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  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mongol Empires
    Posted: 24-Nov-2005 at 13:11
They were not "dissolved". They still exist now within modern Kazakhs. See www.elim.kz
They were Turkic speakers in 10th-13th centuries and they are Turkic speakers today. They live in Eastern and Central Kazakhstan, in Northern  half of Sinkiang province of China (Eastern Turkestan), and in western Mongolia today. 
Turkic language has not been changed very much since the times of Orkhon inscriptions and Codex Cumanicus. 
The "Turko-Mongols" of Genghis Khan are not related to the modern Mongols (Khalkha, Kalmucks, Buryats).  
I can provide tons of similar citations as above from many Western  books.  



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  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2005 at 16:23
Originally posted by Akskl

They were not "dissolved". They still exist now within modern Kazakhs. See www.elim.kz   


The bulk of the people moved between different tribes and clans.  A geniology of leading clans is interesting and will provide lots of useful historical data.   But you have to understand populations change, languages vary, groups gain different names...   

The steppe people were never, uniformly, "Turkish".   This doesn't draw away from the widespread and continuous stepe culture, or the large part in that cultue that various Turkish speaking people played.  You should be proud of that heratige, but to many observers blanket statements such as "they were all Turks" make tham fear that you are too blinkered to learn and they won't enter into fruitful dialog.
 
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  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2005 at 01:31
What "fruitful dialog" you are talking about when the 100% Turkic speaking groups and tribes are being called "Mongols"? All Western and other historians do know, and write in their books and papers, that all the "Secret History"  tribes were Turkic speaking, and nevertheless they senselessly continue to call them "Mongols". 

Russian censorship and chauvinistic propaganda did not allow Kazakhs and other non-Russian peoples of the ex-USSR to get information about their own history and heritage, only negative facts were allowed to know about nomads and their history. Khalkha-Mongols did not have such censorship.     

Turkic language was widespread in all territory of the Great Steppe between Danube river and the Great Wall of China. Turkic nomads were in ceaseless motion and communication with each other, so their language was uniform over thousands and thousands miles with  practically no even dialect differences.  Settled peoples lived in their lands having almost no communication with each other - that's why they developed various dialects and different languages  on their much smaller  territories.

Speculations about changing names of groups or tribes is total  nonsense.  Imagine that somebody would try to allege  that, say, Vyatichs  or Krivichs were, say, Germanic tribes in 8th century, but  then  they "disappeared", but later, some  Slav tribes "took their names", but these Slav Vyatichs and Krivichs "have absolutley nothing in common" with that "Germanic" Vyatichs and Krivichs.      




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  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2005 at 05:48
Originally posted by Akskl

What "fruitful dialog" you are talking about when the 100% Turkic speaking groups and tribes are being called "Mongols"? All Western and other historians do know, and write in their books and papers, that all the "Secret History"  tribes were Turkic speaking, and nevertheless they senselessly continue to call them "Mongols". 

I've tried to be patien, but this is arrant nonsence and fundamentally untrue.  Because you keep repeating this it is very difficult for people to take any of your other points seriously.


Russian censorship and chauvinistic propaganda did not allow Kazakhs and other non-Russian peoples of the ex-USSR to get information about their own history and heritage, only negative facts were allowed to know about nomads and their history. Khalkha-Mongols did not have such censorship.     

The fact that this happened should teach you not to over react and end up as chauvinistic in the opposite direction.  This is very easy to do.  I know, I still see frequent anti English sentiments here in Scotland, though there hasn't been any censorship for a very long time.


Turkic language was widespread in all territory of the Great Steppe between Danube river and the Great Wall of China. Turkic nomads were in ceaseless motion and communication with each other, so their language was uniform over thousands and thousands miles with  practically no even dialect differences.  Settled peoples lived in their lands having almost no communication with each other - that's why they developed various dialects and different languages  on their much smaller  territories.

This vastly over states the truth.  There were significant differenced in Turkish languages and dialects.  There were also significant numbers of steppe peoples who spoke non Turkish languages.  You also have to remember that only a few of these languages left any written records.



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  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2005 at 15:24

Genghis Khan' "Mongols" were all Turkic speaking tribes - now parts of modern Kazakhs. Please read the following paper written by author of one of the latest translations of the Secret History (I fell guilty that I did not ask his permission for posting his paper on Internet):

http://www.kyrgyz.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=263


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  Quote kuralas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2005 at 12:47
I am from Chingis kaghan's clan - Khiyat-kuralas (in Duhlat). We lived with subclan of Chingis kaghan up to Bartan bahadur. After Bartan bahadur our subclans are separated. About it speak our clan legends. Which are described in Secret histories of Mongols. I have relatives, familiar and friends - Chingishanits, niruns, darlekins, jalairs, kerei, naimans, alshin (tatar-alchi), merkits. All of them Kazakhs (turkish). 85 % of Kazakhs were former Mongols of XIII c. Not as Mongols are considered kangly, kipshaks and Semites (koja&sunak). Therefore think as 15 % not mongols turkifired 85 % of Mongols.
Niruns is a nucleus of the true Mongols.
Darlekins are true Mongols.
If niruns and darlekins also Turkish, means Mongols of Chingis kaghan's were Turkish. Word "Mongol" on Kazakh means "Mangi El" - "ETERNAL COUNTRY".

Today's Mongols consists of such tribes: Halha, Durved, Bayad, Hoton, Myangat, Zahchin, Torguud, Hotogoid, Darhad, Eeld, Barga, Dariganga, Tsahar, Harchin, Buriad, Sunit.
No niruns, no darlekins. They are pseudomongols.
They (Halha) are steal our history.

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  Quote yan. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2005 at 14:40

What language did the Mongol empire(s) write their correspondence in?

Who founded the Yuan dynasty?

Where did figures like Batmunh Dayan Khan or Altan Khan get their legitimation from?

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  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2005 at 19:18

Plano de Carpini brought a letter from Karakorum to the Pope of the Rome which begins with salutations in Turkic. The rest of the letter is in Persian ("Saracene") - this language could be understood in Rome. 

The Yuan dynasty has been founded by Kublai Khan - grandson of Genghis Khan. Marco Polo wrote that his father and uncle spoke to him in "Tartar" language. Venecians had trade ports in Crimea and in the Don river mouth for centuries, and they did know perfectly what the "Tartar" language's meaning is - the Turkic one, and only the Turkic one. There were no Khalkha Mongols on  the Black sea coast.

Interpretors between Russian envoys and one of the Altan Khans in 1600's were Kyrgyzes - Turkic speaking guys.  I have read the Russian documents about that. Genghis Khanites ruled Khalkha Mongols as same as many other peoples, but this does not mean that they were the Khalkha Mongols themselves.

   



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  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2005 at 09:26
Originally posted by Akskl


Genghis Khan' "Mongols" were all Turkic speaking trubes - now parts of modern Kazakhs. Please read the following paper written by author of one of the latest translations of the Secret History (I fell guilty that I did not ask his permission for posting his paper on Internet):

http://www.kyrgyz.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=263


Go and read this again, in it Rachewiltz specifically differenciates Turks from Mongols, particuary by their different languages.  It does not say that " Genghis Khan' "Mongols" were all Turkic speaking trubes"(sic).
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  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2005 at 09:38
Originally posted by Akskl

Plano de Carpini brought a letter from Karakorum to the Pope of the Rome which begins with salutations in Turkic. The rest of the letter is in Persian - this language could be understood in Rome.


The letter was writen by a Uighur scribe in "the languages of the Western regions" -


The Yuan dynasty has been founded by Kublai Khan - grandson of Genghis Khan. Marco Polo wrote that his father and uncle spoke to him in "Tartar" language. Venecians had trade ports in Crimea and in the Don river mouth for centuries, and they did know perfectly what the "Tartar" language's meaning is - the Turkic one, and only the Turkic one. There were no Khalkha Mongols on  the Black sea coast.

Correct. "the Tartar language" was the common tongue of the Golden Horde, by this time they had already switched to the Quipckaq tounge.


Interpretors between Russian envoys and one of the Altan Khans in 1600's were Kyrgyzes - Turkic speaking guys.  I have read the Russian documents about that.

This is 300+ years later ?


 Genghis Khanites ruled Khalkha Mongols as same as many other peoples, but this does not mean that they were the Khalkha Mongols themselves.

? why would ruling people make you become them ?

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  Quote yan. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2005 at 13:41
Originally posted by Akskl

Plano de Carpini brought a letter from Karakorum to the Pope of the Rome which begins with salutations in Turkic. The rest of the letter is in Persian - this language could be understood in Rome. 


According to Carpini, they wrote the letter once in latin and once in 'tartar' (which, if you take the title of his report into account, is just the same as Mongol for Carpini). Additionally, they provided a 'Saracen' (probably Persian) translation. Did the letters survive until present? And second, Am I wrong in assuming that this was not the only letter the Great Khans ever had written for them?

The Yuan dynasty has been founded by Kublai Khan - grandson of Genghis Khan. Marco Polo wrote that his father and uncle spoke to him in "Tartar" language. Venecians had trade ports in Crimea and in the Don river mouth for centuries, and they did know perfectly what the "Tartar" language's meaning is - the Turkic one, and only the Turkic one. There were no Khalkha Mongols on  the Black sea coast.
I hope you are aware that the Yuan dynasty never extended as far west as the Don or the Black Sea (even when, technically, the Great Khanate may have done so). Polo's reports have been put into doubt by scholars, some -with rather weak arguments though - even dispute he ever made it to China! Anyway, I guess for every European source that calls the Great Khans 'tartar' there are about ten times as much Chinese sources who call the Great Khans - guess what - Monggol, just the same name that is applied to the peoples who until today live north of the great wall.

While we're at it: Do you know who kept the Yuan seals after the fall of the Yuan dynasty?

Interpretors between Russian envoys and one of the Altan Khans in 1600's were Kyrgyzes - Turkic speaking guys.  I have read the Russian documents about that. Genghis Khanites ruled Khalkha Mongols as same as many other peoples, but this does not mean that they were the Khalkha Mongols themselves.
I was not talking about the Halha Altan Khan of the early 1600s, but about the somewhat more significant Great Khan with the same name - the one who, among other accomplishments, introduced the title of Dalai Lama. He lived about 50 years before that other Altan Khan, when Russia was way off the radar yet.

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  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2005 at 19:23

Plano de Carpini brought the letter to Pope of the Rome from Guyuk Khan, which was found by Polish monk Cyril Karalewski in 1920 in Vatican archives, photographed and sent to Masse (he was an Iranist), (sorry, I am not sure about the names spelling after their Russian spelling). Later it was translated one more time by Pelliot and published along with its Persian original (The "Saracen" language is Persian one). First lines of the letter are written in Turkic language:

By the Power of the Eternal Blue Sky We are Dalai Khan of the All Great People: Our Command.

http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus/Karpini/frame9.htm

Comment 217

217 Письмо Гуюка написано по-персидски на длинной (1 м 12 см), но узкой (20 см) бумаге, состоящей из двух склеенных кусков. В конце письма н в месте склейки листов имеются красные оттиски печати (см. прим. 151). Письмо это считалось утерянным и монголоведы строили всякие предположения о содержании его и о характере письменности. Оказалось, что выражение «по-саррацински» в данном случае следует понимать по-персидски. Письмо было обнаружено в 1920 г. в архиве Ватикана польским ученым монахом Кириллом Каралевским, сфотографировано и передано на изучение иранисту Массэ, который первый сделал перевод этого письма: Впоследствии письмо было исследовано и еще раз переведено крупнейшим монголоведом Франции Полем Пелльо, опубликовавшим персидский текст, перевод и комментарии. Так как письмо представляет большой интерес, то приводим его полностью, использовав перевод Пелльо.

Перевод письма (translation of the letter):

"Силою Вечного Неба (мы) Далай-хан всего великого народа; наш приказ (Эти строки написаны по-тюркски). (these lines are written in Turkic language) Это приказ, посланный великому папе, чтобы он его знал и понял. После того как держали совет в... области Karal, вы нам отравили просьбу и Покорности, что было услышано от ваших послов. И если вы поступаете по словам вашим, то ты, который есть великий пана, приходите вместе сами к нашей особе, чтобы каждый приказ Ясы мы вас заставили выслушать в это самое время.
И еще. Вы сказали, что если я приму крещение, то это будет хорошо; ты умно поступил, прислав к нам прошение, но мы эту твою просьбу не поняли.
И еще. Вы послали мне такие слова: "Вы взяли всю область Majar (Венгров) и Kiristan (христиан); я удивляюсь. Какая ошибка была в этом, скажите нам?" И эти твои слова мы тоже не поняли. Чингис-хан и Каан послали к обоим выслушать приказ бога. Но приказу бога эти люди не послушались. Те, с которых ты говоришь, даже держали великий совет, они показали себя высокомерными и убили наших послов, которых мы отправили. В этих землях силою вечного бога люди были убиты и уничтожены. Некоторые по приказу бога спаслись, по его единой силе. Как человек может взять и убить, как он может хватать (и заточать в темницу)? Разве так ты говорить: «я христианин, я люблю бога, я презираю и...» каким образом ты знаешь, что бог отпускает грехи и по своей благости жалует милосердие, как можешь ты знать его, потому что произносишь такие слова?

Силою бога все земли, начиная от тех, где восходит солнце, и кончая теми, где всходит, пожалованы нам. Кроме приказа бога так никто не может ничего сделать. Ныне вы должны сказать чистосердечно «мы станем вашими подданными, мы отдадим вам все свое имущество». Ты сам во главе королей, все вмеcте без исключения, придите предложить нам службу и покорность. С этого времени мы будем считать вас покорившимися. И если вы не последуете приказу бога и воспротивитесь нашим приказам, то вы станете (нашими) врагами.
Вот что Вам следует знать. А если вы поступите иначе, то разве мы знаем, что будет, одному богу это известно.
В последние дни джамада-оль-ахар года 644. (3—11 ноября 1246 г.)".

 



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2005 at 07:04

Guyuk Khan's seal on the letter sent to Pope was clearly on mongolian.  Even the beginning phrase "By the Power of the Eternal Blue Sky We are Dalai Khan of the All Great People: Our Command" was on mongolian.

Akskl: I don't believe you!

About Altan Khan:

There were two Altan Khans. Altan Khan who besieged Beijing in 1550 was a grandson of Batmunkh Khan. His given name was Ananda.

The second one was a Khalkha prince and his given name was Sholoi- Ubashi. He was also a descendant of Batmunkh Khan. He got this title "Altan" from russians.  

 

 

 



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  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2005 at 19:47
Open the link I provided and take a look yourself with your own eyes if you "don't believe" me.  Comment 217 says that first lines of the letter are written in Turkic language.  Askk somebody who can read Russian if you can't read Russian.
Read my previous posts with citations from various Western books also.  If you  "don't believe " them too - then go to library and check them yourself.
I could present many more similar citations, but  I don't have time at the moment for  this. Maybe later - I have all such places in many books I 've read already marked with adhesive bookmarks.


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  Quote kuralas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 05:59
Detective: We don't believe you!
Mongols used uygur scripts. Uygurs were Turkic. Chingis Han don't know other languages, except own language.
Niruns and darlekins were Turkic. Chingis Han was nirun. If he was nirun, then he (Chingis Han) was Turkic.

It’s really easy!!


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  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2005 at 06:30
Yan-

What is your reasoning for stating that the Yuan dynasty did not extend to the Black Sea?  All khanates initially recognized the Great Khan as their overlord, and the Great Khan was Emperor of the Yuan dynasty.  It would follow that the Yuan dynasty could claim overlordship of all khanates.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2005 at 13:34
that was only a theoretical overlordship, in fact the Golden Horde and the Chagatai Khanate were pretty much anti-Yuan dynasty, while only the ll-Khanate acknowledged the overlordship of the Yuan emperors.
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  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2005 at 21:45
Originally posted by kuralas

Detective: We don't believe you!
Mongols used uygur scripts. Uygurs were Turkic. Chingis Han don't know other languages, except own language.
Niruns and darlekins were Turkic. Chingis Han was nirun. If he was nirun, then he (Chingis Han) was Turkic.

It’s really easy!!


Actually Mongol was written in an adapted form of the uighur script, expressly developed at Temuljins orders.  Surviving texts are mongol not Turkic.
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  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2005 at 21:58
Originally posted by Akskl

Open the link I provided and take a look yourself with your own eyes if you "don't believe" me.  Comment 217 says that first lines of the letter are written in Turkic language.  Askk somebody who can read Russian if you can't read Russian.
Read my previous posts with citations from various Western books also.  If you  "don't believe " them too - then go to library and check them yourself.
I could present many more similar citations, but  I don't have time at the moment for  this. Maybe later - I have all such places in many books I 've read already marked with adhesive bookmarks.

Akskl is correct here, the letter is in Persian and Turkic (Quipchaq).  There was also a Latin  version attached.  It was deliberately prepared that way as Mongolian wasn't well known in the East.   There are several other letters to various western rulers, most are in Latin and Persian but with proper Mongolian seals to show that they were written at the command of the Khans.

Surviving documents from the Mongol states are in Mongol and associated local languages (Khitan and Chinese in China; Persian and Arabic in Persia and Iraq; Quipchaq Turkic in Ukraine; Khitan, Chinese and Uighur Turkic in Central Asia).

nb. The first Steppe Empire to leave significant writen rcords was the Quara Khitai.  The records are in Khitan , a Mongol language.  The Uighur didn't leave many records fromtheir time of power but did develope a script for their own Turkic language before the Quara Khitai.
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  Quote yan. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2005 at 06:59

As I understand it, there'd be some room for speculation if the Mongols, like the Huns, had left no written traces. But they apparently have, not only their few letters (what about the one by Arghun to the King of France btw?) and the Secret History, but much more rather profane stuff like receipts, bills, coins etc. I suppose one would have to take a deeper look into them (which I'm unable to do at the moment) to get some hints on what languages were prevalent back then, and in which areas.

Just pointing to some traditional names doesn't sound very convincing, though. By that logic, all the 'Kings' and 'Bishops' in the US would have real kings and bishops in their ancestry!

Actually, I wonder whether one day some Iranians will claim that Chinggis was Persian, based on the fact that so many primary sources were in Persian language.

Akskl is correct here, the letter is in Persian and Turkic (Quipchaq).  There was also a Latin  version attached.  It was deliberately prepared that way as Mongolian wasn't well known in the East.

(Just asking) Shouldn't that be '..in the West.'?

Plano de Carpini brought the letter to Pope of the Rome from Guyuk Khan, which was found by Polish monk Cyril Karalewski in 1920 in Vatican archives, photographed and sent to Masse (he was an Iranist), (sorry, I am not sure about the names spelling after their Russian spelling). Later it was translated one more time by Pelliot and published along with its Persian original (The "Saracen" language is Persian one). First lines of the letter are written in Turkic language:

By the Power of the Eternal Blue Sky We are Dalai Khan of the All Great People: Our Command.

Yes, I read that the 'tartar' version apparently remained in Harhorin. But even if I risk looking stupid: Isn't 'Dalai' a very mongolian word?



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