Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Europe and asia

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 11>
Author
Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 557
  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Europe and asia
    Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 11:12

 

Originally posted by warhead

"I, in turn, simply corrected you, by mentioning that Europeans had developed effective "volley rotation shooting" well before the 18th century."

 

I know they had volley rotation in the 16th century created by William, you haven't noticed the term "mastered" have you?

Spare me the semantics, bro--the system of countermarch used in the 16th century was the best method for the use of the weapons of that time.

And William didn't "create" the countermarch--this was used by the arquebusiers and musketeers of all major European armies at that time.  William developed the linear formations to counter the square and rectangular formations of the Spanish.

 

"'the pirates always manage to sit on the heights waiting for us.  Usually they hold on until evening, when our soldiers become tired.  Then they dash out... They adorn their helmets with coloured strings and animal horns of metallic colours and ghostly shapes to frighten our soldiers.'"

Peers also noted that the wako were well-drilled in Japanese swordplay:

"A distinctive feature of the wo-k'ou themselves was the Japanese swordplay employed by some of their infantry--both Japanese and Chinese who had learned their methods.  They raised and lowered their swords in unison, signalled by officers with folding fans, and wielded them so swiftly that an enemy 'could see only the flash of the weapon, not the man.'"

And, for folks who were (according to you) not very organized or disciplined, it is curious to note that Ch'i Chi-kuang went to considerable lengths to actually learn sword technique from the wako:

"Swordfighting stances from the 1588 edition of Chinese General Qi Jiguang 's Ji Xiao Xin Shu. General Ji inflicted a great defeat on the Japanese pirates in 1561 at Taizhou, capturing the leader and 1900 pows. These techniques were obtained after interrogating (ie torturing) the pirates.""

 

I'm sorry but you have said nothing about the organization of the Wo Kou, disicpline and training doesn't equal organization, or is that what your definition of organization is?

 

 

"How do you know that?"

 

They don't appear in sources. ITs EXPLICITLY  mentioned that their primary weapons are swords and ARCHERY or else Qi Ji guan would not use shields against them.

Funny, the Spanish sources from the same period mention plenty of firearms too.

 

"Hardly "invalid" my friend.

My comparison shows that well-equipped European and Asian warriors--who were both very experienced in the specific theatre they operated in--faced each other, and, in this particular case, the Europeans won.  It doesn't mean that the Japanese or Chinese didn't know how to fight--on the contrary, the Spanish had nothing but praise for the martial capabilities of the wako."

 

No its invalid because you are comparing two armies of secondary qualities and assuming that top notch troops will have the same result without any reason such assumption is invalid.

The "armies of secondary qualities" used much of the same equipment and tactics as the "top notch troops".  In some aspects of warfare (guerrilla actions, etc), they were perhaps even better than their bretheren who engaged more in set-piece battles.  This isn't rocket science, Warhead.

 

"For a group of mere "pests" they seem to have had a fairly profound impact on the Ming.

Ch'i Chi-kuang's "Mandarin Duck" squad formation was implemented as a direct result of dealing with the wako.

Japanese swordfighting techniques were incorporated into Chinese fencing systems, as a direct result of dealing with the wako.  These are documented in Chi-kuang's treatise, the Ji Xiao Xin Shu."

 

My point is simply to prove your wrong about them been a threat.

They clearly were a threat, Warhead, as established authors have shown.

 

And you've competely failed to understand the situation, the Wo kou never fought large imperial armies of the capital, what they faced was merely small coastal contingents, the small continents used the typical ming spear on wooden shafts, such formation are only effective when mass employed on large battlefields, in which the skirmishes against the wo kou wasn't. Because these small skirmishes usually only envolve several hundred people, the battle goes larely to hand to hand to hand in which the ming staff is at a disadvantage.

Apparently, you have failed to understand some things.  The spear has the initial advantage over shorter weapons, and polearms have universally been used because of their inherent advantage in this department.  Any modern-day Filipino martial artist with experience in the use of the sibat (staff), can tell you that. Spearmen were an integral part of the "Mandarin Duck" squad concept.  Some of the other elements of that unit, like the men equipped with the bamboo saplings, were intended to make use of the unskilled (but numerous) peasant manpower that the Chinese often relied on. 

You said the the wako were unorganized.  I have given you primary and secondary sources which state otherwise.  The very fact that the Chinese had to employ special tactics against fighting men who came from a sophisticated "blade culture" should show you that the wako were far from mere brigands.  The experiences of the Spanish with the wako should show you the same thing.

 

coupled with the fact that none of the ming troops possess any powerful artillery(which is one of the advantage of ming against Hedioshi's troops). Thats why Qi Ji guan adopted the bamboo spear to trap enemy's swords as well as adopting Wo kou sword technique to fight them on their own ground. Such weapon are NOT employed on large battlefield as with the case of the Korean war, powerful artillery and chainmailed cavalry were the standard troops in that war because they are imperial troops, the Wo kou raids faced none of these, its the coastal guards that use their own weapons to fight the wo kou. And Qi ji guan just adopted something useful.

He did what had to be done, against a skilled and ORGANIZED enemy.

Peace,

David

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
Back to Top
warhead View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 11:24

"Funny, the Spanish sources from the same period mention plenty of firearms too."

 

and did they mention volley rotation fire?

 

"The "armies of secondary qualities" used much of the same equipment and tactics as the "top notch troops".  In some aspects of warfare (guerrilla actions, etc), they were perhaps even better than their bretheren who engaged more in set-piece battles.  This isn't rocket science, Warhead.""

 

Prove they did. as for guerilla actions, funny because Hedioshi's troops also employed such tactics, against the Ming in the initial encounter, so you're wrong about not using it.

 

"Apparently, you have failed to understand some things.  The spear has the initial advantage over shorter weapons, and polearms have universally been used because of their inherent advantage in this department.  Any modern-day Filipino martial artist with experience in the use of the sibat (staff), can tell you that. Spearmen were an integral part of the "Mandarin Duck" squad concept.  Some of the other elements of that unit, like the men equipped with the bamboo saplings, were intended to make use of the unskilled (but numerous) peasant manpower that the Chinese often relied on.  "

 

Fail to understand what? I never said swords have the initial advantage. "Initial" advantage is only effective with powerful frontal attack, the Wo kou not only used hit and run to their advantage and engage easy hand to hand at the right moment. And most of these ming attacks eventually turn into scattered individual battles since the numbers aren't great, and in this packed fighting Wo kou swords are inevidably superior. The point is these ming troops are far from the same uality as the imperial troops so you have an invalid point.

 

"You said the the wako were unorganized.  I have given you primary and secondary sources which state otherwise.  The very fact that the Chinese had to employ special tactics against fighting men who came from a sophisticated "blade culture" should show you that the wako were far from mere brigands.  The experiences of the Spanish with the wako should show you the same thing."

 

I'm still waiting for your source on their organization, speculating on their fighting ability shows nothing.

 

"He did what had to be done, against a skilled and ORGANIZED enemy."

 

Again rpove it, show me what organization they used.

Back to Top
Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 557
  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 11:24

Warhead,

Originally posted by warhead

"Maximum range is largely irrelevant.  See my post above regarding the Spanish musket and Turkish bows."

 

The problem is the repeater is not designed for power. The purpose is to have enourmous amount of arrows reigning down to find opens and since its covered with poison a slight pierce would be fatal.

Yes, Payne-Gallwey mentions that.

 

"It's a far larger amount of territory to conquer, and using that to attempt to criticize European fighting prowess is pretty weak."

 

No on the contrast china proper is not as large as eastern europe during this time. The territorial extend of china proper is roughly 16 million sq miles, Eastern Europe's extend is over 2 million sq miles.

I had said,  "Well, I don't know if historical Mongols--like Prince Batu--would have agreed with your assessment there.  Batu became pretty nervous when dealing with the Hungarian knights at HTH range at the Battle of Mohi,  before Subotai came up.

And, they must have had at least some appreciation for European military prowess, as they hired knights and crossbowmen from time to time.  In fact, the unpleasant Mongol experience with Italian mercenary crossbowmen was very manifest at the siege of Szkesfehrvr (Stuhlweissenburg), which the Mongols abandoned after a spirited defense by the Italians.  Even Friar Carpini commented that the Mongols "feared" the crossbow."

 

"And you replied,

Quote:
Most of the crossbowmen that mongols employed are Chinese not Europeans. The Song crossbowmen had better trigger mechanism design and training along with formation. The various cities of Jin and Song held much larger mongol armies for a much long time inflicting heavy casualties on them. Europe is the furthest conquest of the mongols, yet it was still conquered with such little troops and relative ease on the battle field.

 I was speaking specifically about European military capability there, and it appeared you were offering a retort to that.  That's what led to our Mongol debate."

 

I did say those, and they are facts(with the exception of misunderstanding of the term "relative ease". Nothing I'm trying to prove.

Fair enough--again, apologies on my part if I misunderstood your point there.

 

"Because it's a part of Europe, and because the Mongols did have some experience (both good and bad) in dealing with Western Europeans--Templars, Italian infantry mercs, etc. "

 

Well, i was talking about the part of Europe that mongols did fight and conquer.

I was speaking about both.

 

"Sources?"

 

Needham's science and civilization in China volume 5, part 6, section 30

Could you give me the full quote?  Was this a composite-staved weapon?

Thanks,

David

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
Back to Top
warhead View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 11:25

"They clearly were a threat, Warhead, as established authors have shown."

 

no they are not, its ridiculous to say that Wo kou actually threatened the Ming, the best ming troops as well as the majority are in the north not against the wo kou because these are only secondary enemies and mere pests than threats.

Back to Top
warhead View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 11:27

"Could you give me the full quote?  Was this a composite-staved weapon?"

 

Its a chart of list of the range of different weapons, the crossbow is from the Tang dynasty. Most are not composite staved. The korean ones however was.

Back to Top
Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 557
  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 11:40

Warhead,

Originally posted by warhead

"Funny, the Spanish sources from the same period mention plenty of firearms too."

 

and did they mention volley rotation fire?

I honestly don't know--the Spanish accounts come from the exhaustive multi-volume Blair & Robertson history of the Philippine Islands, and I haven't seen all of them.

However, it's certainly possible.

 

"The "armies of secondary qualities" used much of the same equipment and tactics as the "top notch troops".  In some aspects of warfare (guerrilla actions, etc), they were perhaps even better than their bretheren who engaged more in set-piece battles.  This isn't rocket science, Warhead.""

 

Prove they did.

Given the nature of the wako raids in China and the Philippines, and the nature of the Spanish fighting against the Moros and other hostile Filipinos, I feel that skill in that type of warfare is self-evident.

 

as for guerilla actions, funny because Hedioshi's troops also employed such tactics, against the Ming in the initial encounter, so you're wrong about not using it.

I never said that guerrilla tactics weren't used by major armies--please don't misquote me.  All I said was that Spanish colonial troops and wako were probably better at it overall, which again should come as no surprise.

 

"Apparently, you have failed to understand some things.  The spear has the initial advantage over shorter weapons, and polearms have universally been used because of their inherent advantage in this department.  Any modern-day Filipino martial artist with experience in the use of the sibat (staff), can tell you that. Spearmen were an integral part of the "Mandarin Duck" squad concept.  Some of the other elements of that unit, like the men equipped with the bamboo saplings, were intended to make use of the unskilled (but numerous) peasant manpower that the Chinese often relied on.  "

 

Fail to understand what?

The nature of HTH combat with melee weapons.

 

I never said swords have the initial advantage. "Initial" advantage is only effective with powerful frontal attack, the Wo kou not only used hit and run to their advantage and engage easy hand to hand at the right moment.

Wrong.

Spears and other polearms can be used as individual combat weapons, in small skirmishes and the like.   "Short weapons" men in Europe used halberds, bills, and other polearms.  They were also used at sea.  A polearm user has the range advantage, and he can control the combative-engagement distance ("fencing measure" or ma-ai) better than an opponent armed with a shorter weapon (like a sword), unless the combat is taking place in cramped quarters (inside a pub or tavern, for instance). 

And most of these ming attacks eventually turn into scattered individual battles since the numbers aren't great, and in this packed fighting Wo kou swords are inevidably superior.

Ch'i Chi-kuang included spears specifically to outrange wako swords.  He included some swordsmen with dao and shield for close support, depending on the situation. 

 

The point is these ming troops are far from the same uality as the imperial troops so you have an invalid point.

So what were these elite "imperial troops" doing at this time?

 

"You said the the wako were unorganized.  I have given you primary and secondary sources which state otherwise.  The very fact that the Chinese had to employ special tactics against fighting men who came from a sophisticated "blade culture" should show you that the wako were far from mere brigands.  The experiences of the Spanish with the wako should show you the same thing."

 

I'm still waiting for your source on their organization, speculating on their fighting ability shows nothing.

I gave you primary sources, from Ch'i Chi-kuang himself, describing how they fought.  The general's words indicate organization--no speculation is necessary.

 

"He did what had to be done, against a skilled and ORGANIZED enemy."

 

Again rpove it, show me what organization they used.

I already did, bro. 

It's not my problem if you choose to ignore the facts.

Peace,

David



Edited by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
Back to Top
warhead View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 14:45

"Given the nature of the wako raids in China and the Philippines, and the nature of the Spanish fighting against the Moros and other hostile Filipinos, I feel that skill in that type of warfare is self-evident."

 

And as already pointed out, Wo kou did not have the high level of firearm that government armies have, its quite reasonable that warring troops that fought constant civil war for dominance over Japan is well better equippted than raiding pirates.

 

"I never said that guerrilla tactics weren't used by major armies--please don't misquote me.  All I said was that Spanish colonial troops and wako were probably better at it overall, which again should come as no surprise."

This is not something unusual for an army of inferior equipment, when they can't engage armies of better quality, they resort to guerilla tactic. This is done by Vietnamese and the PRC army. 

 

"The nature of HTH combat with melee weapons."

 

No i didn't

 

"Wrong.

Spears and other polearms can be used as individual combat weapons, in small skirmishes and the like.   "Short weapons" men in Europe used halberds, bills, and other polearms.  They were also used at sea.  A polearm user has the range advantage, and he can control the combative-engagement distance ("fencing measure" or ma-ai) better than an opponent armed with a shorter weapon (like a sword), unless the combat is taking place in cramped quarters (inside a pub or tavern, for instance). "

 

Wrong, the fight is in cramped quarters most of the time as I already mentioned, the wo kou are the ones that choose where to fight, the fight on boats and melee between Ming and Wo kou mostly end up in tight battles. And its not just a theory, its proven by the fact that Wo kou swords proven to be vicotorious, and ming had to change part of its army especially to train in the wo kou sword style.

 

"Ch'i Chi-kuang included spears specifically to outrange wako swords.  He included some swordsmen with dao and shield for close support, depending on the situation. "

 

And he also used a lot of swords men and train them in wo kou sword technique which is not done before.

 

"So what were these elite "imperial troops" doing at this time?"

 

In the north guarding the wall against mongols.

Back to Top
warhead View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 14:46

"I gave you primary sources, from Ch'i Chi-kuang himself, describing how they fought.  The general's words indicate organization--no speculation is necessary."

 

No, all it indicate was their training and swordsmith, no organization

 

"I already did, bro. 

It's not my problem if you choose to ignore the facts.

Peace,"

 

no you didn't, so its very much your problem to show me what organization they claim rather than assume they had a good one.

Back to Top
warhead View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 14:59

"I honestly don't know--the Spanish accounts come from the exhaustive multi-volume Blair & Robertson history of the Philippine Islands, and I haven't seen all of them.

However, it's certainly possible."

 

Certainly possible is not enough, you have to be certain with proven sources since you claimed the imperial Japanese troop would loose to Spain's, and I doubt they did because rotation fire is only done with army of high quality in Japan, its very skeptical that some poor brigand could have the money to muster a large amount of musket to be able to perform such formations, not to mention the cery fact that Qi Ji guan record they use archers and little on muskets proves that their main weapon is archery and not musket let alone the complex and well drilled volley rotation fire.

Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 17:17

Originally posted by Landsknecht Doppelsldner

Batu's reservations were hinted at when Mongol parties were ambushed by Austrian troops under Duke Frederick.  The successful defense of Szkesfehrvr by the Italian mercs was doubtlessly noted as well.

I've never heard that, where you have that from?

Back to Top
TMPikachu View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 14-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 154
  Quote TMPikachu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 21:02

I stand by the theory that if you're going to call your assailant the "Hammer of God" and a plague upon your people, divine punishment, etc.

It means they are pretty hard dudes.

 

 

it's also true that crossbows are great against the mongols. The Song and other Chinese had for centuries known that, saying that "what the nomad fears most is the crossbow".

 

And I also just figure... a force with less men, less advanced tactics, less experience(with fighting nomad horsemen) and less technology (no explosives or cannons) would be easier to beat than one of those rivals-from-the-beginning-of-history that have been warring with you for, well, a really really long time.

 

 

But in the end, Knights are still super-cool

Mongols are still super-cool.

Europe still kicks the rest of the world's ass 1800's up to the 21st century.

 

 

 

What we need is a good space Alien invasion to bring us all together!

 



Edited by TMPikachu
Back to Top
TMPikachu View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 14-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 154
  Quote TMPikachu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 21:06

Originally posted by Cywr

The spiritual leader of Europe, the Pope, doesn't call just anyone "Hammer of God"


That was Atilla surely?

Nah, Mongols. Read it in a book. Two books.

Atilla was compared to divine punishment though, I think. He just wasn't God's hammer.

Back to Top
JanusRook View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2419
  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 21:26
He was the Scourge of God come to punish all of mankind. Or something like that.
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
Back to Top
Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 557
  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 00:40

Warhead,

Originally posted by warhead

"I honestly don't know--the Spanish accounts come from the exhaustive multi-volume Blair & Robertson history of the Philippine Islands, and I haven't seen all of them.

However, it's certainly possible."

 

Certainly possible is not enough, you have to be certain with proven sources since you claimed the imperial Japanese troop would loose to Spain's, and I doubt they did because rotation fire is only done with army of high quality in Japan, its very skeptical that some poor brigand could have the money to muster a large amount of musket to be able to perform such formations, not to mention the cery fact that Qi Ji guan record they use archers and little on muskets proves that their main weapon is archery and not musket let alone the complex and well drilled volley rotation fire.

First of all, you're misquoting me again--I never claimed that "imperial Japanese troops would lose to Spain's" (though I do think it was possible).  What I did was reply to TongShanThaiHiung, when he stated:

Originally posted by TongShanThaiHiung

And please do not assume that European will always win in the melee attack because the European Knight or Roman Legion never fight with something like Korean, Khitan, Jurchen, Japanese, Tibetan or Chinese Heavy Cavalry/Infantry who were also good in melee attack.

My reply was:

"Europeans did fight against the samurai--in the 16th century.  The Spanish in the Philippines had to deal with Sino-Japanese pirates (wako) often, during the 1570s and 1580s.  The fact that the Spanish had firearms is a moot point, because the wako had them too!  The fighting involved a mixture of missile weapons (arquebuses and bows) and melee weapons (polearms and swords). 

And the Spanish won."

As I have already indicated, there were samurai within the ranks of the wako, and they fought with the same type of weapons (swords, spears, naginata, arquebuses, etc).

 

Secondly, Ch'i-Chi-kuang's "record" is not the only one which describes the wako, so your declaration that "their main weapon is archery and not the musket" doesn't hold up under fire (pun very much intended).  Here's a Spanish account of fighting in the Philippines in the 1580s, which offers a considerably different picture:

"Most Illustrious and Excellent Sir: I do not know whether the letters with new information which the governor is writing today will arrive in time to go on this ship, which has been dispatched to this port of Acabite; so I wish to give your Excellency notice of what is going on. Yesterday St. Johns Day in the afternoon, there arrived six soldiers who had gone with Captain Juan Pablo de Carrion against the Japanese, who are settled on the river Cagayan. They say that Juan Pablo sailed with his fleet which comprised the ship Sant Jusepe, the admirals galley, and five fragatas from the port of Bigan, situated in Ylocos, about thirty-five days journey from Cagayan. As he sailed out, he encountered a Chinese pirate, who very soon surrendered. He put seventeen soldiers aboard of her and continued his course. While rounding Cape Borgador, near Cagayan one fair morning at dawn, they found themselves near a Japanese ship, which Juan Pablo engaged with the admirals galley in which he himself was. With his artillery he shot away their mainmast, and killed several men. The Japanese put out grappling-irons and poured two hundred men aboard the galley, armed with pikes and breastplates. There remained sixty arquebusiers firing at our men. Finally, the enemy conquered the galley as far as the mainmast. There our people also made a stand in their extreme necessity, and made the Japanese retreat to their ship. They dropped their grappling-irons, and set their foresail, which still remained to them. At this moment the ship Sant Jusepe grappled with them, and with the artillery and forces of the ship overcame the Japanese; the latter fought valiantly until only eighteen remained, who gave themselves up, exhausted. Some men on the galley were killed, and among them its captain, Pero Lucas, fighting valiantly as a good soldier. Then the captain, Juan Pablo, ascended the Cagayan River, and found in the opening a fort and eleven Japanese ships. He passed along the upper shore because the mouth of the river is a league in width. The ship Sant Jusepe was entering the river, and it happened by bad fortune that some of our soldiers, who were in a small fragata, called out to the captain, saying to him: Return, return to Manila! Set the whole fleet to return, because there are a thousand Japanese on the river with a great deal of artillery, and we are few. Whereupon Captain Luys de Callejo directed his course seaward; and although Juan Pablo fired a piece of artillery he did not and could not enter, and continued to tack back and forth. In the morning he anchored in a bay, where such a tempest overtook them that it broke three cables out of four that he had, and one used for weighing anchor. He sent these six soldiers in a small vessel to see if there was on an islet an water of which they were in great need. The men lost their way, without finding any water; and when they returned where they had left their ship they could not find it they met with some of those Indians who were in the galley with Juan Pablo, from who, it was learned that Juan Pablo had ascended the river two leagues and had fortified himself in a bay; and that with him was the galley, which had begun to leak everywhere, in the engagement with the Japanese. The Indian crew was discharged on account of not having the supplies which were lost on the galley. Most of these men went aboard the Sant Jusepe. They said that the Japanese were attacking them with eighteen champans, which are like skiffs. They were defending themselves well although there were but sixty soldiers with the seaman, and there were a thousand of the enemy, of a race at once valorous and skilful..."

Note how the Japanese had large numbers of arquebusiers. They fought the Spanish to the mainmast of the galley, but were then driven back--it reminds one of the vicious HTH fighting at Lepanto in 1571 between the Christians (Spanish, Venetian, and Papal troops) and the Muslims (Turks and Barbary Corsairs). Note also that, despite this victory, the Spanish had an obvious respect for the Japanese (just as they respected the Turks).

"...The six soldiers came with this news, and on the way they met a sailor who had escaped from a Sangely ship which had sailed from here. With supplies of rice for Juan Pablo. He says that the Sangleys mutinied at midnight and killed ten soldiers who were going with it as an escort, who had no sentinel. This one escaped by swimming, with the aid of a lance that was hurled at him from the ship. Moreover, I have just detained some passengers who were going on this ship, because there are no troops on these islands, and a hundred soldiers have to go immediately as a reenforcement, although the weather is tempestuous. I expect to be one of them, if the governor will give me permission. These enemies, who have in truth remained here, are a warlike people: and if your Excellency do not provide by this ship, and reenforce us with a thousand soldiers, these islands can be of little value. May your Excellency with great prudence provide what is most necessary for his Majestys service, since we have no resource other than the favor your Excellency shall order to be extended to us. The governor was disposed to send assistance to the ship, which was a very important affair; but after these events he will not be able to do it, because there do not remain in this city seventy men who can bear arms. May our Lord guard the most illustrious and excellent person of your Excellency and increase your estate, as you Excellencys servants desire. From Cabite, June 25, 1582. Moat excellent and illustrious sir, your servant kisses your Excellencys hands."
JUAN BAPTISTA ROMAN

Perhaps the above account will give you a more complete picture of who the wako were, and what they were capable of.

Peace,

David

 

 



Edited by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
Back to Top
Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 557
  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 01:02
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Landsknecht Doppelsldner

Batu's reservations were hinted at when Mongol parties were ambushed by Austrian troops under Duke Frederick.  The successful defense of Szkesfehrvr by the Italian mercs was doubtlessly noted as well.

I've never heard that, where you have that from?

James Chambers, The Devil's Horsemen--The Mongol Invasion of Europe.

Chambers describes Szkesfehrvr (the ancient burial place of the Hungarian Kings) as "Stuhlweissenburg" (the German name for the same town).

The Austrians under Frederick had been victorious in a couple of skirmishes with the Mongols (one in which the mysterious English ex-Templar with the Mongol Army had been captured).  Frederick challenged two of the Mongol prisoners to single combat--he skewered one with his lance, and chopped off the arm of the other with his sword.

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
Back to Top
Chono View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: Mongolia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 105
  Quote Chono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 08:00
Wow, an english templar? He must've joined in Syria or something.
Back to Top
demon View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Brazil
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1185
  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 09:10
Bah, 3 turtle ships would wreck 150 Spanish armada becasue turtle ships were ironclad (I'm talkin about 1500's)
Grrr..
Back to Top
warhead View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 12:56

"My reply was:

"Europeans did fight against the samurai--in the 16th century.  The Spanish in the Philippines had to deal with Sino-Japanese pirates (wako) often, during the 1570s and 1580s.  The fact that the Spanish had firearms is a moot point, because the wako had them too!  The fighting involved a mixture of missile weapons (arquebuses and bows) and melee weapons (polearms and swords). 

And the Spanish won."

As I have already indicated, there were samurai within the ranks of the wako, and they fought with the same type of weapons (swords, spears, naginata, arquebuses, etc)."

 

But he never mentioned the japanese. But since you didn't claim it, you seem to mean it when you said Spain won. 

 

"Secondly, Ch'i-Chi-kuang's "record" is not the only one which describes the wako, so your declaration that "their main weapon is archery and not the musket" doesn't hold up under fire (pun very much intended). "

No but all other ming records record the same thing.

Back to Top
warhead View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 13:20

"Here's a Spanish account of fighting in the Philippines in the 1580s, which offers a considerably different picture"

 

Now that its clear, it proves even less, the battle was faught on sea or attacking a fortification rather than on the ground, tactics employed on sea is vastly different from organization on ground. In such cases, both Qi Ji Guan and Yi sun Shin have annililated far greater odds against wo kou boats.It also mentions sant jusepe overcame the Wo kou ship with artillery. The wo kou boat that fought obviously lacked artillery. Whuile the spanish record of those other ships that did have "plentity of artillery" doesn't show that they actually fired it, nor were they destroyed, they just didn't take the ship.

 

 

"Perhaps the above account will give you a more complete picture of who the wako were, and what they were capable of."

 

The equipment of the wo kou is probably different from Qi Ji guan's time to this. But obviously this battle still doesn't show that Wo kou army is anything on the level of firepower and organization that Nobunaga's army is. The fight doesn't indicate any organization whatsoever. Its too shallow to indicate any view on their comparison with the official Japanese troops.

 

 

Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 14:57
Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Landsknecht Doppelsldner

Batu's reservations were hinted at when Mongol parties were ambushed by Austrian troops under Duke Frederick.  The successful defense of Szkesfehrvr by the Italian mercs was doubtlessly noted as well.

I've never heard that, where you have that from?

James Chambers, The Devil's Horsemen--The Mongol Invasion of Europe.

Chambers describes Szkesfehrvr (the ancient burial place of the Hungarian Kings) as "Stuhlweissenburg" (the German name for the same town).

The Austrians under Frederick had been victorious in a couple of skirmishes with the Mongols (one in which the mysterious English ex-Templar with the Mongol Army had been captured).  Frederick challenged two of the Mongol prisoners to single combat--he skewered one with his lance, and chopped off the arm of the other with his sword.

 

mmmh, don't have that book, any other source that mantions abotu this event? and on what primary sources is this based on?

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 11>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.