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Topic ClosedShort history of MACEDONIA

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Short history of MACEDONIA
    Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 00:17

Yiannis why don't you check this out: http://allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=319&PN=1

Also, you can't just post pictures like that and say they're greek... they could just as well be persian, etc. Also I don't know if you took this into consideration but don't you think it's hard to draw blond hair on yellow or light surfaces. The fact that they painted the peoples hair black doesn't prove anything. If they would of painted it purple, would you say there were people with purple hair?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 02:35

Please don't tell me there is any doubt that the pictures posted are in fact Greek?  Do we need provenace on each? 

Statue - Terracotta Statue of Zeus (Olympia, c. 470 BC).

1)  Minoan Dancer - fresco from the palace of Knossus 16th cent BCE  http://www.ou.edu/finearts/art/ahi4913/aegeanhtml/minoan.htm l

2) Cycladic

3)  Mycenean

4)  Classical vase  - white ground - Athenian woman

I am sure that Yiannis can fill in provenance for the rest if need be.

All are easily identifiable as portraits from several periods in ancient Greek and Minoan art.   The wall paintings, vase paintings and statuary Yiannis provided are classic examples.  Ancient Greeks often (usually) painted their statuary and life like colors were used.  Even on statuary where weathering has removed all of the visible color, it is often possible for researchers to find which colors were used on the originals - portraits of blonde and light haired people were a great rarity.  Wall paintings are similar - their use of color was vivid and realistic.

Vase painting was one of the few art forms where realistic color was not used until much later - the vase paintings were usually red ground or black ground with monochromatic figures.  From the advent of classical white ground pottery (from around 460 BCE) (Athenian woman - above) a variety of color used in vase painting.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 02:51

As to the discussion of Macedon and who is Macedonian today - this ground has been so very much over discussed - it is in fact banned at many historical websites. 

The best Alexander the Great site on the web http://www.pothos.org/alexander.asp opens their forum with the following announcement:

Quote:

This moderated forum is for discussion of Alexander the Great. Inappropriate posts will be deleted without warning. Examples of inappropriate posts are:

  • The Greek/Macedonian debate ...

Endquote

The discussion of the FYRoM has nothing to do with ancient Macedonia or any other ancient Greek city state. It is a contemporary political discussion.  As such - it does not IMO belong on this forum, but, as I believe has been suggested before, in modern history or general world history.  I respectfully request that the moderators and administrators consider moving this topic to the forum that they consider appropriate.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 21:16

Yiannis

 

What heck is your deal? What your language Macedonian, he didn't say anything wrong. Far as Im concerned GREEKS should be on thin ice. I too am very very aware of the Histories related to us all by Macedonian! Don't get your panties in a wad....

 

MACEDONIAN YOU ROCK!

 

Jamin

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 21:21

MACEDONIAN

 

 

PLEASE E-MAIL ME! Your my new bestfriend! Lets chatt, e-mail me at tPetrach7@aol.com">StPetrach7@aol.com my AOL Instant message is StPetrach7  I was gunna e-mail you but I can't find any contact information to you...

 

PLEASE CONTACT ME!

My name is Jamin prnounced (Jay-min)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 05:35
Originally posted by Rebelsoul

And while the Muslim minority in Greece thrived and is there even today, the Greek minority in Turkey was systematically wiped out, in three consecutive massacres followed by a flow of emigration (the remnants of the Greeks fled to avoid the fate of their friends and families who were killed).

 

you made it a habit to attack Turkey in every subject...well if you wanna discuss:

TheDiplomat is here...it is not my answer..The ''greek'' muslim will answer your allegation.

HERE IS TURKEY AND HERE IS GREECE

zkan HSEYN

                                                                                                              Mnich 19.05.2003
Our folklore group was disturbed, and hindered to partcipate the celebrations of Hdrellez (Festival of welcoming spring) in West Thrace on the date of May 6,2003 by Greek Security Forces.

This happenning occured in West Thrace is protested and mails is sent to condemn by many associations.

Even though it is not mentioned , it must be clearly known that Greeks of Turkish nationality is living in Turkey within the limits of minority rights.

HERE IS TURKEY

Meanwhile, Greeks of Turkish nationality living in stanbul make activities of celebrations of their associations within the limitations of citizenship and minority rights according to rules of Lausanne Treaty in July 24 1923, Fener Greek Patriarchate in stanbul make many rites through out Turkey.

On May 11, 2003 Sunday an organization of cocktail, dinner, concert, reward and plaque ceremony was held by the support of Thedoros Angelopoulos ,who is a well-known bussinessman of Greece and one of the financers of Fener Greek Patriarchate. Many Greek and Turkish politicians and academicians participated the organization in stanbul Hilton Hotel, because of 250. year of the foundation of "Balkl Rum Hospital".
Fener Greek Patriach Bartholomeos organized a rite in Bergama on the date of May 8,2003 and then two more rites in Church of Saint Constantin and Church Eleni, which are located in rgp/Mustafapaa, on the date of May 18,2003.

HERE IS GREECE

The minority living within the limitations of citizenship and minority rights in West Thrace in accordance to the rules of Lausanne Treaty dated July 23 1923, is being obstructed while the celebrations of Hdrellez festival. Turkish Association of Iskece, the folklore group and the orchestra set out their way on May 6 2003 to Ilca to participate the festival of Hdrellez which was organized by Province Manager Hasana Nazr. They were stopped by the police in the oblugatory parking space. The police officials declared that it is not permitted to use the poster, in which " Hdrellez, Organized by ITB - Happy Spring Festival" in Turkish was written, make the orchestra enter the festival arena, and why didnt they write the poster in Greek even if they were one of its citizens. Also added that the entrance to the festival is posible only if the things stated before by General Secretary of Region, Commander of IV. Army Corps, and Chief of Police was fullfilled.

The Manager of ITB, etin Mandac, stated that the group wanted to enter the festival arena with the poster and on this context Rodop Parliment Galip Galip, Ahmet Mehmet and previous skece Parliment Birol Akifolu applied to necessary offices but couldn't obtain affirmative results.

Although the efforts, the gruop couldn't participate the organization, afterwards a meeting was done and it was decided to go back to Iskece.

According to the Lausanne Treaty it is compulsory to have schools giving education in Turkish for the minority and Turkish must be the first language in these schools.In this aspect, it is not posible to harmonize avoiding to celebrate a traditional festival just because of a poster in Turkish, indeed Bulgarian groups participate the celebration by singing Bulgarian songs, with good intention, Human rights or democracy.

We, as European West Thrace Federation, condemn the approach of Greece to our people and wish top have the same celebration right of Grreks of Turkish nationality in Turkey.

zkan HSEYN
Manager of Education and Cultural Branch of European West Thrace Federation
Manager of Munich West Thrace Turks Family Association
Responsible of Research Center of West Thrace Turks

ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 20:42
Whoa whoa whoa!

*cough*propaganda*cough*

I hope you guys know that people are paid to post Macedonian propaganda on the internet by the Macedonian government.

And 70% of Macedonia is Slavic, which, incidentally, speaks a dialect of Bulgarian, and has the same culture and traditions as Bulgarians.  25% of Macedonia is Albanian.

Guys, the differences in languages between Macedonian and Bulgarian is so little that I can understand in perfectly (I grew up in Sofia).

Tzar Samuil was a Bulgarian Tzar.  They have found stone tablets proving this.

The name Macedonia was always a region in Bulgaria.  Ancient Macedonia (Alexander the Great)  lies more to the south, in the borders of today's Greece.

These guys make me so mad!  They post the stuff on internet forums, and unknowingly, people get fooled into this whole crazy affair.

What I hate most about today's Macedonia is how it steals other countries history. 

Guys, please, don't listen to this guy....

http://makedonija.150m.com/

http://truth.macedonia.gr/

http://www.vmro.org/stari/
VMRO was the political drive to unite Bulgarian Macedonia (there is a Greek, Albanian, and a very small Serbian one, the Bulgarian one is by far the largest) with Bulgaria.

http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?focus=opi&opiid=570&a mp;a mp;a mp;PHPSESSID=ab90b31d59664803678122844a961dd3

http://www.lmp.ucla.edu/profs01.htm

http://strazny.com/encyclopedia/sample-language.html



From http://p083.ezboard.com/fbalkansfrm97.showAddReplyScreenFrom Web?topicID=271.topic&index=25 talking about articles in a 1911 encyclopedia, links below

Backing up This map



Features on this map proven true by articles in the 1911 encyclopedia:

-Turks in Northern Bulgaria
-Romanians in the Timok River valley
-Romanians in Western Banat
-Romanians in Bessarabia
-Greeks in costal Asia minor
-Cyprus being over 2/3 Greek
-Aegean Islands being Greek
-Coastal Thrace being Greek
-Albanians in south-central Greece
-Bulgarians in northern Aegean Macedonia
-Turks in Greece
-Vlachs in Greece
-South Epirus having an Albanian minority
-Albanians of western Vardar Macedonia
-Bulgarians of Thrace
-Bulgarians in B and T
-Kurds of Eastern Turkey
-Armenians of East-Central Turkey (to 1915)

Bulgaria:

Quote:
The population according to race cannot be stated with absolute accuracy, but it is approximately shown by the census of 1901, which gives the various nationalities according to language as follows :Bulgars, 2,888,211, Turks, 531,240; Rumans, 71,063; Greeks, 66,635; Gipsies (Tziganes), 89,549; Jews (Spanish speaking), 33,661; Tatars, 12,884; Armenians, 14,581; other nationalities, 30,451.



Banat:

Quote:
The Banat had in 1900 a population of 1,431,329 inhabitants. According to nationality there were 578,789 Rumanians, 362,487 Germans, 251,938 Servians and 170,124 Magyars.



Timok Valley:

Quote:
More than four-fifths of this number belong to the Serbo-Croatian branch of the Slavonic race; while the remainder is composed of about 160,000 Rumans, 47,000 gipsies, 8000 Austro-Hungarians and Germans, and 5,000 Jews. Many Servian emigrants returned, after 1878, to the territories which the Treaty of Berlin restored to their country. These territories had been occupied, under Turkish rule, by Albanians, west of the Morava, and by Bulgarians, along the Nishava; but, after 1878, the Albanians withdrew, and the Bulgarians were absorbed. The Rumans reside principally in the north-east, near the borders of their native land, and are peasant farmers, like the Serbs.



Macedonia:

Quote:
The purely Greek population of Macedonia may possibly be estimated at a quarter of a million.

The Mahommedan population is mainly composed of Turks (about 500,000). In addition to these there are some 130,000 Bulgars, 120,000 Albanians

The Vlachs of Macedonia possibly number 90,000, of whom only some 3000 are Mahommedans.

The whole Slavonic population of Macedonia may be estimated at about 1,150,000, of whom about 1,000,000 are Christians of the Orthodox faith. The majority of these own allegiance to the Bulgarian exarchate

Almost all independent authorities, however, agree that the bulk of the Slavonic population of Macedonia is Bulgarian.



Albanians of Greece:

Quote:
The Albanian population extends over all Attica and Megaris (except the towns of Athens, Peiraeus and Megara), the greater part of Boeotia, the eastern districts of Locris, the southern half of Euboea and the northern side of Andros, the whole of the islands of Salamis, Hydra, Spetsae and Poros, and part of Aegina, the whole of Corinthia and Argolis, the northern districts of Arcadia and the eastern portion of Achaea. There are also small Albanian groups in Laconia and Messenia.

The Albanian population, estimated at 200,000 by Finlay in 1851, still probably exceeds 120,000. It is gradually being absorbed in the Hellenic population. In 1870, 37,598 persons (an obviously untrustworthy figure) were returned as speaking Albanian only. In 1879 the number is given as 58,858.



Vlachs of Greece:

Quote:
They are found principally in Pindus (the Agrapha district), the mountainous parts of Thessaly, Othrys, Oeta, the mountains of Boeotia, Aetolia and Acarnania; they have a few settlements in Euboea.

The Vlach population, which has been increased by the annexation of Thessaly, numbers about 60,000.



Costal areas being Greek:

Quote:
The Greeks, whose mmgration from Asia Minor took place in pro-historic times, are, next to the Albanians, the oldest race in the Peninsula. Their maritime and commercial instincts have led them from the earliest times to found settlements on the sea-coast and the slands. They inhabit the Black Sea littoral from Varna to the Bosporus, the shores of the Sea of Marmora and the Aegean, the Aegean archipelago, the mainland of Greece, Epirus and the western islands as far north as Corfu. In Constantinople they probably exceed 300,000. They are seldom found in large numbers at any great distance from the sea, and usually congregate in the principal towns and commercial centres, such as Adrianople, Constantza, Varna and Philippopolis; there are also detached colonies at Melnik, Stanimaka, Kavakly, Niegush and elsewhere. The Greek inhabitants of the Peninsula and adjacent islands probably number 4,500,000.


Cyprus:

Quote:
The population of Cyprus in 1901 was 237,022, an increase of 27,736 since 1891 and of 51,392 Since 1881. The people are mainly Greeks and Turks. About 22% of the population are Moslems; nearly all the remainder are Christians of the Orthodox Greek Church.



Bulgarians:

Quote:
The Bulgars, who descend from a fusion of the Slavonic element with a later Ugro-Finnish immigration, inhabit the kingdom of Bulgaria (including Eastern Rumelia), parts of the Dobrudja and the greater part of Macedonia, except Old Servia and the Aegean littoral. Apart from their colonies in Bessarabia and elsewhere, they may be reckoned at 4,400,000.

The Berlin Treaty boundary was far from corresponding with the ethnological limits of the Bulgarian race, which were more accurately defined by the abrogated treaty of San Stefano (see below, under History). A considerable portion of Macedonia, the districts of Pirot and Vranya belonging to Servia, the northern half of the vilayet of Adrianople, and large tracts of the Dobrudja, are, according to the best and most impartial authorities, mainly inhabited by a Bulgarian population.



Bessarabia:

Quote:
BESSARABIA, a government of south-west Russia, separated on the W. and S. from Moldavia and Walachia by the Pruth, and on the E. and N. from the Russian governments of Podolia and Kherson by the Dniester; on the S.E. it is washed by the Black Sea. Area, 17,614 sq. m.

It consists of various races, nearly one-half (920,919 in 1897) being Moldavians, the others Little Russians, Jews (37 % in the towns and 12% in the rural districts), Bulgarians (103,225), Germans (60,206) ,with some Gypsies(Zigani),Greeks, Armenians, Tatars and Albanians.



Armenians:

Quote:
Full and fairly accurate statistics are available for a considerable portion of Asiatic Turkey. Out of a population of 13,241,000 (1896) in Armenia, Kurdistan and Asia Minor, 10,030,000 were returned as Mahommedans, 1,144,000 as Armenians, 2,818,000 as other Christians, and 249,000 as Jews. There are also about 300,000 Druses and about 200,000 Gipsies.



47.1911encyclopedia.org/S/SE/SERVIA.htm

28.1911encyclopedia.org/B/BU/BULGARIA.htm

36.1911encyclopedia.org/M/MA/MACEDONIA.htm

95.1911encyclopedia.org/G/GR/GREECE.htm

76.1911encyclopedia.org/B/BE/BESSARABIA.htm

60.1911encyclopedia.org/T/TU/TURKEY.htm

72.1911encyclopedia.org/C/CY/CYPRUS.htm

14.1911encyclopedia.org/B/BA/BALKAN_PENINSULA.htm

12.1911encyclopedia.org/B/BA/BANAT.htm



We already had a discussion about this on the old boards too, I think....


Edited by vagabond
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 14:07

some notes on the first map: those so called Wends are in fact the famus Sorbs, the Slavic minority of Germany.

and there's really no difference between Alemanns and Swabians, only different dialects which are called Alemann and Swabian, but both terms refer to the same thing...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 09:38
Ah
To anyone that is not from the balkan:
Isnt it obvious ...
Macedonia always fighted for freedom. Always wanted to unite the world. And than again, its in the middle of the balkan. And our neighbours just want to devide it among them. Well it will never happen my friends. Macedonia survived every chalenge. So dont even try to say that i am not Macedonian. In my blood runs the blood of Aleksandar. Slavic people? HA. Tell me what means Slavjani.

Claiming that Macedonians are bulgarians, is stupidity. Bulgarians are of turk origin, Macedonians not.
The fact that bulgaria has a lot of non turks is another point. Maybe its the otherway ... maybe Bulgaria should rename itself as Macedonia, and we will let the turkish minority to call themselvs bulgars.

Claiming that Macedonia is greek is even more stupid. There is not a single map that shows Macedonia as part of Greece before 1913. And yeah, photoshop is not the right way of publishing maps. so stop it.

And to the greeks and bulgars. Stop runing propaganda. If its a history forum, than read the history, dont write some non-sense and make up stories about imaginitive history. Let Macedonians in the part you have occupied to live freely. We will not go to war for the parts of our land that are not part of free Macedonia. Dont worry. WE will unite in united Europe.

Remember, thats what Aleksandar wanted. United WORLD. The same we want today.

P.S. About the map, take the map of Macedonia dated 1903 from France. Its map of the MACEDONIAN state, with MACEDONIAN people. Stop this stupid propaganda.

If someone wants facts about Macedonia, i invite him/her to be my guests. Let them see with their own eyes and than he can say whatever he/she wants.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 23:49
Can u stop reviving OLD posts? Its getting annoying.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 05:31

Originally posted by JasSum

  So dont even try to say that i am not Macedonian. In my blood runs the blood of Aleksandar. Slavic people? HA.

I don't say anything, your people do:

Macedonia's former president Kiro Gligorov in the Toronto Star on March 15, 1992 said: "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (AD)."

 

In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, Macedonia's Ambassador to Canada said: "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian" and that "there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country."

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 12:28
There have been certain fallacies circulating for the past few years due to ignorance on the “Macedonian Issue”. It is exacerbated by systematic propaganda emanating from AVNOJ, or communist Yugoslavia and present-day FYROM, and their intransigent ultra-nationalist Diaspora.
Fallacy #1
The inhabitants of The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (The FYROM) are ethnic Macedonians, direct descendants of, or related to the ancient Macedonians.

Fact #1
The inhabitants of The FYROM are mostly Slavs, Bulgarians and Albanians. They have nothing in common with the ancient Macedonians. Here are some testimonies from The FYROM’s officials:



b. Also, Mr Gligorov declared: "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia… Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" (Toronto Star, March 15, 1992).

c. On 22 January 1999, Ambassador of the FYROM to USA, Ljubica Achevska gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. In answering questions at the end of her speech Mrs. Acevshka said: "We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great … Greece is Macedonia’s second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nemitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language”.



e. Moreover, the Foreign Minister of the FYROM, Slobodan Casule, in an interview to Utrinski Vesnik of Skopje on December 29, 2001, said that he mentioned to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria, Solomon Pasi, that they "belong to the same Slav people.”
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 12:59
Anyone who things there's one nation in the world (exept perhaps nations who live on a remote island) that did not change and intermarry with others the last 2500 is clearly crazy. Yes, many modern day (FYRo)Macedonians are probably descendants of Alexander. But many Greeks are as well. And (FYRo)Macendonians are descendants of Slavs as well. Does anyone seriously think the Slavs arrived there and didn't intermarry with local people for all those years? Or that the Ancient Macedonians (Whatever ethnicity they had) didn't intermaary with other people that lived in or went through Macedonia the past 2500 years?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 14:35
Ok...hypothetically speaking...let's say the Macedonians on this forum are spreading propaganda...hypothetically...

Then what would be the plus to the FYROM  for spreading such "propaganda"?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 17:51
Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon

Ok...hypothetically speaking...let's say the Macedonians on this forum are spreading propaganda...hypothetically...

Then what would be the plus to the FYROM  for spreading such "propaganda"?


asserting its national identity?

bragging rights for conquering most of the known world?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 18:49
" conquering most of the known world?"
- No, once is enough as i think :}}

"The inhabitants of The FYROM are mostly Slavs, Bulgarians and Albanians."
First, there are not bulgarians in MAcedonia, except tourists, buisness man, and offcourse their ambassador.
Second Albanians in macedonia mostly camed from kosovo in the last 50 years (serbian politics of cleaning kosovo)
Third Slavs .... all slavic nations today have some name. So, wake up from your dreams. We have no other name but Macedonians. What Aleksandar was? Well acording to your idea that if there are some hellenic monuments here that he was hellen, thats like some English on this forum to claim that we are all english coz we are speaking the language, using a lot of the anglo-saxon culture.
Get serios man, he was never greek, he fighted them. His generals were not greeks but Macedonians. He reffered to the people as Macedonians and greeks. that is making difference.

So dear adminsitrator. Would you be so kind and PM those that insult me here (including yourself)?

P.S. The staemant given by president gligorov was such just greece to stop the embargo to Macedonia. You should read his books where he said that it was just a show for you. Because you are still acting as little kids. Crying for toys that aint theirs, and claming that they are.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 18:52
Oh i forgot something.
There are no pure nations, exept greeks, as its in their constitution, and as the country states ... there are no minorities in greece.
Turks can back me up on this to proove that its true.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 19:04
Originally posted by Murph

Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon

Ok...hypothetically speaking...let's say the Macedonians on this forum are spreading propaganda...hypothetically...

Then what would be the plus to the FYROM  for spreading such "propaganda"?


asserting its national identity?

bragging rights for conquering most of the known world?
 


Why assert a national identity that isn't theirs?  There has got to be a greater political motive to it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 19:05

Originally posted by JasSum

"  thats like some English on this forum to claim that we are all english coz we are speaking the language, using a lot of the anglo-saxon culture.
Get serios man, he was never greek, he fighted them. His generals were not greeks but Macedonians. He reffered to the people as Macedonians and greeks. that is making difference.

And Athenians considered themselves Athenians, and Spartans Spartans. Athenians in their minds did not equal Spartans. This stupid "just because you speak a language doesnt mean your its nationality" arugment is getting old. There were no slavs yet, so there was no slavic language. thats all.

Get serios man, he was never greek, he fighted them.

Heres a suggestion, spellcheck. Yes, its possible for fellow greeks to fight fellow greeks. Nowhere in ancient history was he ever called Aleksandar or whatever ridiculous way you put it.

I am done making comments on this "Macedonian" issue. You have a serious identity crisis going on, and you seem to need to prove it to other people. Maybe you need to prove it to yourself first.

Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 19:30

As a temporary measure to prevent any further escalation of the situation I am putting a lock on this and any other thread that is on the verge of all out war. The lock will be removed after tempers have cooled and the Moderating team has decided if further action is necessary Thank- you for your co operation

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