civilizations.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 06:43
Originally posted by ok ge

Originally posted by Constantine XI

In the 640s they sacked Caesarea in Palestine. Let's fast forward to the destruction they wreaked when they utterly destroyed and pillaged Thessaloniki in the 9th century, or destroyed Amorium in the same century and erased its population from the Earth. When they retook Edessa they also wiped out most of the Frankish (Crusader) population

Well Saladin and his Army still way better than any crusading army. I don't see to where are you heading to saying he is a good man only. SHOW me what his army did? period.


It is a well known fact that Saladin continued a policy of raiding and invasion. And why only focus on Saladin, are you afraid to venture beyond one tiny time period and one charismatic individual because it might confirm my point that both sides did horrific things to one another in war? The more you insist on confining the discussion to one individual, the more this seems to be the case.


Last, do you know stating tailored piece of information is as bad as deceiving? Maybe you didn't mean to do so. Anyhow, lemme enlighten you. When Muslim troops routed the Byzantines on Upon this, the Byzantine emperor fled and the population fled of Amorium too, yet there was still a part of his army in Amorium.

The Muslim troops entered Angora and then headed for Amorium, which they reached ten days later and laid siege to.

Besieging Amorium

The blockade started. The Byzantine emperor sent a messenger to the caliph apologizing for the ruin his army had caused in his earlier invasion of upper syria  lands and pledged that he would build the city of Zibatra that he had demolished and release the Muslim captives. But the caliph refused to come to terms and did not allow the messenger to return before the Muslims had conquered Amorium.

Therefore my dearest friend, Army soldiers are not civilians, and destroying the captured city is a retaliation to destorying Zibatra except, they didn't had to kill inhabitants as the Byzantines did.


Actually you are once again incorrect, you failed to prove they didn't kill the citizens of the city, which they infact did. They even took 40 of the city's most distinguished citizens back to Iraq and then executed them when they refused to convert to Islam. The Orthodox Church actually commemorates this atrocity with the Feast of the Fourty Martyrs, an especially solemn ceremony in Byzantine times. Hardly what you would call civilized, it was barbaric plain and simple and proves my point that armies in this period were as bad as eachother. You also failed to refute my other examples, which just vindicates my point. Also, don't accuse me of stating tailored information, I provided valid examples which you responded to be leaving out critical information, which is hypocritical. I keep refuting your incorrect statements, which you respond to by trumping up a triviality which has less and less to do with the topic, which I am then forced to correct.

I should also point out I am in no way trying to vindicate what the Crusaders did, as I have stated in other threads I believe them to be a pack of quite bloodthirsty men with wordly amibitions driving many of them. I just refuse to sit back and let someone try and say that their enemies were faultless, or gloss over their atrocities by shoving one charismatic individual in my face to distract attention.



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  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 09:34

Treatment of Dhimmis

Islamic armies conquer Damascus, Hams and the remaining towns of Syria and according to the terms of the treaty they realize some amount of tax for the protection of the life and property of the citizens and the defense of the country (634 A.D., within two years after Prophet Muhammad SAW). But later the Muslim leaders received news that Heraclius had brought a big army which he was anxious to bring against the Muslims. Therefore they decided to bring together their own scattered armies in various conquered towns to concentrate at one point to face the hordes of Heraclius with joint effort. So in keeping with this decision our armies started leaving the towns of Hams, Damascus and other towns. Khalid in Hams, Abu Ubaidah in Damascus and other generals in other towns addressed the citizens thus:

"The money or monies we had realized from you was meant for the protection of your lives and properties, and also to defend your lands from outside aggression. But we are sorry to inform you that we are parting with you and since we would not be able to protect and defend you, we are returning the amounts of taxes collected from you."

To this the citizens said in reply:

"God be with you and bring you back victorious. Your governance and your justice and equity have enamored us, since the Romans in spite of being our coreligionists, we have bitter experience of their oppression and tyranny. By God! If they had been in your position they would not have returned a copper out of the taxes collected from us. Rather, they would have taken away everything they could from here belonging to us."

Even in our so-called civilized period it is like that. If an army has to vacate a station, it does not leave there anything that the enemy could utilize to advantage. But is there a single example of the practice of the victorious armies of Our civilization, in the entire history of mankind. By God! If I had no faith in lofty values, and did not believe in their success or like the politicians of the modern age, considered it necessary to keep morals and principles dominated by the political interests, I would have said that the leaders of our armies stuck to lofty values and love of principles due to their unawareness and simplicity. But it is a fact that they were really true Believers and did not like to say things they could not put into practice.

Sheikh-al-Islam Ibn Taimiyah Liberated Jews and Christians

When the Tartars made a sudden assault on Syria and took countless men from Muslims, Jews and Christians as prisoners, Sheikh-al-Islam Ibn-e-Taimiyah talked to the Tartar Chief about the release of the prisoners. The Chief gave his assent for the release of the Muslim prisoners but refused to do so in the case of the Jews and the Christians. But Sheikh-al-Islam did not agree and insisted on the release of the Jews and the Christians, who, he told him, were the Zimmis (Dhimmis) of the Islamic state and were bound to them. They could not let even one individual remain in captivity whether he belonged to their own community or from those living with them under a covenant.

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/sibai6.html

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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 09:41

 Its ridiculous to condemn the christian west of being barbaric and uncivilised when the muslim east was quite obviously just as bad. The medieval age is a time of mass executions, tortures, persecution, and were cities are sacked mercilessly.

 John Julius Norwich : The apogee p49 siege of Amorium.

 "Even then the garrison fought on courageously; but at last its commander sent out three of his officers with the local bishop, offering to deliver up the city in return for the promise of safe conduct to all who wished to leave. Mutasim refused, insisting on unconditional surrender."

 "Many of the inhabitants took refuge in a large church, in which they were promptly burned alive by the conquerors; others, taken captive and led off into slavery, were slaugtered when the army's water supply ran low, or were left to die of thirst in the desert."

 Seems to me the muslims wernt all that civilised after all, I know this flies in the face of centuries of propaganda, but you'll have to get over it.

  "Well Saladin and his Army still way better than any crusading army. I don't see to where are you heading to saying he is a good man only. SHOW me what his army did? period."

 It should be pointed out that Richard the Lionheart defeated Saladin at Arsuf and then outside Jaffa. So please learn something about history before you make yourself look even more silly.

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 10:05
Originally posted by Tobodai

But the Muslims have been given an over glamorous and chivalrous role.  They fought and killed too.  Obviously though we should allow them the greater leeway since they were defending their homeland by the attacks of a bunch of crazed religious fanatics. 

Actually they weren't defending their homeland. they were defending the territory conquered by the Arabs and subsequently taken over by Turkish (Kurdish?) tribes.

Also a lot maybe most of the Crusaders weren't on the whole 'crazed religious fanatics' but pretty materialist seekers after feudal-style estates.

The most sensible and progressive guys involved with the crusades were Frederick II and Malek-el-Khamil the sultan of Egypt, who did a deal under which Frederick II effectively bought the Kingdom of Jerusalem from Malek. (Treaty of Jaffa, 1229).

 

 

 

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  Quote great_hunnic_empire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 10:14

This is true and written by byzantine historian Anna Komnen that Bohemond has roasted Turkish dead bodies at front of peoples. Its also written that having bath and wash their bodies with Turkish bloods would bless their sins!!!!!!!!
___________________________________________________

 

Persons of every age, rank, and degree, took the cross. When men wanted faith, women left them in disgust and followed the holy banner, carrying infants in their arms. Sometimes a rustic shod his oxen like horses, and placed his whole family in a cart. Whenever a castle was sighted the poor creatures inquired if it was Jerusalem. Monks threw off their gowns and enrolled themselves as warriors. "Women appeared in arms in the midst of warriors," says Michaud, "prostitution not being forgotten among the austerities of penance." [180:2] "The moral fabric of Europe," says Mills, "was convulsed; the relations and charities of life were broken; society appeared to be dissolved." [180:3]

Walter the penniless, a gentleman of Burgundy, whose poverty was more remarkable than his military abilities, led the first body, which consisted of twenty thousand foot, and only eight horsemen. [180:4] They swept through Hungary and entered Bulgaria, where they were regarded as so many savage invaders, and refused supplies. Walter's mob turned their arms against the unfriendly Christians, but they were miserably beaten. Hundreds of them fled into a church, trusting that the Bulgarians would not spill blood in the house of God. The sanctity of the place was so far respected, but the edifice was set on fire, and many perished in the flames, while others were killed in leaping from the roof. Walter escaped with a few associates, and found refuge at Constantinople. [180:5]

Peter the Hermit led the second host of forty thousand [180:6] men, women and children, of all nations and languages. Arriving at Malleville they avenged their precursors by assaulting the town, slaying seven thousand of the inhabitants, and abandoning themselves to "every species of grossness and libertinism." According to Mills "virgin modesty was no protection," and "conjugal virtue no safeguard" [181:7] against these sanctified soldiers of the cross. King Carloman marched an army against them, and they fled. Many were drowned in the Save, on the other side of which the survivors were attacked by a large body of Turcomans. The French suffered heavily, but the Germans and Lorrainers avenged them; and Peter offered as a bloody sacrifice to God the few prisoners who remained after the battle.

Bulgaria was a desert before Peter's horde. The duke had gone to the fortified town of Nyssa, and the inhabitants had retreated into the forests. A band of Germans set fire to some houses near Nyssa, and the people rushed upon the rear of the Crusaders, avenging their wrongs with massacre and plunder. In turn the city was assaulted, but the Crusaders were repulsed with a loss of ten thousand. Peter lost heart and burst into tears, but some robuster lieutenants collected his scattered followers; and destitute of arms and money, and unable to procure provisions, they marched in a famishing state to Philipopolis, where Peter's eloquence obtained them assistance. Thence they marched to Constantinople, but the emperor prudently refused them admission, and ordered them to remain in Greece. He supplied them with provisions, and as soon as they recovered strength they "repaid his generosity by deeds of flagitiousness on his people. Palaces and churches were plundered to afford them means of intoxication and excess." [181:8] Alexius shipped them across the Bosphorus, where they recommenced their excesses. Michaud says that they "committed crimes which made nature shudder." [181:9] Peter lost all control over them, and returned to Constantinople. The French were distinguished for ferocity. They killed children at the breast, scattered their limbs in the air, and carried their ravages to the very walls of Nice. They took the castle of Xerigord, and slaughtered the Turkish garrison. But the Sultan attacked them with fifteen thousand men. Their leader, Reginald, with some companions, embraced Islamism. The rest persuaded Walter the Penniless to lead them, and soon met with the reward of their crimes. The Turks exterminated them, and made a pyramid of their bones

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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 11:08

 Does this vendetta against the crusaders know no bounds?

 The Arabs go around conquering like mad in the name of their god and its ok, the Crusaders come along and conquer a strip of territory and they are savages....

 Sounds suspiciously like double-standards to me, the Arabs and then Muslims as a whole conquered territory like it was no ones business for centuries, undoubtedly slaughtering many a person along the way and frequently invaded the territory of others for the sake of conquest.

 How is this so different to what the Crusaders did? whereas the Arab and muslim conquests recieve no criticism, the Crusaders for taking what was only a thin strip of territory recieves nothing but criticism.

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 12:08
Originally posted by Heraclius

 Does this vendetta against the crusaders know no bounds?

 The Arabs go around conquering like mad in the name of their god and its ok, the Crusaders come along and conquer a strip of territory and they are savages....

 Sounds suspiciously like double-standards to me, the Arabs and then Muslims as a whole conquered territory like it was no ones business for centuries, undoubtedly slaughtering many a person along the way and frequently invaded the territory of others for the sake of conquest.

 How is this so different to what the Crusaders did? whereas the Arab and muslim conquests recieve no criticism, the Crusaders for taking what was only a thin strip of territory recieves nothing but criticism.

Heraclius:

You seem angry enough, so why not start a thread on the Crimes of Mohammedans in exterminating Christianity and pagan religion in North Africa; conducting the widespread slave trade in all their territories; overthrowing established governments and societies from Spain to India and operating as pirate states in the mediterranean for a couple of hundred years.

Oh, and while we are at it, how about that battle of Tours.....Invading a land that is the origin of a lot of the world's best wines by a bunch of non alcohol drinkers.  THAT took some nerve! 

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  Quote great_hunnic_empire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 12:24
The fourth wave issued from England, France, Flanders and Lorraine. Mills calls them "another herd of wild and desperate savages." Their leaders were a goat and a goose, [182:5] who were thought to be inspired by the Holy Ghost. The Turks being far off, they took to murdering the Jews, a crime which gratified at once their avarice and their fanaticism. Cologne was the first city they stained with blood. Thousands of Jews were massacred and pillaged in the towns on the banks of the Rhine and Moselle. Seven hundred were slaughtered at Mayence, despite the protests of the venerable metropolitan. The Bishops of Trves and Worms protected the Jews on condition of their apostacy. Some noble spirits disdained the terms and slew themselves in the palace of the Bishop of Worms. At Trves many Jews barricaded their houses, burnt their wealth, and perished in the flames; while in other cases "Mothers plunged the dagger into the breasts of their own children, fathers and sons destroyed each other, and women threw themselves into the Moselle." [183:6] The infernal multitude, as Mills calls them, "hurried on to the south in their usual career of carnage and rapine;" but at Memsburg their passage was opposed by an Hungarian army. It proved that "their cowardice was as abject as their boldness had been ferocious; and the Hungarians pursued them with such slaughter that the waters of the Danube were for some days red with their blood." [183:7]

Three hundred thousand Crusaders thus perished before a single city had been wrested from the infidels. Many died of famine and disease, and most of the others fell fighting against their fellow Christians.
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 12:39

Here we go again, John Julius Norwich

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 12:42
Originally posted by Heraclius

 It should be pointed out that Richard the Lionheart defeated Saladin at Arsuf and then outside Jaffa. So please learn something about history before you make yourself look even more silly.

And who ever was talking if Saladin was winning or losing. I asked for for examples of Saladin's army committing savage acts in retaliation. Are you sure you are in the right thread?



Edited by ok ge
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  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 13:11

Originally posted by ok ge

I just spent 10 minutes trying to find one example where a Muslim army captured a Christian city and slaughtered its inhabitants from the time of the prophet to the end of the last crusade. Do you have an example of that then?

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  Quote Nagyfejedelem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 13:35
During the first Crusad Coloman was the king of Hungary. Coloman gave permit to the crusaders to cross Hungary , but they plundered and massacred the unarmed population. Because of this Coloman attacked the crusader forces near the Western border and defeated them. After this accident other armies said thad Hungarians were pagans and also attacked Hungary. They were defeated. After that Colomans and leaders of the Crusad discussed succesfully about the march across in Hungary. Crusaders bought Hungarian food-products and didn't still. A big force let by Coloman controlled the marching to the Southern border. So, some of the Crusaders were cruel, some weren't. Most of the crusaders were undisciplined (mainly the poors, who wanted to be rich) and fanatical and it was the reason of theirs crimes.
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 14:08

Originally posted by Constantine XI

It is a well known fact that Saladin continued a policy of raiding and invasion

Sorry, I don't know what do you mean by well known. As I always say,Saladin fought the Christian kingdoms in the holy land to return them back. That is another issue, we are focusing here on the code of conduct for Wars.

Why don't I venture beyond Saladin and crusade?

Aren't we already doing so? or what is that all deviations we had? Can you focus please on  my question. The thread is basically Crusaders were an army of savage soldiers killing Muslims, Jews and Christians! Unless you think they killed pagans instead!  Any objection to this? Later, after confessions, we can go over excuses to justify their acts. Also, take your time listing resources. This help us to go back and read in details instead of one side of the picture.

Arabs went conquering like mad, exterminating pagans and christians from northern Africa.

Our topic is code of war conduct, not if you don't like your land to be conquered or not. Also, that was a gradual slow conversion. Egypt didn't become Muslim except after 400 years from their conquest. If we wanted a sudden conversion we could have adopted the crusade methods of just depopulating the area of their previous inhabitant and bring our people instead as it happened in Jerusalem and many other Palestinian cities. Do you understand now why we have Kurdish and Turkish tribes there who came with Saladin after the re-conquest? Because merciful crusaders depopulated the place.

Finally, a question to deviate us more away from the topic, if Muslims were as much as savage as Crusaders that time, can anyone explain why do we have Christian in the holy land since 2000 years? Spain under the treaty of Granada of 1492, couldn't stand fullfilling its requirement more than 1611 when all Muslims of Spain had to convert of leave. Now, I creatd more deviations from the topic



Edited by ok ge
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 14:46
Demonizing the Crusaders and making the Arabs appear as Peace-loving Noblemen(tm) seems to be the hight of fashion these days, but it still ridiculous from any other point of view than that of a propagandist or nationalist. Generalizations are bad, and we have already numerous displays of ignorance in this thread. Try reading up on the subject a bit instead of swallowing whole what people tell you. Further, throwing terms as 'savages' around only works to show oneself unserious and biased, and copy-pasting (without citing references at that) every post is - beside being against the board rules - a clear indication of someone not knowing much about the subject (which in itself is not bad of course, but try using your own words, asking questions, thinking, instead of just stealing from other pages).

Originally posted by ok ge


And who ever was talking if Saladin waswinning or losing. I asked for for examples of Saladin's army committing savage acts in retaliation.


There are several. For example, during the campaign that led up to Montgisard, Saladin slaughtered his Christian prisoners. After Hattin, Saladin took revenge on the Knights and had all executed as well. It is worth noticing that the Templars and knights of other orders were quite the opposite as portrayed in Kingdom of Heaven. They respected the Muslims even if they fought them (for example, a Muslim envoy was allowed to pray in a church (ex-mosque), and the Templars threw out a French nobleman who tried to throw the Muslim out), and opposite to both Christians and Muslims alike, they did neither plunder nor rape. Their sole crime at Hattin was vexing Saladin at many many occasions, defeating him in battle.

Saladin was respected for his chivalry, but that does not mean he was an angel, he was a human being and as such he could be cruel or merciless just like any other man. The funny part is that the myth about him was started by an Englishman in the 19th century - before that he was virtually unknown in the Muslim world...




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  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 14:53
actaully he was widely known in the muslim world/ are you muslim? if not how would you actually know on the heroes of the muslim world and who muslims view as a hero?.  Salah ad Din was viewed as the biggest anti - cursader by muslims. for example in egypt they still make treats in the shape of salah ad din. he is an extremely important figure in the islamic world and has been given his due respect since his death. I dont understand where you get your b/s info from. That is like saying that Caesar wasnt celerbated by westerners or by italians until someone ressurceted his image in the 19th ct. 
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 15:13

Styrbiorn, Please check the information you have. Saladin did not excute the prisnors of Hattin. To be more precise, he executed Rynald and his knights for their previous oath-break attacking Muslim pilgrimage caravans and slaughtering them despite a treaty signed already to allow them passage and ammunity.

Check: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hattin

Saladin was not respected only for being brave, but a noble person, merciful, and who forced his army to go with the war code of conduct. In fact, after conquering Jerusalem, he prevented Muslims from revenging for the massacre of their relatives and fathers 99 yeas ago.

Now, regarding Acre, here is something you can read too from Wikipedia again, the fastest to find but I can supply those interested with information from books beside the online one:

On August 11 Saladin delivered the first of the three planned payments and prisoner exchanges, but Richard rejected this because certain Christian nobles were not included. The exchange was broken off and further negotiations were unsuccessful. On August 20, Richard determined that Saladin had not kept his word, and had 2700 of the Muslim prisoners from the garrison of Acre killed, including women and children. The Muslims fought back in an attempt to prevent this, but they were defeated. On August 22 Richard and his army left the city, now fully under crusader control

and copy-pasting (without citing references at that) every post is - beside being against the board rules - a clear indication of someone not knowing much about the subject.

Oh Please, where is your link or reference?



Edited by ok ge
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 16:26
Originally posted by ok ge

Originally posted by Constantine XI

It is a well known fact that Saladin continued a policy of raiding and invasion

Sorry, I don't know what do you mean by well known. As I always say,Saladin fought the Christian kingdoms in the holy land to return them back. That is another issue, we are focusing here on the code of conduct for Wars.


You mean just like the Crusaders fought to bring the Holy Land back into the sphere of Western civilization's influence? As for conduct of the wars I have already clearly established that both sides committed atrocities, so refrain from adopting such a sanctimonious attitude. Failing to know that Muslims killed innocent people and sacked cities just goes to show how limited your understanding of warfare was during the period.


Why don't I venture beyond Saladin and crusade?

Aren't we already doing so? or what is that all deviations we had? Can you focus please on  my question. The thread is basically Crusaders were an army of savage soldiers killing Muslims, Jews and Christians! Unless you think they killed pagans instead!  Any objection to this? Later, after confessions, we can go over excuses to justify their acts. Also, take your time listing resources. This help us to go back and read in details instead of one side of the picture.



If you read carefully you will see I have already addressed your question. I have freely admitted the Crusaders were often barbaric. But you once again dodge my assertation, that both sides were a product of their times by committing wrongs, by limiting your evaluation to Saladin. Does it occur to you that the Crusades lasted at least 200 years, and Saladin wasn't in control during that whole time? And I never tried to justify ther acts. Once again I see no need to confess anything as I carry no guilt .
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 16:26
Originally posted by ok ge

Here we go again, John Julius Norwich

 He speaks infinitely more sense than you do im afraid, you may learn something from him though I wouldnt bet on it.

 Pikeshot.

 Its common knowledge already, cok gec is far to biased that if I could bring him in a time machine back and show him he still wouldnt believe me, so  I wont waste my time creating a thread about it. 

 His warped fantasy of muslims before during and after the medieval period is much more attractive than the reality I suspect  a cure for hard-headedness? ive yet to find one

A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 16:41

I think its a very valid point to bring up the original Muslim expansion to compare with the crusades.  People often concentrate on the good rather than the bad and what the Muslims did especially to Africa was major crimes that are overlooked. 

But we also must remember, who started the Crusades?  The Crusaders did.  That was was started by their aggression and thus they should not be treated favorably.  It would be like blaming hte Soviet Union for Germany invading it.  Although that is a good analogy, Soviets and Germany, both were pretty evil, though one was certianly the aggressor, and that sums up the crusades quite well i think.

"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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